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I dont think they had anything deeper thought about how they made their models. They just decided (for their UM army i guess) on a consistent look that they liked. The models and their kits still follow "rule of cool", the background and stuff is just bolted on afterwards, and is not constantly updated with model changes.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Curious. Sergeant Chronus is definitely a problem, although he certainly looks like a Techmarine - he even has a tiny servo-arm! Maybe he can forgo the need for the Machina Opus identification badge because he's just so very fantastically amazingly famous, being an Ultramarine character?

That page predates the Machina Opus gunner, though. What in the latest Codex suggests a return to this? Also, you could still use that insignia and just put the Machina Opus on the other shoulder. Sure they don't have a badge of their Chapter, but their vehicle is probably covered in Chapter markers, anyway.

EDIT: Then again, "Spear of Macragge" is Chronus' actual title. It's entirely possible that his shoulders depict the unique heraldry of that position, which would remove the need for the Machina Opus.

More than likely. Sgt Chronus is the equivalent of a captain. 6th left it open but 5th ed stated that he had 50 marines under his command. While not a company in the 100 marine sense, having 50 marines gives a rough division of 25 tank crews which is certainly a company's worth of firepower.

With 25 vehicles at his command, that does not represent the whole armoury so the rest of the vehicles must be crewed by the reserves and line companies. I still think that the machina opus on the power armour shows that these suits belong to the armoury which is under the control of the senior techmarine. This power armour has probably been modified to integrate with the vehicles more efficiently which is why they often contain colours and symbols of the mechanicum.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

EDIT: Then again, "Spear of Macragge" is Chronus' actual title. It's entirely possible that his shoulders depict the unique heraldry of that position, which would remove the need for the Machina Opus.

He has a name plate and terminator honours hanging on a chain..

Computron wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Curious. Sergeant Chronus is definitely a problem, although he certainly looks like a Techmarine - he even has a tiny servo-arm! Maybe he can forgo the need for the Machina Opus identification badge because he's just so very fantastically amazingly famous, being an Ultramarine character?

That page predates the Machina Opus gunner, though. What in the latest Codex suggests a return to this? Also, you could still use that insignia and just put the Machina Opus on the other shoulder. Sure they don't have a badge of their Chapter, but their vehicle is probably covered in Chapter markers, anyway.

EDIT: Then again, "Spear of Macragge" is Chronus' actual title. It's entirely possible that his shoulders depict the unique heraldry of that position, which would remove the need for the Machina Opus.

More than likely. Sgt Chronus is the equivalent of a captain. 6th left it open but 5th ed stated that he had 50 marines under his command. While not a company in the 100 marine sense, having 50 marines gives a rough division of 25 tank crews which is certainly a company's worth of firepower.

With 25 vehicles at his command, that does not represent the whole armoury so the rest of the vehicles must be crewed by the reserves and line companies. I still think that the machina opus on the power armour shows that these suits belong to the armoury which is under the control of the senior techmarine. This power armour has probably been modified to integrate with the vehicles more efficiently which is why they often contain colours and symbols of the mechanicum.

aaagh


You have posts by Gashrog and 1hadhq that indicate that GW models of rhino-hulled vehicles have non-machina, non-red crewmen. The shoulder pad and torso that you are talking about is an optional part on a universal sprue that was originally made for a unit, the land raider, that does have in the background a full-on techmarine in the crew. It is just a coincidence that it is found in the rhino box.

No crew man wearing a machina opus is anything other than a techmarine. This is what is says in Insignium Astartes

MACHINA OPUS
This is the mark of a Tech-Priest Adept. It is awarded to each Techmarine as he completes his mysterious training with the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. Bearers of the Machina Opus are accorded great respect by the Tech-Priets and are allowed free passage through the Ring of Iron and into/the great workshops of the Martian Hive. Only the Chapter's Techmarines and their equipment are permitted to display this icon.

You will also notice that Techmarines are actual tech-priests. They are actual wizards.


As RE: Frozen Ocean, Sgt Chronus

Chronus doesn't wear an Opus because he didn't spend 30 years on mars becoming an adept of the adeptus mechanicus. In the oldest background, you could have a librarian - the infamous half-eldar ultramarine - who transferred from the dark angels and before that from somewhere else, who was effectively an astropath in power armor. The Master of Sanctity and Reclusiarch were both, at different times, regular humans and furthermore ecclesiarchy priests. Those positions were changed to being actual space marines because modern chapters won't use anyone who isn't a space marine from their own chapter.

Techmarines are just the same. The chapters absolutely must have their own space marines filling all important positions, but they also need machine-code speaking, mechadentrite-waving inscrutable man-machine wizards who understand teleportation machines. Those are the guys who wear the machina opus. They are techpriests, these guys, except with a space marine at the bottom of all those cybernetics instead of a mortal. They are not sergeants.

The thing is that Land Raiders are alive, and deserve caretakers who do look like those guys. They still have regular crew, and vehicles that are not quite so close to sacred can get away with usually not having any cog-wearing techpriests aboard. The shoulder pad on the vehicle accessory sprue is an optional aesthetic choice for hobbyists. It is not an actual edict in even a loose sense of the concept.

It's manned by a rhino.

pelicaniforce wrote:


aaagh


You have posts by Gashrog and 1hadhq that indicate that GW models of rhino-hulled vehicles have non-machina, non-red crewmen. The shoulder pad and torso that you are talking about is an optional part on a universal sprue that was originally made for a unit, the land raider, that does have in the background a full-on techmarine in the crew.

What background? The current model land raider was introduced during 3rd ed. It first appears in the 4th ed codex where it's listed as having three space marine crewmen, no mention of a techmarine. In 5th ed it mentions that land raiders have more powerful machine spirits and that the techmarines have a closer bond with them than other vehicles. None of the dexes mention a techmarine as crew which leads to the conclusion that the appearance of the opus on power armour does not necessarily mean the wearer is a techmarine, merely that the suitis are for use with armoured vehicles.

The Land Raider Index Astartes article which accompanied the release of the model didn't actually state the crew always included a Techmarine, but both notable Land Raider stories included one: "One of the most famous stories in the history of the Red Talon Space Marine Chapter is that of Techmarine Clearn, his driver Marine Rillan and their Land Raider Eagle's Claw." and "Commander Sien and his Techmarine dismounted under increasingly intense fire from rebel infantry"

This is the way i see it (and explained by a designer at games workshop) the crew of a rhino, like all space marine tanks are tank crew who can be techmarines (not in the case of rhinos or razorbacks i don't think) but are normally just marines who do not take up front line duties but instead train how to pilot vehicles. they can incorporate red armour as either a sign of respect to their techmarine masters or as a part of an old custom, the same for the skull cog symbol on their shoulder pad. they may also actually be techmarines in the cases of land raiders and other big tanks of the like but i doubt a techmarine who spends 30 years training on mars would spend his time in a atp like a rhino.

Although it is not supported anywhere by the fluff, I propose that some Space Marine vehicle crewmen are older veterans who have become too injured to function as foot troopers. Sorta like being strapped into a Dreadnought, only you can still dismount to pull maintenance or go to the bathroom.

They may well be cybernetically augmented. A strong connection to the Techmarines would be unavoidable for vehicle crewmen after all. This also could explain why a non-Techmarine crewman might wear the Machina Opus. As long as they can operate from a vehicle the Chapter would be loathe to lose their battlefield experience.

Of course, they could just as easily test recruits for proficiency and assign them as vehicle crewmen from the start. The Techmarine association and tendency toward cybernetics might not change, since a cyberlink into a vehicle's Machine Spirit would make controlling a vehicle that much easier.

Yeah, now that I think of it this probably varies from Chapter to Chapter. I'll bet Chapters with big armored formations (Aurora Chapter?) test out their recruits, while those that favor infantry tactics (Ravens, Space Wolves et al) probably see it as a less desirable assignment for broken Brethren.

My two cents.

 Gashrog wrote:
The Land Raider Index Astartes article which accompanied the release of the model didn't actually state the crew always included a Techmarine, but both notable Land Raider stories included one: "One of the most famous stories in the history of the Red Talon Space Marine Chapter is that of Techmarine Clearn, his driver Marine Rillan and their Land Raider Eagle's Claw." and "Commander Sien and his Techmarine dismounted under increasingly intense fire from rebel infantry"

Back when the raider was released, techmarines were counted as part of the command squad, like apothecaries, so a Commander could have a techmarine as part of his command squad. Commander is a looser title here but likely means captain. Okay, I looked it up, it does mean captain (Sien is an Iron Hands captain to be precise) .
It makes sense that a captain with access to five land raiders would also have a techmarine at his disposal, in fact I'd have thought one a bare minimum for so many such vehicles.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
I find it dubious that two space marines, one of them a techmarine would be clubbed to death with lasgun butts.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
those that favor infantry tactics (Ravens, Space Wolves et al) probably see it as a less desirable assignment for broken Brethren.

My two cents.

I have read that the original space wolves codex puts grey hunter packs in the vehicles.

I don't like that posts that do t venture more than referring to codexes and WD articles are just as prominent and memorable as posts that do. See later I might get confused, to say nothing of forge world authors.

I don't have very much time for the idea that spacae marines are anything other than infantry space marines, some of whom occasionally happen to use tanks to support the rest of the space marines.

Like think about the master of the fleet. He's a company captain. They don't have a separate fleet commander because he'd try to win wars in space, on account of it being his job, and he'd upgrade the fleet in ways that would be better for winning wars in space than for supporting space marine assaults. You have to have every tank and ship crew automatically and naturally thinking like a tactical squad member. You have to have them thinking that just last week they were in a tactical squad wishing a tank would come along and do a very specific task.

The best part is, I'm not speculating about facts, because there are codexes and white dwarf articles that say tactical squads and grey hunter packs crew vehicles. I'm only sp culling as to why that would be the case.

The fluff has been pretty consistent in one thing and that is that marines do specialise. They might all be capable of doing everything, but there are those that specialise in close combat or ranged weapons as seen in the first company or Telion remaining with the scouts.

The fluff also has Space Marine vehicles with pretty advanced (and sometimes bloodthirsty) Machine Spirits. The operator doesn't have to worry about all functions aboard as the "mind" of the vehicle can handle many things on it's own. So the BS4 for the stormbolter means the driver is shooting while he directs the Rhino with voice command or machine link in the case of a Techmarine.

i still think you can either have a more lowly crew such as servitors or other space marines who do additional training to learn how to plot tanks

Anyone with a writing tool can plot a tank.

btw, tanks have drivers, not pilots, they don't fly - unless they're super special land raiders.

Also, Forgeworld calls him a "tak commander"

natpri771 wrote:
Also, Forgeworld calls him a "tak commander"

He's supposed to be the Warlord in your 'Take All Komers' list. Yes, they played too much Mortal Kombat.

As I stated in this thread, Who drives the Rhino. What (and possibly I Don't Know) are the Stormbolter operators.

they are either the Driver or another member of the crew who has some spare time on their hands. they can also be remotely operated by the driver of by the machine spirit

Crack Theory:

Rhinos are crewed by members of the Order of the Saintly Chariot, a specialist Order Militant of the Adepta Sororitas whose two main skills are driving and using remote guns.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Crack Theory:

Rhinos are crewed by members of the Order of the Saintly Chariot, a specialist Order Militant of the Adepta Sororitas whose two main skills are driving and using remote guns.

not sure i agree with you there

 Happyjew wrote:
As I stated in this thread, Who drives the Rhino. What (and possibly I Don't Know) are the Stormbolter operators.

As has been stated, there is only one crew who is the driver. The hatch mounted stormbolter is fired electronically by the driver. The pintle mounted one is for use by anyone inside the rhino including the driver - such as the rhino being on auto-drive (machine spirit) and the driver using the pintle mount. Normally it would be used by passengers.

The driver could be a squad member but they tend to be a marine rostered on to drive the vehicle which allows the full squad to disembark while keeping a marine behind to look after the vehicle. The driver could be from anywhere such as the reserve companies, the armoury, another line company.

computron is right

 the clone wrote:
not sure i agree with you there

About what? The idea that the theory is silly? The idea that Sisters (BS4 in power armour with extensive bolt-weapon training) could drive Marine Rhinos? Or what?

not that sisters couldnt drive marine rhinos but i don't think that sisters go through all that training just to sit there and drive there brothers into battle. furthermore i don't think that sisters drive every marine rhino

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Crack Theory:

Rhinos are crewed by members of the Order of the Saintly Chariot, a specialist Order Militant of the Adepta Sororitas whose two main skills are driving and using remote guns.

So six major ordos because the rest is tied up driving rhinos?



Navi? a map? We got faith in the GodEmperors guidance...

Computron wrote:
The hatch mounted stormbolter is fired electronically by the driver. The pintle mounted one is for use by anyone inside the rhino including the driver - such as the rhino being on auto-drive (machine spirit) and the driver using the pintle mount. Normally it would be used by passengers.

Just make sure you don't tell the machine spirit you deem it some sort of cruise control... they get angry pretty fast. OtOH only LR have real Machine Spirits....

I'm not sure who mans the turret, but I'd assume a passenger.
This is because I was told by the guy who used to run my local GW, "Why use space marines that could be fighting to man tanks? Servitors do it", when I asked him this very question.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Crack Theory:

Rhinos are crewed by members of the Order of the Saintly Chariot, a specialist Order Militant of the Adepta Sororitas whose two main skills are driving and using remote guns.

So six major ordos because the rest is tied up driving rhinos?



Navi? a map? We got faith in the GodEmperors guidance...

Yeah, they're women so they'd just stop and ask for directions.

Computron wrote:
The hatch mounted stormbolter is fired electronically by the driver. The pintle mounted one is for use by anyone inside the rhino including the driver - such as the rhino being on auto-drive (machine spirit) and the driver using the pintle mount. Normally it would be used by passengers.

Just make sure you don't tell the machine spirit you deem it some sort of cruise control... they get angry pretty fast. OtOH only LR have real Machine Spirits....

Yes, raiders are so sacred entire squads will be sacrificed to get back any weapon systems that fall off during battle.

i dont think that because they are women they will ask directions, I dont think that you will have 100000 battle sisters manning all the rhinos for every chapter (i figure the amount of rhinos to be 100000 as if there is roughly 1 rhino for a 10 man squad and their are 1000000 marines so i get 100000)

They use a GodemperorPositioningSystem navigator.