Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2015/01/31 08:23:41
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets (Battle Report Completed)
Just got the new Necron codex and it isn't even 20 minutes and I am already playing my 1st game with them. I haven't even finished reading the codex yet. Honestly, I don't know what is a good Necron build currently, but I did not run the new Decurion, partly due to my unfamiliarity with it and partly because it took up a lot of points! So I finally decided to go with what I was familiar with - the Mephrit Dynasty detachment (from the Exterminatus campaign supplement). I knew wraiths would be good in this edition and so I decided to give them a try (also because I had the models). This is not a full-blown Wraithwing list. Rather, it is a semi-wraithwing list with only 2 units of wraiths but no Destroyer Lords. This is also just an experimental game to re-familiarize myself with the changes to some of the units, so please forgive me for some of the mistakes that I will probably make in this game. As for my opponent, he is practicing with a list that he is thinking about taking to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT.
In the short amount of time before my game (less than half an hour, I didn't want to keep my opponent waiting for too long), I just couldn't come up with a competitive Decurion army build that I was satisfied with. The Core is just soooo expensive. Take an Overlord with Warscythe, 2x10 warriors in night scythes, 1 unit of immortals in night scythe and 1 unit of 5 tomb blades with upgrades and I am already at 955-pts!!! Holy Sh*t! That didn't give me very many points to play with for the rest of my army, and so I just said screw it! I decided to just run the Mephrit Dynasty Necrons from the Exterminatus supplement (of which you need 1 HQ and 3 troops minimum).
I'm not 100% happy with this list. Heck, I'm not even 75% happy with it. There are a lot of holes that needed to be filled, but rather than waste too much time to build my list, I just decided to try out a few units that I thought were interesting. First of all, I wanted to see how much the Catacomb Command Barge has changed. I know that he is nowhere near as good, but he could still be invaluable for his speed and his ability to tank incoming shots.
And then, of course, there are the wraiths. They are probably now arguably one of the best units in the codex, so of course, I had to see for myself how good they are. Tomb blades are another unit that has gotten much, much better and so I threw 1 unit in. Then there is the Transcendent C'tan, which I took mainly just for sh*ts and giggles. He is no where near a competitive choice but still, I had to give him a try. Finally, I threw in some night scythes because, well, I still need mobility and their firepower is always useful.
Overall, this is just a very early draft of my army which I put together in about 20-minutes. In my opinion, it is semi-competitive but it is no where near the force that my previous AV13 Oldcrons once was.
I think my opponent's army will give me some problems list-wise. He's got more flyers and they are arguably better (my night scythes have always had problems against stormtalons for some reason). He's got 15 ObSec units. I've got none. I do have a couple of advantages over my opponent however. I am going 2nd and we are playing the Scouring, where he has 5 Fast Attacks to my 3. Other than that, it's going to be up to my generalship to see whether I can pull off the win here.
Space Marines:
I shall keep my opponent anonymous as per his request. Instead I shall just refer to him as opponent Spam-X due to the type of food he likes to eat in the morning. He is somewhat new with his army, only having played it 3 times prior, but this is definitely one of the armies that he is considering for the LVO.
Matchup-wise, his list is potentially a nightmare for my Newcrons to handle. Soooo many Objective Secured units and a whole bunch of flyers against a Necron army with very little shooting. I really need a lot more shooting to play against this type of army, but it is what it is. I will have to rely on Assault.
And his firepower is just downright scary. Those stormtalons put up so much dakka as a group that they can potentially kill off 1 unit of wraiths a turn. The fact that they can infiltrate and are going first means that Spam-X will have the guaranteed alpha-strike. That is actually a large concern of mine. He has a very good chance of getting First Blood and also, with all of his ObSec units, he has a good chance of taking Primary as well, especially if he plays the denial game. Even though I am going 2nd, I won't be able to last-turn contest any of his ObSec units.
As for the generalship, my opponent is a teammate of mine so he is a decent general. He has never been able to beat my Oldcrons before, but with a new codex comes new opportunities (for my opponent to beat me, that is). My list is only about 60% optimized in my opinion. I feel that Spam-X's list is about 80% optimized. So I will have to outplay my opponent to get the win this game. It definitely won't be an easy battle for my Newcrons, but that is fine. I will relish the challenge.
Spam-X deploys his Warlord, Cassius and Tyrannic War Vets on top of Objective #1 on top of the ruins.
My Warlord trait actually helps him in this game. He is going for a denial strategy as well and thus, my Warlord trait will help to keep his units off the table. He decides to outflank with all of his tacticals (Ravenguard units have Scout).
I am concerned about my opponent's potential alpha-strike, and so I leave everything in Reserves with the exception of my Warlord. Now this is a somewhat risky move, because if he can kill my Warlord on Turn 1, then I will be tabled.
Tomb blades and wraiths will deepstrike. I actually make a mistake here, not realizing that my C'tan could deepstrike as well. Thus, I opt to walk him in from my table edge (in Hammer & Anvil deployment no less).
I apologize, but I forgot to take the notes for the Maelstrom objectives. I will go off of my memory with regards to the Maelstrom objectives.
Round 1, Marines need to kill a unit and grab Objective #2. Necrons need to grab 2 of the objectives (I believe #2 and #3).
Flyers fly forwards.
Shooting - and that is 20 twin-linked S6 rending shots and 15 S7 shots, all hitting on BS5 - ends up taking off 2W from my Overlord. 2+/4+ followed by a 5+ makes my CCB (Catacomb Command Barge) really survivable to most normal shooting.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
My CCB moves flat-out to grab Maelstrom Objective #2.
I get 1 Maelstrom VP this turn. My opponent gets none.
Maelstrom VP's - Necrons: 1, Space Marines: 0
Space Marines 2
Spoiler:
This turn, we both get an objective and kill-1-unit for our Maelstrom objectives.
3 of his rhinos come in - 1 to the left flank (from my perspective)....
....and 2 to my right. Both of the right rhinos move in onto objectives.
Stormtalons go for round 2....
....and for the 2nd turn in a row, my Warlord survives! However, my opponent did manage to pen the Quantum Shielding on my CCB, thus brining it down to AV11.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
C'tan comes in. My opponent just gave him a target now. I shoot at his rhino with a D shot but only manage to do 1HP of damage.
More importantly, all 3 of my night scythes come in.
Finally, I get the tomb blades and 1 unit of wraiths.
Shooting only takes out 1 stormtalon, though I do force the other 2 to jink.
First Blood to Necrons.
Tomb blades lob blasts onto my opponent's Warlord's unit. However, I roll poorly, not landing a single direct hit, and his bunched-up command squad survives with only 2 casualties.
CCB charges and wrecks a rhino. The melta combat-squad then gets pinned.
Spam-X only gets 1 objective this turn. I kill a unit and grab an objective for 2 VP's this turn.
Maelstrom VP's - Necrons: 3, Space Marines: 1
Space Marines 3
Spoiler:
I believe Spam-X gets 1 objective and kill 1 unit for his Maelstrom objectives while I get kill 2 units for mine.
4th rhino comes in. The other rhino moves away from my C'tan.
All of his stormtalons fly off the table.
Cassius and unit come down from their lofty perch and prepare for assault.
Tacticals go to help out against the wraiths.
Shooting does minimal damage (as in 0).
Cassius and his unit then assault my wraiths.
My wraith attack rolls are craptastic (hitting only 4 times)! I believe he does 1W to one of my wraiths only.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Tomb blades go after the combat squad.
Bargelord goes after the other combat squad.
C'tan goes after the rhino.
He gets Sky of Falling Stars and proceeds to wreck the rhino with shooting.
Tomb blades wipe out the combat squad.
My bargelord charges, killing 1 marine with his Hammer of Wrath.
He then kills another 3 marines in close combat and loses 1HP to a krak grenade.
I continue to roll poorly with my wraiths. I only kill 1 marine and lose 2W (1 wraith) in return.
Spam-X does not kill a unit. He does, however, grab 1 objective for 1 Maelstrom VP. I get 2-VP's for killing 2 units.
Maelstrom VP's - Necrons: 5, Space Marines: 2
Space Marines 4
Spoiler:
The last rhino comes in and the combat squads inside disembark.
2 stormtalons go after my C'tan.
The other 2 talons go after my tomb blades.
Shooting only manages to kill 2 jetbikes.
However, they would then fall back.
Talons also take off 2W from my C'tan. Fortunately, my opponent wasn't rolling very well to wound, because I did not pass a single save with the C'tan.
In assault, my CCB Overlord finishes off the lone marine and consolidates.
Wraiths finally finish off my opponent's command squad, thus giving me Slay the Warlord.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Night scythes come back in.
Last unit of wraiths come in. Jetbikes regroup.
Wraiths go after 1 combat squad. My CCB goes after the other.
Night scythes shoot down 1 talon and take off the TL-assault cannon from the other.
C'tan shoots down 3 marines.
He then makes the charge.
As a matter of fact, all 3 of my units do.
C'tan wipes out his unit of 2 marines.
Bargelord dies to a krak grenade before he even gets a chance to swing.
Wraiths only manage to kill 2 marines.
I believe I get 1 objective this turn (for killing 1 unit) and my opponent gets 2 (for taking 2 objectives).
Maelstrom VP's - Necrons: 6, Space Marines: 4
Space Marines 5
Spoiler:
Marines scramble for the objectives.
Empty rhino moves flat-out to reach the other 3-pt objective.
His flyers go after my flyers. The talon with the destroyed assault cannon flies off the table.
This is so embarrassing. My C'tan dies to bolter-fire from 3 combat squads (one of which was out of rapid-fire range). He did not make a single Invulnerable save all game.
The 2 talons take off 2HP's from the middle night scythe.
Combat squad then charges the wraiths to tie them up in combat.
Unfortunately for him, I make up for the poor saves on the part of my C'tan with hot rolling in the combat with his marines. I get 4 rends, killing off 1 combat squad and sending the other one packing.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
Unit of 6 immortals disembark (btw, they are actually running Gauss). If I can take out the unit of 3 marines (2 died in the explosion of the C'tan), I can take the 3-pt Scouring objective.
Scythe goes after 1 rhino here....
....and another one there.
Out comes my other immortals and onto the 2-pt objective. However, I need to kill his ObSec rhino in order to claim it.
Tomb blades jump onto Objective #1 for the Maelstrom objective + Scouring objective + Linebreaker. I lose 1 blade to dangerous terrain.
Wraiths prepare to multi-assault both the rhino and the combat squad.
My opponent has been rolling extraordinarily well this entire game. 12 S5 shots only manage to kill 1 marine (he made 6 out of 7 saves).
Night scythe finishes off this rhino.
The other rhino, however, survives due to 4+ cover from the ruins.
I then multi-assault the rhino and the tacticals with all of my wraiths.
I wipe out both units and consolidate back onto the 2-pt and 3-pt objectives.
We both get 2 VP's this turn, both for killing 1 unit and grabbing an objective.
Maelstrom VP's - Necrons: 8, Space Marines: 6
I then roll to see if the game continues and it does not.
My Necrons take the Maelstrom Secondary for 3-pts.
We each have a 1-pt, 2-pt and 3-pt objectives. However, I get +2 VP's for killing 2 of my opponent's Fast Attacks. Thus, I take the Primary 8-6 as well.
Finally, I get First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker. My opponent only takes Linebreaker and Warlord. Necrons win it 10-2.
Crushing Victory to the Metallic Dead - Necrons!!!
First of all, I'd like to apologize for a mistake I made in this game. I forgot for a brief moment that wraiths were no longer Jump Infantry. (Actually, I was reading the entry for Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers and got them mixed up with the wraiths.) In any case, the wraiths should not have been able to deepstrike in. Now that was both a blessing and a curse for my opponent. It was a curse because his flyers had no viable target initially. However, it was also a blessing because my 2nd wraith unit did not come in until Turn 4 and basically couldn't do anything until Turn 5.
Am I happy with my list? Not really. I'm finding there to be holes that I am having a hard time trying to fill up. Wraithspam is a very unbalanced Necron build and you have to give up a lot to run them. Granted, wraiths are very good, but I am finding my shooting to be woefully underpowered compared to previous. Moreover, my anti-air is a lot worse than it used to be and I have to rely on the very expensive (and nerfed) night scythes to do so. And this isn't even the Decurion detachment, where there may be even more holes to fill due to the amount of "fat" that is usually in that detachment/those formations.
As good as wraiths are, they still suffer from the same weakness that they had before. They are still vulnerable to Volume-of-Fire, which some of the top armies like Mechdar and Tau can pack a lot of. T5 helps, but when the majority of the shooting is S6/7, it is only marginal. That was why I reserved my wraiths against my opponent's stormtalons....they can really put the hurt on with the amount of BS5 S6/7 shots in their arsenal. I also miss the 2+ tanking HQ units that used to run with my wraiths. They are the real secret to making the wraithstar work. Now, at most I can only include one of these guys.
My opponent did make a couple of tactical mistakes in this game. First and foremost:
This was a big no-no. Fortunately for my opponent, he rolled really well with his jink saves and only lost 1 flyer, but you really don't want to put your flyers in such a position to get alpha-struck by the enemy flyers. The problem was compounded also by the fact that we were playing the Scouring and talons are Fast Attack choices.
Secondly, he gave my C'tan a target. He was trying to hide his rhino behind BLOS (blockin-LOS) terrain, but he forgot about my C'tan coming in from Reserves.
Lastly, when his stormravens came in, they went after my C'tan. While this wasn't a huge mistake, it did hurt him because:
1) It set up his 2 stormtalons to get beta-struck by my night scythes coming in next turn.
2) He should have sent them to go after my tomb blades. With 4 stormtalons, there was a good possibility of them wiping out my tomb blades for 1 Scouring VP. Also, by going after my tomb blades, he could have positioned them in a way that my night scythes wouldn't have been able to beta-strike them when my flyers came in. Basically, this move was a potential 2-pt swing. He could have potentially killed 1 of my Fast Attacks and also deny me from killing one of his Fast Attacks.
With more experience playing flyer armies, he should get better, but his inexperience with them really cost him in this game.
As for the my Necron units, here is my evaluation of them:
Catacomb Command Barge:B+. He soaked up a ridiculous amount of firepower in this game....but then died to a krak grenade in close combat. As a bullet-soaker, this guy is a God. But when it comes to actual offense, he is a bit underwhelming. He killed a rhino and 1 combat squad so he really didn't pull his weight in the offense department. However, soaking in firepower from 10 stormtalons and keeping them on the table more than made up for the lack of killiness. But to be fair, he did lose his Quantum Shielding. Had he not done that, he would have done great offensively as he would have been immune to the krak grenades.
Immortals:C+. No change from before. Now, these guys are the defacto troop choice if you want to go MSU.
Night Scythes:B. The role of the night scythe hasn't changed all that much. IMO, it is still a necessity in a Necron army. However, now it's just more expensive with a gun that is still good but not uber-good like it used to be. I'd grade the old Night Scythe an A. The new Night Scythe is just a step down but still a pretty good transport overall.
Transcendent C'tan:B. The jury is still out on this guy. I did make a mistake by not deepstriking him and I rolled so poorly for his saves (failed all of his saves) that I think he deserves a second shot. I don't see him as being a consistent contributor, and it is a bit risky fielding him against an army with so many S6/7 shooting, but I think that he can be a decent board control unit. He definitely strikes fear into the enemy, and if you run him with Godshackles and the Mephrit C'tan formation, I think he can be quite good. In any case, I am going to have to do some more playtesting with him.
Wraiths:A. These guys are for sure one of the All-Star units in the new Necron codex. They just got better in almost every aspect. T5, Fleet and now they strike at normal Initiative when charging through terrain (which would be I5 with whip coils)? Wow. I almost give this unit an A+ if not for the same old weakness that they had before - vulnerability to Volume-of-Fire attacks. Now without a tanking character to lead them, they will have problems against certain armies with high VoF. Also, the lack of re-rolls is still annoying. While the Destroyer Lord has gotten slower in a sense, I still feel that adding the D-lord to a unit of wraiths makes the unit even better overall. Next time, I will give that combo a try.
Tomb Blades:A. This unit has really impressed me with its shooting. A 3+ T5 jetbike with 5+ RP/FNP and either +1 cover save or Ignore Cover and who can fire a S6 blast....all for 23-24 pts? This unit is a steal! In the game, it took out a couple of Tyrannic War vets and a combat squad. However, that was due to poor rolling on my part (not a single direct hit against my opponent's command squad with 7 blasts!) as well as a little bad luck (failing Morale and falling back, thus denying them 1 turn of shooting). This unit is one with a huge upside at a fraction of its previous costs. I definitely highly recommend this unit. I don't think you should spam them, but at least 1 unit in every army provides a lot of utility.
MVP:Wraiths. They definitely did the most damage in this game, and that was only with 1 unit of wraiths. The other unit did not contribute at all until Turn 5 and even then, their contribution wasn't really necessary. So with just 1 unit of wraiths (and the help of the bargelord), I basically secured an entire flank. I can only imagine the carnage they could have potentially done had I deployed both units on the table.
The bargelord (Catacomb Command Barge) would be a close runner-up for MVP. The amount of punishment he withstood was just phenomenal. It was because of him leading the stormtalons why my flyers were able to get the beta-strike against them. And although he died to a krak grenade, it was because of all the shooting that he withstood. You will need to change how you run him in the new edition, but he can still contribute positively to the army.
This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2015/02/02 23:06:41
I reckon a minor SM victory. The Necrons are good, but look to be lacking numbers and firepower. If the C'tan rolls well, it could swing easily but as it stands, I don't see how the Necrons can round up all the marine units, stop the rhinos or contest enough. I anticipate C'tan dying turn 2, game ending turn 6 with ~5 wraiths intact but marines straggling around too many objectives. Will be interested in performance of the CCB and tomb blades especially - I'm almost certain the C'tan will be an early write off (something with less average firepower than the monolith does not impress me).
2015/01/31 12:41:55
Subject: Re:1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
There are limitless options of things to build in codexes. People do not always need to bring the "strongest build EVAR!!!!". Nor should they be mocked for playing something different. It is a game. The purpose of it is to have fun. Not curb stomp peoples faces all the time.
Now that being said... Looking forward to reading this. I may get a swing at the new book today as well.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2015/01/31 14:00:31
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
I didnt read that at him mocking it at all, more of a surprise. And its definitely a strong build centered on spam, so maybe its not necessarily built for fun and no curb stomping.
In the short amount of time before my game (less than half an hour, I didn't want to keep my opponent waiting for too long), I just couldn't come up with a competitive Decurion army build that I was satisfied with. The Core is just soooo expensive. Take an Overlord with Warscythe, 2x10 warriors in night scythes, 1 unit of immortals in night scythe and 1 unit of 5 tomb blades with upgrades and I am already at 955-pts!!! Holy Sh*t! That didn't give me very many points to play with for the rest of my army, and so I just said screw it! I decided to just run the Mephrit Dynasty Necrons from the Exterminatus supplement (of which you need 1 HQ and 3 troops minimum).
I'm not 100% happy with this list. Heck, I'm not even 75% happy with it. There are a lot of holes that needed to be filled, but rather than waste too much time to build my list, I just decided to try out a few units that I thought were interesting. First of all, I wanted to see how much the Catacomb Command Barge has changed. I know that he is nowhere near as good, but he could still be invaluable for his speed and his ability to tank incoming shots.
And then, of course, there are the wraiths. They are probably now arguably one of the best units in the codex, so of course, I had to see for myself how good they are. Tomb blades are another unit that has gotten much, much better and so I threw 1 unit in. Then there is the Transcendent C'tan, which I took mainly just for sh*ts and giggles. He is no where near a competitive choice but still, I had to give him a try. Finally, I threw in some night scythes because, well, I still need mobility and their firepower is always useful.
Overall, this is just a very early draft of my army which I put together in about 20-minutes. In my opinion, it is semi-competitive but it is no where near the force that my previous AV13 Oldcrons once was.
I think my opponent's army will give me some problems list-wise. He's got more flyers and they are arguably better (my night scythes have always had problems against stormtalons for some reason). He's got 15 ObSec units. I've got none. I do have a couple of advantages over my opponent however. I am going 2nd and we are playing the Scouring, where he has 5 Fast Attacks to my 3. Other than that, it's going to be up to my generalship to see whether I can pull off the win here.
Space Marines:
I shall keep my opponent anonymous as per his request. Instead I shall just refer to him as opponent Spam-X due to the type of food he likes to eat in the morning. He is somewhat new with his army, only having played it 3 times prior, but this is definitely one of the armies that he is considering for the LVO.
Matchup-wise, his list is potentially a nightmare for my Newcrons to handle. Soooo many Objective Secured units and a whole bunch of flyers against a Necron army with very little shooting. I really need a lot more shooting to play against this type of army, but it is what it is. I will have to rely on Assault.
And his firepower is just downright scary. Those stormtalons put up so much dakka as a group that they can potentially kill off 1 unit of wraiths a turn. The fact that they can infiltrate and are going first means that Spam-X will have the guaranteed alpha-strike. That is actually a large concern of mine. He has a very good chance of getting First Blood and also, with all of his ObSec units, he has a good chance of taking Primary as well, especially if he plays the denial game. Even though I am going 2nd, I won't be able to last-turn contest any of his ObSec units.
As for the generalship, my opponent is a teammate of mine so he is a decent general. He has never been able to beat my Oldcrons before, but with a new codex comes new opportunities (for my opponent to beat me, that is). My list is only about 60% optimized in my opinion. I feel that Spam-X's list is about 80% optimized. So I will have to outplay my opponent to get the win this game. It definitely won't be an easy battle for my Newcrons, but that is fine. I will relish the challenge.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 17:10:18
Eyjio wrote: I reckon a minor SM victory. The Necrons are good, but look to be lacking numbers and firepower. If the C'tan rolls well, it could swing easily but as it stands, I don't see how the Necrons can round up all the marine units, stop the rhinos or contest enough. I anticipate C'tan dying turn 2, game ending turn 6 with ~5 wraiths intact but marines straggling around too many objectives. Will be interested in performance of the CCB and tomb blades especially - I'm almost certain the C'tan will be an early write off (something with less average firepower than the monolith does not impress me).
Well, the best way to keep him (the C'tan) alive would be to reserve him.
Marine hordes are actually quite good, especially now that most armies are trending away from ObSec units. And his Spamtalons formation is really damn good. I've been thinking about running the Tyrannic War Vet formation myself.
Iechine wrote: I didnt read that at him mocking it at all, more of a surprise. And its definitely a strong build centered on spam, so maybe its not necessarily built for fun and no curb stomping.
Right. It is actually a very strong army. ObSec is soooo under-estimated. Marines and mechdar are 2 of the best ObSec armies in the game today.
There are limitless options of things to build in codexes. People do not always need to bring the "strongest build EVAR!!!!". Nor should they be mocked for playing something different. It is a game. The purpose of it is to have fun. Not curb stomp peoples faces all the time.
Now that being said... Looking forward to reading this. I may get a swing at the new book today as well.
His army is actually quite good. It isn't build so much to curb-stomp the opponent as it is to outlast the opponent in objectives missions.
Definitely check out the new Necron codex. Even though the units haven't really changed, the playstyle of the new dex is completely different from the old. Which means that if I had wanted to take the Newcrons to the LVO, I might have to re-design my army (listwise) from the ground up. That in itself will be a challenge to get done in time for the LVO.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dozer Blades wrote: I really like to see your new list since you have to experiment and not spam the best units... Far more interesting for me.
I think you'll do okay.
Yeah, I am going to enjoy the challenge. This reminds me of when the Tyranids came out in 6th. There were no clear obvious competitive builds and you really had to rely a lot on synergistic builds. I see the new Necrons sort of in the same situation, but it is a situation that I am already very familiar with.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 17:25:58
Frozocrone wrote: The Decurions that expensive as a base? Wow. May not be all the God-Tier people predict.
That said, jy2, what are your initial thoughts now that you have the Codex?
Looking forward to Newcrons in action!
No, it is far from a God-tier. It allows for a lot of variety, but overall, IMO, it is a NERF compared to the previous edition. There is just so many wasted points spent on "tax" units just to run any of the formations that overall army synergy/composition will suffer. I don't mean to sound negative, but any codex that has got me scratching my head trying to come up with a competitive build isn't going to be an army that will steamroll the opponents.
I really want to see you try a flayed one heavy list. Those things will even mulch an assaulting death company. It's ludicrous how great they are for their points. I'd field a couple with CCB back up for the reroll on moral and use them to swamp objectives. Maybe use a chronoscoprtek to make them even funnier. Use tomb blades for anti mech now. A 10 strong unit averages 3 HP's a turn on any non invuln protected vehicle.
I honestly think the three biggest winners besides the obvious wraiths are the flayed ones, praetorians and tomb blades.
Frozocrone wrote: The Decurions that expensive as a base? Wow. May not be all the God-Tier people predict.
That said, jy2, what are your initial thoughts now that you have the Codex?
Looking forward to Newcrons in action!
No, it is far from a God-tier. It allows for a lot of variety, but overall, IMO, it is a NERF compared to the previous edition. There is just so many wasted points spent on "tax" units just to run any of the formations that overall army synergy/composition will suffer. I don't mean to sound negative, but any codex that has got me scratching my head trying to come up with a competitive build isn't going to be an army that will steamroll the opponents.
Well on the one hand, so many things about the previous book NEEDED a nerf (ie flyer spam, mindshackles, CCB's, and just how cheap a lot of the AV13 stuff was). On the other hand, I'm also seeing a lot of completely unnecessary nerfs in this book as well-- Doom Scythes, the Royal Court, phase shifters and ressie orbs were all fine before.
The book is hardly off the shelves yet, though. I'm sure that experienced Necron players will figure it out and start dominating the tables again soon enough.
"Made a mistake" someone that unfamiliar with their codex should have a hard time doing well at the LVO. His list is easy to get first blood on, I suggest you reserve everything his stormtalons could easily kill and shoot for first blood if you go second, if you go first just get FB and pray you win secondary. You should be able to match him in primary seeing as he has a free 5 points towards it on the table. Rememeber also, a lot of stuff in the current meta has a problem with AV 13, so you might want to consider maybe more vehicles. I'm not sure how much wraiths cost, but would it be possible to get a squad of 7-8 then reserve the smaller squad? The way your list is now any opponent could focus out one 6-wraith squad, where as if you had a larger squad and then reserved the smaller one you are forcing your opponent to make a bad decision and focus down a unit they may or may not be able to kill.
Prediction
Primary: Necrons, off the back of a few failed marine leadership saves and a whole lot of dead Storm Chickens
Secondary: Tied, Neither of you have reliable mobility to be able to get across the board in H n A to be able to consistently deny Secondary points the entire game. You both will probably match in units killed and this is the LVO maelstrom mission with the most ties (all of the objectives are relatively easy to achieve). If I had to pick a winner I would give the edge to the Necrons, Rhinos can give up a lot of points and could lose the Marine player the game if the Cron player knows how to roll 4+
First Blood: Marines, Scouting rhinos and 5 flyers on the board with almost no Alpha strike on the opposing side in hammer and Anvil deployment? 'Nuff said.
Linebreaker: Both Players, I think if your list can't reliably get linebreaker then you should really consider re-writing it, or just not expect to win.
Warlord: Necrons, his warlord is an easy kill and he has no reliably safe place to put him. Your barge is actually tough to kill, as long as you don't let yourself get bogged down by marines in combat you should be ok. Unless CCB lost AV 13? If that is the case both players should get warlord.
Prediction: Necrons Victory 6-2
Necrons prove just how toothless naked marines are in a close game.
2015/01/31 21:33:56
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Red Corsair wrote: I really want to see you try a flayed one heavy list. Those things will even mulch an assaulting death company. It's ludicrous how great they are for their points. I'd field a couple with CCB back up for the reroll on moral and use them to swamp objectives. Maybe use a chronoscoprtek to make them even funnier. Use tomb blades for anti mech now. A 10 strong unit averages 3 HP's a turn on any non invuln protected vehicle.
I honestly think the three biggest winners besides the obvious wraiths are the flayed ones, praetorians and tomb blades.
Good luck!
Flayed ones are good in assault. However, they are slow (even with infiltrate), vulnerable to shooting (especially AP4 or better) and not as great against vehicles (sure they can take down a transport or 2, but overall are not good against mech-spam). Also, they lack any method of re-rolls other than adding a D-lord to the unit.
Praetorians have gotten better as well. Sure they're cheaper with slightly better shooting range and 1 extra attack. However, they still are not a solution against mech nor are they all that survivable.
Tomb blades are a real gem. They might not get MVP of the army, but they definitely get my nod for Most Improved Unit from the previous edition.
However, it might be funny to see 60 flayed ones infiltrating on the table and for only 390-pts, it isn't too expensive.
Frozocrone wrote: The Decurions that expensive as a base? Wow. May not be all the God-Tier people predict.
That said, jy2, what are your initial thoughts now that you have the Codex?
Looking forward to Newcrons in action!
No, it is far from a God-tier. It allows for a lot of variety, but overall, IMO, it is a NERF compared to the previous edition. There is just so many wasted points spent on "tax" units just to run any of the formations that overall army synergy/composition will suffer. I don't mean to sound negative, but any codex that has got me scratching my head trying to come up with a competitive build isn't going to be an army that will steamroll the opponents.
Well on the one hand, so many things about the previous book NEEDED a nerf (ie flyer spam, mindshackles, CCB's, and just how cheap a lot of the AV13 stuff was). On the other hand, I'm also seeing a lot of completely unnecessary nerfs in this book as well-- Doom Scythes, the Royal Court, phase shifters and ressie orbs were all fine before.
The book is hardly off the shelves yet, though. I'm sure that experienced Necron players will figure it out and start dominating the tables again soon enough.
Yeah, it's much different before. It's a playstyle change that most veteran Necron players will need to get used to.
However, a sign of a great codex (well, maybe not great, but a powerful codex) is that you can usually see the competitive builds fairly quickly. The original Necrons was like that. Tau and Eldar was like that. Chaos Daemons was like that. I just don't see the same thing with the Newcrons (and that isn't necessarily a bad thing).
However, I am noticing a lot of nerfs here and there. For example, now there is no more widespread 2+ saves. Other than the named characters, now only 1 HQ can get a 2+ and it costs something like 30+ points in order to do so.
You can no longer run 5-man warrior units. Instead, you need to run them in 10-man units.
Anti-air has gotten much worse due both to the nerf of Tesla as well as the increase in pointage of the units that used to carry them (and it's a substantial increase per!).
Anti-tank has also gotten worse. We lost our very good haywire crypteks. We will now struggle against Imperial Knights unless we resort to spammed wraithwing Necrons.
We lost the use of crypteks on the whole unless we run the Decurion detachment.
Res Orbs are now only 1-time usage. So is the Veil of Darkness.
I prefered the more expensive 3++ Phase Shifters over the current, cheaper 4++ Phase Shifters (though at least D-lords can now take them).
Scarabs are much more expensive now and their Entropic Strike is no longer scary at all.
These are just some of the less obvious nerfs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hyozanman wrote: "Made a mistake" someone that unfamiliar with their codex should have a hard time doing well at the LVO. His list is easy to get first blood on, I suggest you reserve everything his stormtalons could easily kill and shoot for first blood if you go second, if you go first just get FB and pray you win secondary. You should be able to match him in primary seeing as he has a free 5 points towards it on the table. Rememeber also, a lot of stuff in the current meta has a problem with AV 13, so you might want to consider maybe more vehicles. I'm not sure how much wraiths cost, but would it be possible to get a squad of 7-8 then reserve the smaller squad? The way your list is now any opponent could focus out one 6-wraith squad, where as if you had a larger squad and then reserved the smaller one you are forcing your opponent to make a bad decision and focus down a unit they may or may not be able to kill.
Prediction
Primary: Necrons, off the back of a few failed marine leadership saves and a whole lot of dead Storm Chickens
Secondary: Tied, Neither of you have reliable mobility to be able to get across the board in H n A to be able to consistently deny Secondary points the entire game. You both will probably match in units killed and this is the LVO maelstrom mission with the most ties (all of the objectives are relatively easy to achieve). If I had to pick a winner I would give the edge to the Necrons, Rhinos can give up a lot of points and could lose the Marine player the game if the Cron player knows how to roll 4+
First Blood: Marines, Scouting rhinos and 5 flyers on the board with almost no Alpha strike on the opposing side in hammer and Anvil deployment? 'Nuff said.
Linebreaker: Both Players, I think if your list can't reliably get linebreaker then you should really consider re-writing it, or just not expect to win.
Warlord: Necrons, his warlord is an easy kill and he has no reliably safe place to put him. Your barge is actually tough to kill, as long as you don't let yourself get bogged down by marines in combat you should be ok. Unless CCB lost AV 13? If that is the case both players should get warlord.
Prediction: Necrons Victory 6-2
Necrons prove just how toothless naked marines are in a close game.
Thanks for the writeup. Great analysis, btw.
I don't want to say too much about my opponent, as he wants to keep it hush-hush until the tournament, but he has an even stronger army than his Space Marines. Still, you got to admire a guy for wanting to try something different in what is probably now the most competitive Singles tournament in the United States. In any case, his other army is done and he does not need any practice with it. Rather, he wants to bring something different to this tournament. But if it doesn't work out, he can always bring his other, more established tournament army.
Yeah, I agree that his space marines is kind of bland. I would at least add meltabombs in every unit (can do so just by cutting out a combat squad).
I am concerned about his alpha-strike, which is why I will be going with a denial-strategy in this game. He won't have any soft targets on Turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 21:44:06
Yes, it has changed. Croissants are just too expensive to spam nowadays. Sure, you may still see some people spam them, but the majority of players IMO will be running 2-3 at most.
Personally, I will probably continue to run 3 night scythes, or 2 night scythes and 1 ghost ark.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 22:19:43
jy2 wrote: Yes, it has changed. Croissants are just too expensive to spam nowadays. Sure, you may still see some people spam them, but the majority of players IMO will be running 2-3 at most.
Personally, I will probably continue to run 3 night scythes, or 2 night scythes and 1 ghost ark.
Im big on the tomb blades atm... surprised you didn't give them ignore cover for a measly 2 points a pop. No real effect here as your facing marines but against GEQ its disgusting.
Night Scythe spam is effectively dead but with the change to reanimation protocols the steel curtain is back. Could actually see people play horde necrons competitively.
TK - 2012 40K GT Record 18-5
4th in 2nd bracket Feast of Blades 2012 (IG/SoB); 4th Overall Midwest Massacre (IG/SW); 5th Overall Indy Open (IG); Final 16 Adepticon Open (IG)
TK - 2013 40K GT Record 24-4
Best General Indy Open (Crons/CSM)
Top 5! Bugeater GT (TauDar)
Final 4 Nova Invitational (Eldau)
Best Overall Midwest Massacre (Crons/CSM)
Red Corsair wrote: I really want to see you try a flayed one heavy list. Those things will even mulch an assaulting death company. It's ludicrous how great they are for their points. I'd field a couple with CCB back up for the reroll on moral and use them to swamp objectives. Maybe use a chronoscoprtek to make them even funnier. Use tomb blades for anti mech now. A 10 strong unit averages 3 HP's a turn on any non invuln protected vehicle.
I honestly think the three biggest winners besides the obvious wraiths are the flayed ones, praetorians and tomb blades.
Good luck!
Flayed ones are good in assault. However, they are slow (even with infiltrate), vulnerable to shooting (especially AP4 or better) and not as great against vehicles (sure they can take down a transport or 2, but overall are not good against mech-spam). Also, they lack any method of re-rolls other than adding a D-lord to the unit.
Praetorians have gotten better as well. Sure they're cheaper with slightly better shooting range and 1 extra attack. However, they still are not a solution against mech nor are they all that survivable.
Tomb blades are a real gem. They might not get MVP of the army, but they definitely get my nod for Most Improved Unit from the previous edition.
However, it might be funny to see 60 flayed ones infiltrating on the table and for only 390-pts, it isn't too expensive.
Whilst I agreed with the rest of your post, I really disagree with your assessment here. Flayed ones are effectively MEQ with 5 attacks on the charge. Sure, they are hit hard by AP4, in particular Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters, but at the end of the day they will still get an effective FNP roll. They're more chaff than a serious unit, but the potential for board control is now much greater. I think they'll feature in a good deal of lists going to early tournaments after this codex drop, just because it's quite cheap to drop a blob of them. Not entirely sure what you mean about rerolls - there's no reroll to hit if that's what you mean, but they do have shred meaning they're massively effective regardless.
Praetorians I would mostly agree with, but my provioso would be that really, T5 3+ with FNP basically added on is not really easy to get through. Used as deep strike units, I believe they could be very good.
Tomb blades I don't rate much better than they ever have been. They dropped 2 points, and in return gained reasonably priced wargear+FNP. If you're not running them in units of 6+ or with upgrades, they're barely better than they were before. I personally think the particle beamer is surprisingly bad (much less likely to hit than TL Gauss except vs large units, can't hurt tougher vehicles). I just don't see the massive value gain compared to, say, destroyers who more than doubled their survivability (not that I'm saying destroyers are good now, though I'll give them a go). A good unit, but I'm not convinced it's any more usable than before. At the end of the day, you're still trying to ram a jetbike right next to vehicles to glance them to death - that's great and all, and most likely needed with almost all the anti-tank stuff gone from the codex, but is that really all that great?
I am also of the opinion that a Ghost Ark is a necessity now. Objective Secured AV13 is solid and it really helps out VS tyranids. The 10 shots at 24" range is nice too (or 20 if you get lucky and can fire both sides). As for the Decurion, the issue I've been having is that all the "good" units I want to use- Stalkers, Annihilation Barges, Wraiths, Heavy Destroyers; are all locked up in formations with less useful stuff. A 110 point tax for Wraiths or 280 to get in Stalkers is really harsh, and Annihilation Barges didn't need the extra cost though I feel Doomsday Arks might be worth trialling again - the S10 AP1 shot is much better with Primary Weapon and the S8 AP3 blast is actually usable, unlike the S7 AP4 one from before. Honestly, I think I've underrated it as a unit; it's a Vindicator which can fire across the whole board with better armour - not the worst thing I've ever heard. I agree that this is not the most competitive codex in the world, but I think it has a few cool tricks up its sleeve.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 23:29:48
2015/02/01 02:10:48
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Red Corsair wrote: I really want to see you try a flayed one heavy list. Those things will even mulch an assaulting death company. It's ludicrous how great they are for their points. I'd field a couple with CCB back up for the reroll on moral and use them to swamp objectives. Maybe use a chronoscoprtek to make them even funnier. Use tomb blades for anti mech now. A 10 strong unit averages 3 HP's a turn on any non invuln protected vehicle.
I honestly think the three biggest winners besides the obvious wraiths are the flayed ones, praetorians and tomb blades.
Good luck!
Flayed ones are good in assault. However, they are slow (even with infiltrate), vulnerable to shooting (especially AP4 or better) and not as great against vehicles (sure they can take down a transport or 2, but overall are not good against mech-spam). Also, they lack any method of re-rolls other than adding a D-lord to the unit.
Praetorians have gotten better as well. Sure they're cheaper with slightly better shooting range and 1 extra attack. However, they still are not a solution against mech nor are they all that survivable.
Tomb blades are a real gem. They might not get MVP of the army, but they definitely get my nod for Most Improved Unit from the previous edition.
However, it might be funny to see 60 flayed ones infiltrating on the table and for only 390-pts, it isn't too expensive.
Whilst I agreed with the rest of your post, I really disagree with your assessment here. Flayed ones are effectively MEQ with 5 attacks on the charge. Sure, they are hit hard by AP4, in particular Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters, but at the end of the day they will still get an effective FNP roll. They're more chaff than a serious unit, but the potential for board control is now much greater. I think they'll feature in a good deal of lists going to early tournaments after this codex drop, just because it's quite cheap to drop a blob of them. Not entirely sure what you mean about rerolls - there's no reroll to hit if that's what you mean, but they do have shred meaning they're massively effective regardless.
Praetorians I would mostly agree with, but my provioso would be that really, T5 3+ with FNP basically added on is not really easy to get through. Used as deep strike units, I believe they could be very good.
Tomb blades I don't rate much better than they ever have been. They dropped 2 points, and in return gained reasonably priced wargear+FNP. If you're not running them in units of 6+ or with upgrades, they're barely better than they were before. I personally think the particle beamer is surprisingly bad (much less likely to hit than TL Gauss except vs large units, can't hurt tougher vehicles). I just don't see the massive value gain compared to, say, destroyers who more than doubled their survivability (not that I'm saying destroyers are good now, though I'll give them a go). A good unit, but I'm not convinced it's any more usable than before. At the end of the day, you're still trying to ram a jetbike right next to vehicles to glance them to death - that's great and all, and most likely needed with almost all the anti-tank stuff gone from the codex, but is that really all that great?
I am also of the opinion that a Ghost Ark is a necessity now. Objective Secured AV13 is solid and it really helps out VS tyranids. The 10 shots at 24" range is nice too (or 20 if you get lucky and can fire both sides). As for the Decurion, the issue I've been having is that all the "good" units I want to use- Stalkers, Annihilation Barges, Wraiths, Heavy Destroyers; are all locked up in formations with less useful stuff. A 110 point tax for Wraiths or 280 to get in Stalkers is really harsh, and Annihilation Barges didn't need the extra cost though I feel Doomsday Arks might be worth trialling again - the S10 AP1 shot is much better with Primary Weapon and the S8 AP3 blast is actually usable, unlike the S7 AP4 one from before. Honestly, I think I've underrated it as a unit; it's a Vindicator which can fire across the whole board with better armour - not the worst thing I've ever heard. I agree that this is not the most competitive codex in the world, but I think it has a few cool tricks up its sleeve.
Yea I think flayed ones will be in many tournament builds honestly, heck if you can even go MSU in the decurion and use 5 man deepstriking units to claim maelstrom objectives similar to how nids use lictors. Use zandrek and you can choose the worlord traits that manipulate reserves.
As far as anti tank I think you pretty much need to use tomb blades and heavy destroyers. I'd always opt for ignores cover on the tomb blades and I'd stick with the gaus blaster every time as well. The particle caster seems ok, but blasts are crazy under whelming in this edition and you need that gaus to strip HP on vehicles.
At their current price point though I can't see why you wouldn't take flayed ones and tomb blades. They are probably the best board control models for their cost. These guys can even mulch bloodthirsters!
Also prats can't fit inside NS do to being jump pack infantry. Unless you meant lychguard.
Welcome to the newest Necron discrepancy. Praetorians can buy a NS as a dedicated transport. So either GW assumes they can ride in it or we inexplicably have a unit capable of buying a transport it can never, ever utilize.
2015/02/01 05:29:55
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Also prats can't fit inside NS do to being jump pack infantry. Unless you meant lychguard.
Welcome to the newest Necron discrepancy. Praetorians can buy a NS as a dedicated transport. So either GW assumes they can ride in it or we inexplicably have a unit capable of buying a transport it can never, ever utilize.
My space marine bike/jump pack command squad can also buy a rhino. Wanna let me start them in it too?
Also prats can't fit inside NS do to being jump pack infantry. Unless you meant lychguard.
Welcome to the newest Necron discrepancy. Praetorians can buy a NS as a dedicated transport. So either GW assumes they can ride in it or we inexplicably have a unit capable of buying a transport it can never, ever utilize.
My space marine bike/jump pack command squad can also buy a rhino. Wanna let me start them in it too?
You're missing the point. That command squad can also be purchased as regular infantry and thus has a viable, legal option to use their DT. Praetorians have no such option. Its a weird discrepancy.
2015/02/01 05:39:48
Subject: 1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets
Also prats can't fit inside NS do to being jump pack infantry. Unless you meant lychguard.
Welcome to the newest Necron discrepancy. Praetorians can buy a NS as a dedicated transport. So either GW assumes they can ride in it or we inexplicably have a unit capable of buying a transport it can never, ever utilize.
My space marine bike/jump pack command squad can also buy a rhino. Wanna let me start them in it too?
You're missing the point. That command squad can also be purchased as regular infantry and thus has a viable, legal option to use their DT. Praetorians have no such option. Its a weird discrepancy.
I am not missing the point though. Currently the rules disallow jump pack infantry from riding in a tranport without specific permission like the storm raven. The NS currently lacks that permission. RAW they can't embark, RAI is anyones guess. If you buy praetorians and then buy a NS from FA can they embark?
Also prats can't fit inside NS do to being jump pack infantry. Unless you meant lychguard.
Welcome to the newest Necron discrepancy. Praetorians can buy a NS as a dedicated transport. So either GW assumes they can ride in it or we inexplicably have a unit capable of buying a transport it can never, ever utilize.
My space marine bike/jump pack command squad can also buy a rhino. Wanna let me start them in it too?
You're missing the point. That command squad can also be purchased as regular infantry and thus has a viable, legal option to use their DT. Praetorians have no such option. Its a weird discrepancy.
I am not missing the point though. Currently the rules disallow jump pack infantry from riding in a tranport without specific permission like the storm raven. The NS currently lacks that permission. RAW they can't embark, RAI is anyones guess. If you buy praetorians and then buy a NS from FA can they embark?
Understand the RAW. I've been following the YMDC thread. This is more an expression of frustration that the Necron Codex allows the player to purchase a seemingly useless DT option. Either GW envisioned the Praetorian would be able to use their own dedicated transport or its a cut and paste error. Until an FAQ comes out, I'll err in my opponents favor and allow Praetorians to roll around in their DT Nightscythe. Its not the universal solution, but it seems like the common sense solution until an FAQ settles the debate. No other Codex has a similar discrepancy so there is no comparable analogy or a precedent FAQ to follow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 05:46:02
He is somewhat new with his army, only having played it 3 times prior, but this is definitely one of the armies that he is considering for the 
I shoot at his rhino with a D shot but only manage to do 1HP of damage.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
3000
4000 
