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I have recently decided to get into flames of war and have so far bought the Rulebook, as well as the Open Fire set and a box PSC Cromwells.
I am splitting the box set with a friend, with him taking the Axis and me the Allies.

My intention is to build an list based around Tanks (Particularly the Churchill), perhaps with support from other unit types, but at the moment I really don't know.

So, can anyone provide any suggestions as to what sort of units I should be looking at or which source books are best for this style.

The difficulty you'll have is that very few lists will let you run cromwells, shermans and churchills.

If you want to run all of them, the only one I can think of is from 'overlord' the desert rats armoured list consists of mainly cromwells and fireflies, and you can get churchills as part of a breaching group - but they're only AVRE's.

You get british tanks in 4 different books
'Road to Rome' - sherman and churchill lists - some of the lists get both in a platoon/company
'Overlord' - normally either sherman's and fireflies, cromwells or churchills - without much overlap
'Market garden' - shermans with more fireflies, and cromwells with challengers
'Nachtjager' - out in feb, cromwells and challengers in seperate platoons, and comets also.

So to sum up, IMHO don't fo all the different tanks as you can rarely use them together choose a type and go from there.

Personally for cromwells wait for the new book - it's got a great list!

Is the Desert Rats list any good? The support variants, at least IRL, were where the Churchills were best, but does that carry over into Flames of War?

Also, seeing as the book is called 'Overlord' am I right in thinking that the Desert Rats list is when the 7th Armoured was relocated to Europe rather than when they were in Africa?

Yep it's the rats in overlord.

Churchill support is primarily with british infantry lists, and in game terms works best there too.

I think if you let us know if what you want to run we may be able to help more

I think my primary opponents will be German Infantry and Russian Mechanised Infantry, all of us new players, so I'm looking to run a list that won't completely suck against them, but besides that I'm open to suggestions.

I definitely like the sound of the Desert Rats list from what you've said and what I've read else where, but in terms of actual units, I don't really know.
My initial thoughts were something along the lines of Cromwells and Fireflys with Churchill AVREs in support, as well as some Artillery with perhaps some infantry/AT Guns to back up the tanks. (I don't have the book yet so I can't put any numbers on anything)

EDIT: Found a webpage where I could put a list together. What's this like for a 1500pts list:

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ (p.81) - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Breaching Group (p.70) - Command Sherman V, 2x Sherman Crab
- 2x Command AVRE, 2x AVRE

Assault Platoon (3rd Division) (p.61) - Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 4x Rifle/MG

Field Battery, Royal Artillery (p.120) - 3x Command Rifle, Staff, 2x Observer Rifle, 2x OP Carrier, 8x OQF 25 pdr gun

Air Observation Post (p.161) - Auster AOP


1500 Points, 8 Platoons

EDIT 2: Removed point costs

@Raptors Talon.
I would strongly suggest including some recon units in an armoured list.(Either scout carriers, or Stuarts?)

I personally would drop the breaching group in part, or completely.They are great for Bunker assaults and clearing mine fields.But have limited use in most games.

And replace it with recon units, and may be some more more heavy anti tank.(M10 Achilles/Towed 17 pdr.)

I also notice you have not included any A.A. units .Crusader AA, or SP Bofors are good for mauling infantry as well as air craft.

Can the infantry ride on tanks, or do they need transport?(Defrocked Priests,RAM Kangaroos, Lorries.etc.)

I have not got the Overlord book.So my suggestions are a bit general based on some of the British /Commonwealth lists I have access to.

Is it a good idea to combine AA with Scouting? I've noticed in the list you can put AA MGs on Stuart scout tanks, getting scouting and AA into one unit, but is this a good idea? Also, do I need the infantry or could I swap them for more field guns/tanks?

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ (p.81) - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Armoured Recce Regimental Recce Platoon (p.84) - Command Stuart V, 2x Stuart V
- 2x Equip Stuart V with AA MG

Breaching Group (p.70) - Command Sherman V, 2x Sherman Crab
- Command AVRE, AVRE (40 pts)

Assault Platoon (3rd Division) (p.61) - Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 6x Rifle/MG

Field Battery, Royal Artillery (p.120) - 2x Command Rifle, Staff, Observer Rifle, OP Carrier, 4x OQF 25 pdr gun

Air Observation Post (p.161) - Auster AOP


1515 Points, 7 Platoons

OR


Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ (p.81) - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Breaching Group (p.70) - Command Sherman V, 2x Sherman Crab
- Command AVRE, AVRE
- D7 Bulldozer (Only here to fill the last ten points)

Assault Platoon (3rd Division) (p.61) - Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 6x Rifle/MG

Armoured Car Platoon (2nd Household Cavalry) (p.114) - Command Daimler I, Daimler I, 2x Daimler Dingo

Field Battery, Royal Artillery (p.120) - 2x Command Rifle, Staff, Observer Rifle, OP Carrier, 4x OQF 25 pdr gun

Air Observation Post (p.161) - Auster AOP


1500 Points, 8 Platoons

Also, is the mortar on the AVRE effective against infantry? I would have thought so as you could put a huge HE shell in it, but I don't know how that translates to the game.

Hi again.
I have since had a look at the Overlord lists.

The Stuarts are great light recon tanks.But do not get them caught up in fire fights with enemy tanks .(They are good vs infantry and soft vehicles/armoured cars.)
I would take them over the Daimler A/C dingo option.

My only concerns are ;-
The lack of transport for the infantry platoon.(They hold objectives better than armour can, in my experience.)
Could you swap them for the Lorried rifle company (with 2 x 3 ton lorries.)As the transport option could be very useful to get them where they need to go.

The lack of enough 17 pdrs to take on German 'big cats' and Russian heavy tanks.Would you consider dropping the breaching group for 2 M10 Achilees SP anti tank?

Having AA units is just personal preference.If you dont like it/face much enemy aircraft, you do not have to bother with it.
(I like to inlcude a couple of Crusader AA or SP Bofors for fun.They are good at defending artilery parks from infantry and armoured car attacks.)

Ok then, I see your point about the infantry needing transport. If they're going to be effective, they need to be able to keep up.

What do you think of this modified list? It still lacks the 17lb Guns, but I'm not sure what to get rid of to make space.

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ (p.81) - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Armoured Recce Regimental Recce Platoon (p.84) - Command Stuart V, 2x Stuart V

Breaching Group (p.70) - Command Sherman V, 2x Sherman Crab
- Command AVRE, AVRE

Rifle Platoon (15th (Scottish) Division) (p.144) - Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 6x Rifle/MG
- 2x 3-ton truck

Field Battery, Royal Artillery (p.120) - 2x Command Rifle, Staff, Observer Rifle, OP Carrier, 4x OQF 25 pdr gun

Air Observation Post (p.161) - Auster AOP


1510 Points, 7 Platoons

Alternative

This list removes the breaching group and replaces it with some 17lb guns. I'm not sure if 2 guns is as effective as the 5 tanks it replaces though...

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ (p.81) - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Armoured Recce Regimental Recce Platoon (p.84) - Command Stuart V, 2x Stuart V

Anti-tank Platoon (SP), Royal Artillery (p.117) - Command M10C 17pdr SP, M10C 17pdr SP

Rifle Platoon (15th (Scottish) Division) (p.144) - Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 6x Rifle/MG
- 2x 3-ton truck (5 pts)

Field Battery, Royal Artillery (p.120) - 2x Command Rifle, Staff, Observer Rifle, OP Carrier, 4x OQF 25 pdr gun

Air Observation Post (p.161) - Auster AOP


1510 Points, 6 Platoons

Also, a thought I've had today, do I need the Field Battery or could I replace it with more tanks/AT Guns?

You do not 'need ' artillery.
But the 4 x 25 pdrs will give you lots of tactical options.(Smoke to block enemy units shooting L.O.S,and blasting dug in infantry.)

The 2 M10s are good at 'shooting and scooting.'

You could always get the Breaching group first and see how it plays against your opponents.

If you need more anti tank just swap out the breaching group for the 2 x M10s.

If you want tanks tanks and more tanks , you can.Ill see what the options are and get back to you...


Cromwellgeddon!
CHQ,
CiC Cromwell IV 2ic Cromwell IV , 2x Cromwell VI CS.(95 mm howitzers.)

3 weapons platoons.
Cmd Cromwell IV , 2Cromwell IV , Firefly VC.

7th Armoured Division infantry Plt and 2x 3ton lorries.

Scouts , 3 Daimler Dingoes,(Inns of Court.)

13 Cromwell tanks, 3 Firefly tanks, 1 infantry platoon 2 lorries and 3 dingoes.
This will struggle vs some lists obviously .

You said you will fight infantry. How will you handle dug in infantry? Can you put improvised armor on British tanks to assault all panzerfaust platoons?
Even if your recce removes GtG with the cover + save + firepower test combo a dug in infantry shrugs off any shooting from tanks, you will have to assault.

As far as I can tell, British armoured lists have very little that can deal with infantry. AVREs have a range of 4", and I'm not sure how many, if any, armoured lists get access to Wasps, but Churchill Crocodiles aren't available to them, and there isn't a breakthrough gun in sight. Only the 5.5 medium gun is able to do anything from range, but requiring 25pdrs to be taken first limits their effectiveness in what's likely an already expensive list.

Without flamethrowers or BTGs, Brit armour tends to have to rely on pinning platoons with artillery, utilising direct-fire smoke from further away tanks, and hoping the assaulting tanks don't fluff their skill checks. Soviet armour has numbers. US and, to a lesser extent, Germans, get BTGs (and Sherman Crocs in the case of US). Brit armour gets neither numbers, firepower, nor flamethrowers, and a good handful of their practically mandatory tanks can't even shoot infantry. Pinning, smoking, and assaulting is the best option they get.

So would you just say the best option for dealing with the infantry is to hit them with artillery and hope then?

Also, Avatar 720, you seem to have a pretty negative opinion of British Armour. Is that just against infantry or are they sub-par all round? Or is it just my list?

Just against infantry, mainly. Against tanks, semi-indirect AT15 17-pdrs tend to make short work of enemy armour--providing they hit.

A defending British or Canadian LW list is perhaps one of the hardest to shift, defending as either of the three list-types. Their infantry lists, for example, get cheap, decent artillery, 17-pdr guns, and even their Late 6-pdrs aren't to be underestimated; they might be AT-11, but they get 3 shots each, can target infantry, and some lists can have 4 to a platoon. Their medium tanks are more suited to defence, too, with Challengers having RoF3 17-pdrs, and some fireflies being two to a platoon.

When attacking, particularly as an armoured company, they tend to suffer. An attacking infantry company is either auto-attack--and therefore tailored to it--or rolled to attack against another infantry company/auto-defend company, in which case the defending infantry/list tends to have the advantage. Attacking with tanks is the most likely, and when that happens, the British cannot take full advantage of their mobile 17-pdrs. Challengers are no better than Fireflies on the move, and M10 platoons will be sitting under smoke for most the game unless they move, halving their firepower, losing their positioning, and potentially becoming dangerously exposed.

If attacking other tanks, British armour has an easier time, but unlike an army like the Americans, they don't have pages of special rules to help them fight on the move (in fact, by moving they lose their only one: semi-indirect fire), nor increased armour values. They also lack something like the American Jumbo to draw fire. Another downside is that they flat-out rely on their 17-pdrs for anti-tank, and being largely spread across platoons as they are, it makes them susceptible to gun-tanking (and since there's no downside to gun-tanking, the enemy can declare it every time he shoots until the firefly/challenger kicks the bucket) and LoS shenanigans.

An attacking British Armour force somewhat shares the universal reliance of shifting quickly from cover to cover, preferably LoS-blocking terrain like forests or hills, but they are not forgiving if you make a mistake. Utilising copious amounts of direct-fire smoke is key to covering advances and shutting down fire-bases, and one strength of British armour is the fact that pretty much everything can fire smoke.

Artillery-fired smoke has the downside of needing to be fired at the start of the shooting phase, before any other shooting, which can mean smoking something you might have wanted to shoot. With direct-fire smoke, it must be fired first, but only when that platoon is firing, meaning that if you had 3 platoons, 2 of them could fire at the enemy, and the 3rd could smoke whatever's left. They can also lay down impromptu cover for an assault, which helps if you already used your artillery that shooting step to pin the enemy platoon down.

I'm sure there's more to say, but it's 8am and I've yet to sleep, plus I think my train of thought derailed a while ago and chugged off into the horizon, singing the song of its people...

Ok, thanks for all the info Avatar. Smoke does really seem to be the key. What do you think of this?

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ (p.81) - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Armoured Recce Anti-aircraft Platoon (p.84) - Command Crusader A/A, Crusader A/A

Armoured Recce Regimental Recce Platoon (p.84) - Command Stuart V, 2x Stuart V

Rifle Platoon (15th (Scottish) Division) (p.144) - Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 4x Rifle/MG
- 2x 3-ton truck

Field Battery, Royal Artillery (p.120) - 2x Command Rifle, Staff, Observer Rifle, OP Carrier, 4x OQF 25 pdr gun

Air Observation Post (p.161) - Auster AOP


1515 Points, 7 Platoons

This list is slightly points heavy, so I would have to drop something (Probably the AOP?) but I'm not entirely sure what.

The idea behind it is to have as many tanks as possible (For more smoke), and also as many 17lb guns as possible. (Hence 3 platoons of armour)
I have included both Stuart tanks and Crusaders for Recce and also for anti-infantry. (The MGs on the Crusaders seem like they would do quite well against infantry)
The infantry are there to seize objectives as well as to screen the tanks if required, with trucks to help them keep up with the tanks.
The field battery is in there to pin any enemy infantry, thus reducing the damage they do to my tanks. Pinning plus smoke, I hope, should keep them away from the tanks long enough for them to die, or for the tanks to move away.

What do you think?

 RaptorsTalon wrote:
Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Two platoons of four is better than three platoons of three.

 Ghaz wrote:

 RaptorsTalon wrote:
Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Two platoons of four is better than three platoons of three.

Is that because of how moral works?

EDIT:
Would this be a better way?

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ (p.81) - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell VI CS

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon (p.81) - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Armoured Recce Anti-aircraft Platoon (p.84) - Command Crusader A/A, Crusader A/A

Armoured Recce Regimental Recce Platoon (p.84) - Command Stuart V, 2x Stuart V

Rifle Platoon (15th (Scottish) Division) (p.144) - Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 4x Rifle/MG
- 2x 3-ton truck (5 pts)

Field Battery, Royal Artillery (p.120) - 2x Command Rifle, Staff, Observer Rifle, OP Carrier, 4x OQF 25 pdr gun

Air Observation Post (p.161) - Auster AOP


1520 Points, 6 Platoons

Hi again.
Yes the morale test is when over half the unit is effected.
So 3 tank units test after 2 tanks are KOed or Bailed.4 tank units test after 3 tanks are KOed or bailed.

I would use full strength 6 team infantry.(They need as many bases as possible to keep objectives.)

You can save some points by using the Inns of Court 3 Dingo scout car option for recon.(Instead of 3 Stuarts.)

And or Bofor's anti aircraft guns (towed or SP).Instead of the crusader AA.
(I generally park the AA near my arty to defend it from airplanes and infantry /light vehicles. )

Lanrak wrote:
Hi again.
Yes the morale test is when over half the unit is effected.
So 3 tank units test after 2 tanks are KOed or Bailed.4 tank units test after 3 tanks are KOed or bailed.

Actually that's not quite correct on the bailed tanks. Bailed tanks are neither destroyed, nor are they still fighting. It's easiest to think of active tanks as (+1), destroyed tanks as (-1) and bailed tanks as (0). You would only take a Morale Check if the result is a negative number. For example if a four tank platoon has one tank destroyed, two tanks bailed and one tank still fighting it would not take a Morale Check since +1-1-0-0=0 meaning you don't have more tanks destroyed then you have still fighting (the numbers are equal).

Ok. Now that the books have arrived and I've played a few games of FOW, I've been thinking about this list again.

Is it worth upgrading one of the Fireflys to a Challenger?

Are 25pdr guns the best option for artillery or should I go with something heavier? (BL 5.5" Guns or M12 155m GMCs)

Should I swap the Crusaders for Bofor's? (As Lanrak suggested)

Should I swap the Stuarts for Armoured Cars (Again as Lanrak suggested)

I now know more about the opponents I will be facing. So hopefully this will be able to inform my list building. They are:
German Infantry
German Armour (Including at least one King Tiger)
Russian Tank Riders

Possible Revised List:

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Squadron HQ - CinC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV, x Cromwell VI CS

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Compulsory Desert Rats Armoured Platoon - Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC

Inns of Court Armoured Car Platoon – 2x Daimler 1, 2x Daimler Dingo

Desert Rats Light Anti-Aircraft Platoon (SP) – 4x Bofors 40mm SP

Rifle Platoon (Desert Rats) - Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 6x Rifle/MG
- 2x 3-ton truck

Field Battery, Royal Artillery - 2x Command Rifle, Staff, Observer Rifle, OP Carrier, 4x OQF 25 pdr gun

Air Observation Post - Auster AOP

1510pts

 RaptorsTalon wrote:
Are 25pdr guns the best option for artillery or should I go with something heavier? (BL 5.5" Guns or M12 155m GMCs)

You can't field either the Corps Medium Battery, Royal Artillery or the Corps Field Artillery Battery (155 gun SP) without first fielding a Field Battery, Royal Artillery, Field Battery (SP), Royal Artillery or a Corps Field Battery, Royal Artillery.

 Ghaz wrote:

 RaptorsTalon wrote:
Are 25pdr guns the best option for artillery or should I go with something heavier? (BL 5.5" Guns or M12 155m GMCs)

You can't field either the Corps Medium Battery, Royal Artillery or the Corps Field Artillery Battery (155 gun SP) without first fielding a Field Battery, Royal Artillery, Field Battery (SP), Royal Artillery or a Corps Field Battery, Royal Artillery.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Is it worth taking more artillery on top of the 25pdr guns? (When I expand to 1750pts for example)

EDIT: Removed lack of reading.

Look at what the Corps Medium Battery, Royal Artillery is comprised of.

Ok, edited to remove my own lack of reading.

In terms of a tank company, how much artillery do I actually need/is a good idea?

You need some smoke.
You can apply that via mortars of various types.

Tanks have their own reach and you need artillery support less.

25 pdrs have smoke. I don't believe the 7th has any other options for a smoke barrage.

@Raptors Talon.

Here is a list I came up with.

CHQ.
CiC in Cromwell IV, 2Ic in Cromwell IV.

2 x Combat Platoons.
CMD Cromwell IV , 2 Cromwell IV, Sherman VC.

Support.

SP anti tank,
Cmd M10 C 17 pdr, M10 c 17 pdr.

Lorried Rifle platoon (R.V)
CMD, Piat Lt mtr.
6 rifle M/G teams.
2 x 3 ton lorries,

A/C platoon Inns of Court.(Recon)
Cmd daimler Dingo , 2 Daimler Dingo.

Field Battery royal Arty.
2 x cmd rifle, Staff, Observer, OP carrier, 4 x 25 pdr.

AA battery
cmd rifle , 2 x bofors.

Air OP
Auster.

This assumes you use the Bofors to protect your arty.(Static option.) And gives you some more 17 pdr AT options for the german tank list.

I am not sure how useful the Air Op is?I have made do without one up to now.(But I have not been playing that long...)

Something I was thinking about today. Do I really need the infantry? Would I be better off taking more tanks (Perhaps the breaching group?) rather than infantry?
Note: The issue with the breaching group is that it would replace the TDs, which might not be a good idea, so perhaps something else.

I will be attacking most of the time, so what are the infantry actually for? They have good staying power, but their damage output and mobility is limited in comparison to the Tanks, especially with the Cromwell's fast movement.

In comparison, the extra tanks would give me more firepower to dig the infantry out of their foxholes, as well as to keep the movement rates more consistent, as well as to give me more flexibility.

Alternatively, I could up rate some of the armoured cars to give them a bit more punch.

 Ghaz wrote:
25 pdrs have smoke. I don't believe the 7th has any other options for a smoke barrage.

The only other option is getting the two Cromwell CS tanks in the HQ platoon.

EDIT: In armoured lists, infantry tend to be there to hold any home objectives. If it's a tank on tank list, and you roll to defend, you have a fairly bullet-spongy unit to sit on an objective, and to feed one stand at a time into it in case you're moved off it. Since only the stand that moves suffers the penalties, not the rest of the unit, one stand can get up and walk over to contest the objective, delaying your opponent's victory by another turn, and buying you time to shift any enemies away yourself, without endangering the rest of the platoon.