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 raiden wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The marines were designed to protect humans, not replace them. A Chapter needs a steady supply of young males to make new marines after all. The process requires years of surgery, testing, indoctrination - and regular medical attention to keep the new organs working within acceptable parameters. Keep your human charges alive and reasonably healthy or go extinct.

If the marines were intended to replace humanity they would have been designed so they could breed more marines. Probably with enhanced-design females of some sort - maybe not designed for heavy combat but super tough at the very least.

actually, the new BA fluff has them put the blood of their primarch (or diluted blood) into the new serfs, put them in those fancy growth chambers for about a year, and viola, new BA space marines.

Consuming second hand Primarch blood then being put in a magical surgery coffin for a year to become a Blood Angel? Isn't that the way it has been since Angels of Death (if not before)?

Wait, they drink the blood of the original, go into a coffin, and wake up a blood angel?

Space Vampires...

 Crazyterran wrote:
Wait, they drink the blood of the original, go into a coffin, and wake up a blood angel?

Space Vampires...

Pretty much, yea. This blatant Space Vampire shout-out has existed for a very long time for Blood Angels, IIRC.

 Harriticus wrote:
It's actually the opposite. Emprah intended to eventually do away with the Astartes as he did the Thunder Warriors, and have humans like Malcador manage things.

Mind you Guilliman wanted to give a planet to each of his sons. And I'm iffy at best if he got time to abdicate as Fulgrim came along not long after the HH ended.

It has been clearly stated in multiple novels that the Space Marines are just tools of war. Humanity itself would govern Humanity.

Space Marines would only conquer and defend. Period.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
From what I see the discussion should rather be about what Empy wanted to do with the Space Marines. Robute Guilliman thought they were more than mere weapons, and were there to rule and guide the humans. Leman Russ and other Primarches thought they were just weapons. And Empy has a history of discarding tools no longer useful.

I personally hope he planned for something better as many of the legions even Primarches was psychopaths (even before they met), and you have that atrocious rate of teenage boys dying on operating-tables trying to make even one Space Marine, but that can have been better back in the days.

No Guilliman didn't think that at all, it's why he made the other Primarchs after himself abdicate from ruling and installed the High Lords.

except he did, at least for a time, belive space marines could fine a role in post crusade administration, but I'm not sure he expected that to be the case for ALL Legions. but rather he wanted to build the ultramarines into a legion that DID have peace time uses, so that when the fighting stopped. his sons would have something they could "retire into" in short I think Gulliman was thinking ahead to the classic problem of "what do you do when your soldiers return home from the war and know only war?"

I think the thousand sons, salamanders, iron hands, imperial fists, and several other legions would of been able to retire. The Son's of Horus were shown to be quite good at diplomacy before their fall from grace.

But the Warhounds/World Eaters, would of been destroyed, along with the Night Lords, and several other legions would of ceased to be useful as well.

The Thousand sons would of served as scholars. But I don't think the Emperor would get rid of them, instead he just let them phase out and kill any that would be surbverisive IE (Abbadon and several others who would of rebelled.)

It would of been a very different story if the Emperor had been successful, and had warned his kids about the warp, and what he was planning on doing.

 Asherian Command wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
From what I see the discussion should rather be about what Empy wanted to do with the Space Marines. Robute Guilliman thought they were more than mere weapons, and were there to rule and guide the humans. Leman Russ and other Primarches thought they were just weapons. And Empy has a history of discarding tools no longer useful.

I personally hope he planned for something better as many of the legions even Primarches was psychopaths (even before they met), and you have that atrocious rate of teenage boys dying on operating-tables trying to make even one Space Marine, but that can have been better back in the days.

No Guilliman didn't think that at all, it's why he made the other Primarchs after himself abdicate from ruling and installed the High Lords.

except he did, at least for a time, belive space marines could fine a role in post crusade administration, but I'm not sure he expected that to be the case for ALL Legions. but rather he wanted to build the ultramarines into a legion that DID have peace time uses, so that when the fighting stopped. his sons would have something they could "retire into" in short I think Gulliman was thinking ahead to the classic problem of "what do you do when your soldiers return home from the war and know only war?"

I think the thousand sons, salamanders, iron hands, imperial fists, and several other legions would of been able to retire. The Son's of Horus were shown to be quite good at diplomacy before their fall from grace.

But the Warhounds/World Eaters, would of been destroyed, along with the Night Lords, and several other legions would of ceased to be useful as well.

The Thousand sons would of served as scholars. But I don't think the Emperor would get rid of them, instead he just let them phase out and kill any that would be surbverisive IE (Abbadon and several others who would of rebelled.)

It would of been a very different story if the Emperor had been successful, and had warned his kids about the warp, and what he was planning on doing.

Okay if this is the case then I would demur.

The Sallies govern and take charge of individual villages and such at their home-planet in such a way that the Ultramarines seems extremely distant.

The Imperial Fists was Empy's Praetorian Guard, and would be held in place.

The Iron Hands were actually decent people.

I guess Peturbo, Mortarion and Angron would have to be eliminated along with maybe the Russ, but he could still have his uses even in a more utopian universe.

You obviously brain-farted when it came to the Thousand Sons and Word Bearers so I'm gonna guess and take it that you mean to keep the Word Bearers as scholars and such while the Thousand Sons was likely intended to work about the Webway with their Primarch, but I'm not sure as I can't read your mind.

You obviously brain-farted when it came to the Thousand Sons and Word Bearers so I'm gonna guess and take it that you mean to keep the Word Bearers as scholars and such while the Thousand Sons was likely intended to work about the Webway with their Primarch, but I'm not sure as I can't read your mind.

Well The Word bearers maybe. They would of kept the imperial creed and imperial truth.

The two chapters could switch around and are comfortable in either setting.

I don't see four of the primarchs ever being normal or ever being accepted.

The Night Lords could be a potent weapon to keep any possible revolutions/coups in check. Not sure why Perturabo and Mortarion would have to go? Angron would have to be put down I think, or contained.

I'd like to think the Emperor wasn't planning to just kill all the Primarchs/Space Marines. I kind of think it would be bad publicity to kill all the soldiers who just won the Galaxy for you. Imagine if governments killed soldiers after a war, I don't think that would go down very well...

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords could be a potent weapon to keep any possible revolutions/coups in check. Not sure why Perturabo and Mortarion would have to go? Angron would have to be put down I think, or contained.

I'd like to think the Emperor wasn't planning to just kill all the Primarchs/Space Marines. I kind of think it would be bad publicity to kill all the soldiers who just won the Galaxy for you. Imagine if governments killed soldiers after a war, I don't think that would go down very well...

Not sure why Perturbo? He basically butchered a tenth of his chapter because they didn't adhere closely enough to his tactics, which was meatgrinder.

You already have the more easily controlled Space Wolves instead of the Night Lords. So there you sort of go. Plus Night Hauler assaulted Dorn when the latter went to discuss a disturbing dream the former had with him.

I hope Empy were gonna loose them somehow as their recruitment alone makes even the best of them an inhuman monster. But I'm willing to entertain thoughts about which he could have had alive.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords could be a potent weapon to keep any possible revolutions/coups in check. Not sure why Perturabo and Mortarion would have to go? Angron would have to be put down I think, or contained.

I'd like to think the Emperor wasn't planning to just kill all the Primarchs/Space Marines. I kind of think it would be bad publicity to kill all the soldiers who just won the Galaxy for you. Imagine if governments killed soldiers after a war, I don't think that would go down very well...

Not outright kill, but drastically lower their recruitment rates, and keep them in the fight so they are slowly and surely killed off. Just like Thunder Warriors.

But I think that Space Marines would have been around after the Great Crusade. Maybe not all Legions, but at least some of them.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords could be a potent weapon to keep any possible revolutions/coups in check. Not sure why Perturabo and Mortarion would have to go? Angron would have to be put down I think, or contained.

I'd like to think the Emperor wasn't planning to just kill all the Primarchs/Space Marines. I kind of think it would be bad publicity to kill all the soldiers who just won the Galaxy for you. Imagine if governments killed soldiers after a war, I don't think that would go down very well...

Not outright kill, but drastically lower their recruitment rates, and keep them in the fight so they are slowly and surely killed off. Just like Thunder Warriors.

But I think that Space Marines would have been around after the Great Crusade. Maybe not all Legions, but at least some of them.

I'm onboard there. It would be silently phasing them out. Let them deplete their numbers letting legion after legion die out over a prolonged period of time, not just one day saying. "My esteemed legionaries and Primarches. I have grown tired of you, so please just throw yourself at the nearest object that can pierce your armour."

@Ashiraya

I don't see any advantages that Space Marines have over normal humen beside their combat prowess. They need constant medical attention to remain healthy and balanced. They need reproductive help (not such a big deal if cloning is well developped). You need humen to make Marines, etc. Why would the Emperor replace the entire humen race for Space Marines?

The Emperor nearly lost his empire, his life and humanity itself because he was the crappiest father, leader and warlord the galaxy could imagined. So maybe his next plan was indeed at the same level of idiocy than the first one. So maybe you make a point here, but I am still not convinced.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords could be a potent weapon to keep any possible revolutions/coups in check. Not sure why Perturabo and Mortarion would have to go? Angron would have to be put down I think, or contained.

I'd like to think the Emperor wasn't planning to just kill all the Primarchs/Space Marines. I kind of think it would be bad publicity to kill all the soldiers who just won the Galaxy for you. Imagine if governments killed soldiers after a war, I don't think that would go down very well...

Not sure why Perturbo? He basically butchered a tenth of his chapter because they didn't adhere closely enough to his tactics, which was meatgrinder.

You already have the more easily controlled Space Wolves instead of the Night Lords. So there you sort of go. Plus Night Hauler assaulted Dorn when the latter went to discuss a disturbing dream the former had with him.

I hope Empy were gonna loose them somehow as their recruitment alone makes even the best of them an inhuman monster. But I'm willing to entertain thoughts about which he could have had alive.

That's not exactly why he did it; they already pretty much did the whole meat grinder thing before, and that wasn't even his preferred tactics anyway - he rebelled because he was frustrated with constantly being worn into the ground through siege after siege. He'd be good to keep around to garrison worlds and fortify stuff.

I'd say the Night Lords would be more effective maybe, just the mention of them and the planetary governor would stop any thoughts of rebelling. I'd get rid of Curze though yeah. He's too broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords could be a potent weapon to keep any possible revolutions/coups in check. Not sure why Perturabo and Mortarion would have to go? Angron would have to be put down I think, or contained.

I'd like to think the Emperor wasn't planning to just kill all the Primarchs/Space Marines. I kind of think it would be bad publicity to kill all the soldiers who just won the Galaxy for you. Imagine if governments killed soldiers after a war, I don't think that would go down very well...

Not outright kill, but drastically lower their recruitment rates, and keep them in the fight so they are slowly and surely killed off. Just like Thunder Warriors.

But I think that Space Marines would have been around after the Great Crusade. Maybe not all Legions, but at least some of them.

I'm onboard there. It would be silently phasing them out. Let them deplete their numbers letting legion after legion die out over a prolonged period of time, not just one day saying. "My esteemed legionaries and Primarches. I have grown tired of you, so please just throw yourself at the nearest object that can pierce your armour."

Okay yeah that makes more sense. I didn't think about it that way.

Perturabo would have been good to keep around, he wanted to build stuff not wage wars.

Amoras wrote:
Perturabo would have been good to keep around, he wanted to build stuff not wage wars.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. He'd be a fantastic architect in peace time.

Amoras wrote:
Perturabo would have been good to keep around, he wanted to build stuff not wage wars.

True. He wanted to be an archiectect and it would of been interesting to see if he became a businessman and/or a rogue trader that builds stuff really really well. That would be kind of awesome warhammer 40k the far future.... there is only. Economics. Angron is now a consultant for the Adeptus Angrus. Lorgar is now a Scholar for the Adminstratum, The thousand sons act as webway guardians, tending to it and hunting any demons they ever find. The Son's Of horus act as the national guard in times of great need, Horus is still Warmaster, but as wars are no longer happening he serves at terra aiding his father in adminstrative duties. Leman Russ now runs the largest brewery in the galaxy. Dorn is still the prateorn guard of Terra, but has aided in building up the worlds of the imperium. Corax now aides in hunting down any traitors in the imperium. Robute Gulliman aides the lord of terra and has successful helped adminstrate manadates throughout the whole galaxy. The Night lords now are vilganties and are constantly hunted. The Lion is now the second in command of the Military but is currently thinking of retiring. Sangunius is currently the reprenestive of the Emperor. Jaghanti Khan now runs a shipping business. Alpharius now leads the secret police. Mortatrion teaches children how to read. Ferrus Manus now leads in technological advancement.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Perturabo would have been good to keep around, he wanted to build stuff not wage wars.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. He'd be a fantastic architect in peace time.

Problem is Dorn did it better and without being a psychopath.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lords could be a potent weapon to keep any possible revolutions/coups in check. Not sure why Perturabo and Mortarion would have to go? Angron would have to be put down I think, or contained.

I'd like to think the Emperor wasn't planning to just kill all the Primarchs/Space Marines. I kind of think it would be bad publicity to kill all the soldiers who just won the Galaxy for you. Imagine if governments killed soldiers after a war, I don't think that would go down very well...

Not sure why Perturbo? He basically butchered a tenth of his chapter because they didn't adhere closely enough to his tactics, which was meatgrinder.

You already have the more easily controlled Space Wolves instead of the Night Lords. So there you sort of go. Plus Night Hauler assaulted Dorn when the latter went to discuss a disturbing dream the former had with him.

I hope Empy were gonna loose them somehow as their recruitment alone makes even the best of them an inhuman monster. But I'm willing to entertain thoughts about which he could have had alive.

That's not exactly why he did it; they already pretty much did the whole meat grinder thing before, and that wasn't even his preferred tactics anyway - he rebelled because he was frustrated with constantly being worn into the ground through siege after siege. He'd be good to keep around to garrison worlds and fortify stuff.

I'd say the Night Lords would be more effective maybe, just the mention of them and the planetary governor would stop any thoughts of rebelling. I'd get rid of Curze though yeah. He's too broken.

Look at any fluff, the Iron Warriors specialized in that kind of warfare. Had Perturbo been different things might have changed, but stuff werren't different. Dorn was a stern and unforgiving person, Pertburbo downright brutal I'm sorry, but rarely has this setting a more clearcut view of a good guy (Dorn) and an evil guy (Perturbo), and you still for reasons that I can't fathom still defend that guy?

He is a builder? Sure.

But so is Dorn. And without decimating the work-force or sacrificing so many builders that the builders would revolt. How do you think Perturbo would build stuff? I think he would use the same tactics as the people of Qatar (just look up World-Cup 2022) would use when building something. And that's pretty damn terrifying to think about.

For my take on FIFa watch John Oliver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJEt2KU33I at the end is a description of Qatari-building-methods.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
From what I see the discussion should rather be about what Empy wanted to do with the Space Marines. Robute Guilliman thought they were more than mere weapons, and were there to rule and guide the humans. Leman Russ and other Primarches thought they were just weapons. And Empy has a history of discarding tools no longer useful.

I personally hope he planned for something better as many of the legions even Primarches was psychopaths (even before they met), and you have that atrocious rate of teenage boys dying on operating-tables trying to make even one Space Marine, but that can have been better back in the days.

No Guilliman didn't think that at all, it's why he made the other Primarchs after himself abdicate from ruling and installed the High Lords.

except he did, at least for a time, belive space marines could fine a role in post crusade administration, but I'm not sure he expected that to be the case for ALL Legions. but rather he wanted to build the ultramarines into a legion that DID have peace time uses, so that when the fighting stopped. his sons would have something they could "retire into" in short I think Gulliman was thinking ahead to the classic problem of "what do you do when your soldiers return home from the war and know only war?"

As were Sanguinius and Fulgrim. Hell, that was half the reason Fulgrim fell to Chaos; too much of the finer things.