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The rules say a Monstrous Creature can fire upto two of their weapons but the codex does not say what happens if you roll the same power twice.

Sorry, I meant a Tesseract Vault C'Tan.

Can they shoot unlimited shots; or can they just shoot the Power's of the C'Tan 6 times a turn?

 Ghaz wrote:

Again, you're totally ignoring the word that applies to the powers, 'them'. You can use Antimatter Meteor as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use Cosmic Fire as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use Seismic Assault as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use any of the powers I've listed as "... a ranged weapon..." but I've listed more than one power. By your claims I've only listed one. "A" does not indicate only one power, as its being used as an indefinite article.

"Each time a model uses Powers of the C'tan, choose a target as normal then roll one D6 and consult the following table to determine which power is used."

You roll on the table to see which power is used but those powers are -NOT- part of the C'tan shard's wargear. The C'tan's wargear is simply "Powers of the C'tan" a single wargear that is in the plural form. You focus on the "a" but didn't talk about that is a single weapon in the same sentence.

BRB pg 30 Select a weapon "If a weapon can fire in more than one mode, or can fire more than one type of ammo, select a weapon mode/ammo type - treat weapons firing different modes/ammo types as differently named weapons. If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected."

Does "Powers of the C'tan" have different firing modes? Yes because there is a chart that is random rolled to determine which power is used, so mode Antimatter Meteor is different from the firing mode Seismic assault yeah sure I'll give you that. BUT you have the next sentence to deal with. it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, is the C'tan shard equipped with two or more weapons? No it is only equipped with one "Powers of the C'tan"

If the C'tan shard has more then one "Powers of the C'tan" wargear or is able to use "powers of the C'tan" wargear more than once please post the rule that explicity states it can use "Powers of the C'tan" wargear more than once.

This tread is ridiculous. Look in the red box. The c'tan only has 1 "powers of the c'tan" wargear item. Even if you can fire multiple ranged weapons, you explicitly cannot fire the same weapon more than once.

Ghaz how are you getting permission to either:

1) roll a d6 on the table not triggered by choosing a target.
2) roll more than one d6 on the table.
3) pick a second target for the MC

Which of those 3 are you doing and where is your permission for that?


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As I noted above, Powers of the C'tan is not a single item but a grouping of powers each treated as a ranged weapon. Its like Flamer Weapons in the appendix of the main rulebook isn't a single weapon but a grouping of weapons.

Have you got a quote for the underlined as you've made this claim a few times yet the Necron Codex never says this. So what rules are you using as above you tell us it is not the Necron codex?

Replace "Powers of the C'tan" with "Plasma Pistol". Now tell me your C'tan has two Plasma Pistols.

So you want us to replace a plural, with a dozen plural references, with a singular?

Kangodo wrote:
So you want us to replace a plural, with a dozen plural references, with a singular?

Well the rule does tells us to treat all the C'tan Powers as a single weapon. Ignoring that fact for a second I have to ask how are you getting permission to either:

1) roll a d6 on the table not triggered by choosing a target.
2) roll more than one d6 on the table.
3) pick a second target for the MC

Which of those 3 are you doing and where is your permission for that?

1. I roll a D6 since I already picked a target during step 2 of the Shooting sequence.

So you roll a D6 after picking your target resolve that weapon, where are you getting permission to roll again?

By choosing a target as normal.
Normal for a second weapon means not at all since it's already picked.
Then I proceed to roll a D6 to see which weapon is used.

You choose a target then roll your d6. You don't get to choose a target again unless you have permission. You don't get to roll the d6 again unless you have permission. Please quote the rules you're using to do so?

No, I choose a target 'as normal'.
And what is 'as normal' for a MC shooting his second weapon? Hint: He skips it.
Fine, we skipped it. We then proceed by rolling a D6.
If you roll the same number you have to ignore it, because you can't fire the same weapon twice.

Kangodo wrote:
So you want us to replace a plural, with a dozen plural references, with a singular?

Yes. That will make it easier for you to understand why you can only use it once per turn. The "powers of the C'tan" is A piece of wargear. You are getting confused because its name makes it sound like multiple weapons when it is in fact one weapon.

The S10 version of the cannon has a rule that explicitly states that it cannot be used if the vehicle moves. Nothing can over ride that.

No, I choose a target 'as normal'.
And what is 'as normal' for a MC shooting his second weapon? Hint: He skips it.
Fine, we skipped it. We then proceed by rolling a D6.
If you roll the same number you have to ignore it, because you can't fire the same weapon twice.

Have you got a rules quote that there is another Choose your target step after resolving the first weapon and that MCs just skip this step?

 Ghaz wrote:
As I noted above, Powers of the C'tan is not a single item but a grouping of powers each treated as a ranged weapon. Its like Flamer Weapons in the appendix of the main rulebook isn't a single weapon but a grouping of weapons.

You reference the use of the word "THEM" when the codex states to treat "them" as a ranged weapon....if your logic were accurate, wouldn't the sentence state "treat them as ranged weapons"? The sentence uses "them" because it's proper English. "Powers of the C'Tan" is a plural noun, but that doesn't mean the rules treat it as multiple weapons. In fact, the rules specifically state to treat the plural "Powers of the C'Tan" as a singular noun ("a ranged weapon").

But that sounds like it contradicts with: "Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles."
If it aren't multiple weapons, why does each have two weapon profiles?

Kangodo wrote:
But that sounds like it contradicts with: "Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles."
If it aren't multiple weapons, why does each have two weapon profiles?

There are multiple powers that have two profiles based on who is using the power, but we are still specifically told to treat them (i.e., the collective C'Tan powers and their profiles) as a single ranged weapon and not as ranged weapons. There is no conflict, especially when you take that line in context with the rest of the rules for Powers of the C'Tan.

There are other examples of a single weapon having more than one weapon profile. The Doomsday Cannon has two profiles, same goes for the Heat Ray on the Stalker, does that mean those units can shoot each weapon twice? Of course not, having multiple profiles doesn't make it multiple weapons, it just means it uses a different profile based on the situation, and Powers of the C'Tan are no different.

Don't all weapons from a unit fire at the same time? For example if a model has 2 Plasma Pistols, or an MC has two Deathspitters, they fire at the same time. If a C'tan uses Powers twice he would use them at the same time. Meaning you select a target and roll 2d6 for the Powers. Since the rule sauys to only roll 1D6 how are you getting permission to roll an extra D6?

Kangodo wrote:
But that sounds like it contradicts with: "Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles."
If it aren't multiple weapons, why does each have two weapon profiles?

How does a Tesseract Vault C'Tan fire them then? one shot each, or each one an infinite amount of times?

No one ever said the rules were perfect (it is GW after all), just that the wording used makes the powers six separate powers with two profiles each instead of one power with twelve different profiles.

I'm gonna go ahead and jump in this fight because I think RAW and RAI indicate that it can in fact fire twice, and there are no stop gaps in the rules to prevent this.

First off the army listing

Wargear
• • Powers of the C’tan

And the actual Entry

Models armed with Powers of the C’tan can use them as a ranged weapon in the Shooting phase of their own turn. They cannot use them to fire Overwatch. Each time a model uses Powers of the C’tan, choose a target as normal then roll one D6 and consult the following table to determine which power is used.
1 Antimatter Meteor
2 Cosmic Fire
3 Seismic Assault
4 Sky of Falling Stars
5 Time’s Arrow
6 Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Each of the Powers of the C’tan has two separate weapon profiles.

First off

1. Powers of the C'tan is plural. It does not say "Power" it says Powers as in multiple

2. Each power has it's own profile and is a seperate "weapon" with two profiles , we know this because the last sentence says " Each Powers of the C'Tan has two seperate weapon Profiles" again plural.

3. Each time a model uses Powers of the C’tan, choose a target as normal then roll one D6 and consult the following table to determine which power is used. Again the underlined is plural.

4. What happens when a C'tan rolls the same power. It doesn't shoot it because it would be firing the same weapon twice.

RAW and RAI. You can't use the same C'Tan Power twice because that would be shooting the same weapon twice. You can select it because it is a Wargear item made up of Multiple Weapons.

So during the shooting phase you'd say using my Powers of the C'tan, I roll I get a a result. I am choosing a new Target, I roll I got the same result as the first, I can't fire it.

1) Yes the powers of C'Tan represents a group of things. There is more than one power in the Powers of Ct'an
2) The Powers of C'tan can be used as a ranged weapon in the Shooting phase.
3) "a ranged weapon" is not a group of things, it is singular.
4) The powers of c'tan represent a single weapon.
5) To determine how a group of things represents a single weapon we are given instructions on how to use those powers.
6) The group of powers is a single weapon.
7) The C'tan is not equipped with more then one group of powers.
8) The C'tan is equipped with a single weapon.

 DJGietzen wrote:
1) Yes the powers of C'Tan represents a group of things. There is more than one power in the Powers of Ct'an
2) The Powers of C'tan can be used as a ranged weapon in the Shooting phase.
3) "a ranged weapon" is not a group of things, it is singular.
4) The powers of c'tan represent a single weapon.
5) To determine how a group of things represents a single weapon we are given instructions on how to use those powers.
6) The group of powers is a single weapon.
7) The C'tan is not equipped with more then one group of powers.
8) The C'tan is equipped with a single weapon.

By the very definition of the word Powers of the C'Tan is a wargear item that consists of 6 different weapons. It states that each individual weapon has two weapon profiles. It states in the plural form. Not single. Each individual roll is a weapon unto itself.

Like again

Models armed with Powers of the C’tan can use them as a ranged weapon

The only way you'd be breaking the rule as I stated above and clearly that if you went to select your next target and rolled the same weapon.

 DJGietzen wrote:
3) "a ranged weapon" is not a group of things, it is singular.

'Them' however is plural. 'A' is an indefinite article. For example, if I fire a bolter on the first turn, a bolt pistol on the second turn and a lascannon on the fourth turn then I have fired each of them as a ranged weapon at some point in the game. So by your claims since I used "... a ranged weapon..." I've only fired one weapon when that's clearly not the case.

Hollismason wrote:

By the very definition of the word Powers of the C'Tan is a wargear item that consists of 6 different weapons. It states that each individual weapon has two weapon profiles. It states in the plural form. Not single. Each individual roll is a weapon unto itself.

Like again

Models armed with Powers of the C’tan can use them as a ranged weapon

The only way you'd be breaking the rule as I stated above and clearly that if you went to select your next target and rolled the same weapon.

No, its not. Its a wargear that consist of 6 different powers. Powers does not equite to weapons. The line you quoted tells use thay may be used "as a weapon" not "as weapons". When the powers are bing used as a weapon they are a single weapon, with 6 modes and each mode has two profiles. There is nothing that tells us that each power is a weapon in its own right.

And yet you continuously ignore the fact that they're called 'them' and not 'it'.

 Ghaz wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
3) "a ranged weapon" is not a group of things, it is singular.

'Them' however is plural. 'A' is an indefinite article. For example, if I fire a bolter on the first turn, a bolt pistol on the second turn and a lascannon on the fourth turn then I have fired each of them as a ranged weapon at some point in the game. So by your claims since I used "... a ranged weapon..." I've only fired one weapon when that's clearly not the case.

No, by my claim you've used "ranged weapons" and not "a ranged weapon."


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 Ghaz wrote:
And yet you continuously ignore the fact that they're called 'them' and not 'it'.

Not so. Them refers to the powers and not their use as a weapon.

And again, you use them as a ranged weapon is not make the powers singular. If you use Antimatter Meteor do you use it as a bolter? Do you use it as a shuriken cannon? Do you use it as a pulse rifle? No. You don't use it as any specific type of weapon, you just use it "... as a ranged weapon..." without specifics to what kind of ranged weapon. You do the same thing with each and every other Powers of the C'tan. You use each of them as a ranged weapon. It does not make the Powers of the C'tan one power.