Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Filch wrote:
First of all, I recall some guy complaining that the new Necron Dex was bad because it lack flavor. My god! I wish GW would suck the flavor out of CSM and make them powerful like the new Necrons!
CSM needs to borrow so much from IA13 to be playable. You guys complaining about your Necrons being flavorless is like a bunch of obese tourist eating a big fat chicken and complaining muttering to yourselves that the chicken is a bit dry and taste bland while a bunch homeless starving children wait on their hands and knees for your scraps.

second of all, I think they should cut all the fluff and replace it strategies and tactics for beginners and give clues to the intended synergies to the reader. Maybe even provide raw statistical outcomes. Provide a picture of the model of the unit not some artist illustration. Cut the Codex down to just 20pages or less and charge $5. I want a small rule book for a, "Beer and Pretzel" game, not a DnD rule book.

Ssshhhh-- don't give them ideas for "for-references only" ebooks with only unit and weapon profiles!! If we are lucky they'll include special rules and their descriptions, and charge only 5 quid per army!

"Nemesor Zandrekh assaults the Imperial fortress-world of Xibtar IV. Protected by a nigh-indestructable wall of glittering adamantium, the planet's capital city resists Zandreck's assault for weeks until he employs a Destroyer Cult (tm). Wielding heavy weapons of fearsome power, the Destroyers (tm) reduce the mighty walls to dust within days- and Xibtar is soon one more planet under Zandreck's control."

Good god, you nailed it so well.

Da Butcha wrote:
Sadly, I think a lot of this is due to the success of the Black Library novels.

To GW's (wrong, wrong, wrong) way of thinking, why give away the fluff when you can charge separately for it? Thus, the codexes feature minimal background, so that it can be sold to you in a novel.

This is, as usual, utterly wrong.

First, a interesting bit of background in a Codex piques the interest of a reader, leading them to seek out a book. The absence of background does nothing. The smell of baking cookies makes you want one. The smell of nothing doesn't make you even MORE hungry for a cookie.

Second, many cool and interesting things in the background don't call out for a novel, or a novella, or whatever they are calling 4 pages of fiction at $5. Often a sidebar or a blurb is all that you need! We don't need a novel focusing on the epic battle where Wazzdakka zoomed off a cliff and through the void shields of a titan, only to crash into the cockpit and slaughter the crew. We just need a little story about how flying rodent gak insane he is!

I couldn't have said it better ! (surely because of my poor english xD)
What amaze me is the pecuniary thirst of GW, I know they are a company so they need to do profit, but they are milking the cow way too much. (Seriously, they are selling wallpapers !!!)

As you said, give some fluff for free to bait people into the BL which is imo of good quality but overpriced.

I don't really like the 6th tau lore vs the 4th. It got kind of bland, and lost a lot of the subtlety.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Codex: Necrons 5th already was an utter mess of ape poo written by a 14 year old stuck in the body of a middle-aged "writer". The decline's been there for a long time.

As usual, I gladly point you to Codex: Necrons, the most perfect codex GW has ever published with an extremely strong connection between fluff and rules.

Wait, so Codex: Necrons is crap but Codex: Necrons is perfect..? I'm guessing you mean different editions?

There's only one Codex: Necrons for TruCron players and that's Codex: Necrons from 3rd. It has an extremely tight connection between fluff and actual rules, making it the epitome of good codex writing. The current Necron codex might just be Codex: Adeptus Necrons.

Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Codex: Necrons 5th already was an utter mess of ape poo written by a 14 year old stuck in the body of a middle-aged "writer". The decline's been there for a long time.

As usual, I gladly point you to Codex: Necrons, the most perfect codex GW has ever published with an extremely strong connection between fluff and rules.

Wait, so Codex: Necrons is crap but Codex: Necrons is perfect..? I'm guessing you mean different editions?

There's only one Codex: Necrons for TruCron players and that's Codex: Necrons from 3rd. It has an extremely tight connection between fluff and actual rules, making it the epitome of good codex writing. The current Necron codex might just be Codex: Adeptus Necrons.

Okay, I thought that's what you meant, just checking. That codex was alright, I love the Lovecraftian Horror vibe to the Necrons from it, but I also like the newer fluff with more variety to it. It wasn't overly well written but I like the idea of it. And it didn't comoletely invalidate the 3rd ed stuff either which was good.

As the focus shifts harder and harder to kids with space marines the chances of ADHD and thus lower quality lore rises.

Anyone remember the original Codex: Angels of Death? The combined Dark Angels and Blood Angels book form 2nd Edition?

Now THAT was a codex

And I personally love the 5th Edition Necrons, way more interesting and appealing than the WD-lite versions

Additional: Dammit, by mentioning the 2nd Edition Codex, I just convinced myself to buy a second hand copy from Amazon...stupid impulsive nature!

 Psienesis wrote:
Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

Not sure how the fluff from Terminator is worse than Adeptus Necrons.

 Filch wrote:
First of all, I recall some guy complaining that the new Necron Dex was bad because it lack flavor. My god! I wish GW would suck the flavor out of CSM and make them powerful like the new Necrons!
CSM needs to borrow so much from IA13 to be playable. You guys complaining about your Necrons being flavorless is like a bunch of obese tourist eating a big fat chicken and complaining muttering to yourselves that the chicken is a bit dry and taste bland while a bunch homeless starving children wait on their hands and knees for your scraps.

second of all, I think they should cut all the fluff and replace it strategies and tactics for beginners and give clues to the intended synergies to the reader. Maybe even provide raw statistical outcomes. Provide a picture of the model of the unit not some artist illustration. Cut the Codex down to just 20pages or less and charge $5. I want a small rule book for a, "Beer and Pretzel" game, not a DnD rule book.

This would be fantastic. Except, one difference. Make it two codeces - one 50$ that covers in-depth fluff and tacitcs, rules, etc. and has a couple extra-special detatchment, and one barebones that's purely tabletop that covers statistics, strategies, tactics, and rules for $20 with a single faction-specific detachment.

 Filch wrote:
First of all, I recall some guy complaining that the new Necron Dex was bad because it lack flavor. My god! I wish GW would suck the flavor out of CSM and make them powerful like the new Necrons!
CSM needs to borrow so much from IA13 to be playable. You guys complaining about your Necrons being flavorless is like a bunch of obese tourist eating a big fat chicken and complaining muttering to yourselves that the chicken is a bit dry and taste bland while a bunch homeless starving children wait on their hands and knees for your scraps.

second of all, I think they should cut all the fluff and replace it strategies and tactics for beginners and give clues to the intended synergies to the reader. Maybe even provide raw statistical outcomes. Provide a picture of the model of the unit not some artist illustration. Cut the Codex down to just 20pages or less and charge $5. I want a small rule book for a, "Beer and Pretzel" game, not a DnD rule book.

eh the strageties section would be swiftly deemed useless with everyone attacking the stragties in the book as "bad ones clear proof they don't know how to play their own game"

 Filch wrote:
First of all, I recall some guy complaining that the new Necron Dex was bad because it lack flavor. My god! I wish GW would suck the flavor out of CSM and make them powerful like the new Necrons!
CSM needs to borrow so much from IA13 to be playable. You guys complaining about your Necrons being flavorless is like a bunch of obese tourist eating a big fat chicken and complaining muttering to yourselves that the chicken is a bit dry and taste bland while a bunch homeless starving children wait on their hands and knees for your scraps.

second of all, I think they should cut all the fluff and replace it strategies and tactics for beginners and give clues to the intended synergies to the reader. Maybe even provide raw statistical outcomes. Provide a picture of the model of the unit not some artist illustration. Cut the Codex down to just 20pages or less and charge $5. I want a small rule book for a, "Beer and Pretzel" game, not a DnD rule book.

This game is, let's be honest, pretty diggity-dang boring without style and flavour to give it some spice. If you're looking for a minis game that's concerned with rules and gameplay over fluff, you've come to the wrong place, without a shadow of a doubt.

I think it's pretty obvious that they've been paring down the amount of fluff in the codexes. I don't necessarily think this is a problem... there's such a wealth of amazing stories across multiple forms that anyone who wants more from their faction won't be disappointed. I think those of us who have been playing for a long time maybe feel a little disappointed that these new books aren't as chock-full of short stories and such as they used to be, but there's also so much more to the game and the lore now as a whole than there was in 3rd edition, you know?

thing is, short stories are easier to publish then they used to be. it used to be a short story would need to be in a collection. now they can toss one up on black library for 2-4 bucks

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

Not sure how the fluff from Terminator is worse than Adeptus Necrons.

Huh?

In their current state Necrons actually have character, and resemble various aspect of Greek mythology with their miserable short lifespans, rising up to fight their oppressors and being crushed, finding and pledging themselves to new gods and crushing their old foes, only to find themselves deceived and their race enslaved. Then finally the Necron civilization rises up and smites their own gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

I still to this day do not know how the Necrons could really be described as Lovecraftian except in the vaguest sense at all.

Not the Necrons themselves. The C'tan. Because very old, very powerful star-gods!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not the Necrons themselves. The C'tan. Because very old, very powerful star-gods!

Well they still are, only the Necrons beat them with SCIENCE! so scary they immediately destroyed the weapons. Not to mention that the C'tan are still reforming. They can't be put down, doing so has adverse effects like the Flayer Virus.

The bar has been lowered further?

We all know who we need!

I enjoyed the Crimson Slaughter supplement fluff a lot, as well as the fluff on the last page of the rulebook. The latter is probably the best fluff-snippet I've ever read, even if it isn't in a codex, which I'm assuming this topic is geared towards.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not the Necrons themselves. The C'tan. Because very old, very powerful star-gods!

Well they still are, only the Necrons beat them with SCIENCE! so scary they immediately destroyed the weapons. Not to mention that the C'tan are still reforming. They can't be put down, doing so has adverse effects like the Flayer Virus.

Gosh, that is one of the biggest plot holes I have ever seen in any piece of liter...I'm not even calling that literature. I mean, first of all, they need the C'Tan to defeat the Old Ones, but then suddenly develop mysterious weapons able to take down STAR GODS that are FAR MORE POWERFUL than the Old Ones. Then, suddenly, those weapons disappeared again. How could someone who wrote this even consider suddenly becoming a writer? D:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

Not sure how the fluff from Terminator is worse than Adeptus Necrons.

Huh?

In their current state Necrons actually have character, and resemble various aspect of Greek mythology with their miserable short lifespans, rising up to fight their oppressors and being crushed, finding and pledging themselves to new gods and crushing their old foes, only to find themselves deceived and their race enslaved. Then finally the Necron civilization rises up and smites their own gods.

In their current state they are yet another sheming and bickering faction pillaging ancient greek and egyptian tropes. Humans with just some cosmetic differences. Oldcrons had the good old faceless technological horrors from the abyss of time vibe for me which is now partialy lost. Although the "C'tan" did everything aspect was stupid.

edit: Tough Nemesor Zandrekh is awesome.

A good and actually interesting fluff would have been a hybrid of TruCron and NewCron fluff. Let the army mostly be the same, but somehow, some Necrons seem to be about to remember the times before the Great Betrayal. Like Nemesor Zahndrekh...but it's unknown if they are truly starting to remember their Necrontyr life or if it's just another scheme of The Deceiver...

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

Not sure how the fluff from Terminator is worse than Adeptus Necrons.

Huh?

In their current state Necrons actually have character, and resemble various aspect of Greek mythology with their miserable short lifespans, rising up to fight their oppressors and being crushed, finding and pledging themselves to new gods and crushing their old foes, only to find themselves deceived and their race enslaved. Then finally the Necron civilization rises up and smites their own gods.

Wait, what? The Old Ones did not "oppress" the Necrons, the Necrons got envious of their longevity and decided to commit genocide against a race with FAR superior abilities and power than they did. The Old Ones forced them back to their star specifically because the Old Ones understood that it was not their place to exterminate an entire species.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Old-OldCrons sucked and were as boring as whale crap. 5th Ed at least gave them some actual flavor other than "killer robots with pseudo-Lovecraftian Killer Robo-Alien Overlords that just want to kill everything because Killbots kill".

Not sure how the fluff from Terminator is worse than Adeptus Necrons.

Huh?

In their current state Necrons actually have character, and resemble various aspect of Greek mythology with their miserable short lifespans, rising up to fight their oppressors and being crushed, finding and pledging themselves to new gods and crushing their old foes, only to find themselves deceived and their race enslaved. Then finally the Necron civilization rises up and smites their own gods.

Wait, what? The Old Ones did not "oppress" the Necrons, the Necrons got envious of their longevity and decided to commit genocide against a race with FAR superior abilities and power than they did. The Old Ones forced them back to their star specifically because the Old Ones understood that it was not their place to exterminate an entire species.

I think they mean the oppressors were the C'tan, not the Old Ones.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not the Necrons themselves. The C'tan. Because very old, very powerful star-gods!

Well they still are, only the Necrons beat them with SCIENCE! so scary they immediately destroyed the weapons. Not to mention that the C'tan are still reforming. They can't be put down, doing so has adverse effects like the Flayer Virus.

Gosh, that is one of the biggest plot holes I have ever seen in any piece of liter...I'm not even calling that literature. I mean, first of all, they need the C'Tan to defeat the Old Ones, but then suddenly develop mysterious weapons able to take down STAR GODS that are FAR MORE POWERFUL than the Old Ones. Then, suddenly, those weapons disappeared again. How could someone who wrote this even consider suddenly becoming a writer? D:

Actually, it only sounds stupid when you say it in that manner. Essentially, it was this: The Necrons had the technology to destroy perhaps one or two Star Gods pretty much the whole War in Heaven, the only problem is that the Old Ones can't exactly be taken out by those kinds of weapons - Ultimate Psykerness and all that. Now, once the Silent King realized how duplicitous the C'tan were, he started building the most powerful weapons he could possibly get his hands on, because he knew that those would be the only things capable of "shattering" the C'tan and stopping them from ever having power again. The primary reason that he was even capable of doing this was because the C'tan had started feeding off of eachother and killing eachother by sucking all of the energy out of each other - because they're cannibalistic douches. While they were busy with their infighting, they were very weak to outside menaces and the Necrons took advantage of this by utilizing their most powerful weapons they could create. Once the C'tan were killed, Silent King decreed Necrons must hide, then he severs command controls.

Oldcron fluff was what got me into the Necrons, I agree that it definitely wasn't for everyone and completely respect the opinions of others saying it was bland and whatnot. For me, Wardcron fluff was... poorly executed. In hindsight I agree that a rewrite of the fluff was probably necessary but there were such huge holes in the Wardcron lore that it made my head hurt (Wardcrons really made me believe that GW has not even the slightest clue to how massive a galaxy is... or at least Matt Ward doesn't).

So in the end I made up my own fluff merging both the Oldcron's and the Wardcron's lores. And frankly, if GW put together another gakky piece of lore for the necrons, I'd would rather they just didn't. So while I would love to have new or further fluffed out lore, it it's going to be of the same ( or worse... or even slightly better) quality as that of the Wardcrons, I'd rather not have anything at all and just have a ruleset.

In short, I'm sticking to my fluff.

 dusara217 wrote:

Actually, it only sounds stupid when you say it in that manner. Essentially, it was this: The Necrons had the technology to destroy perhaps one or two Star Gods pretty much the whole War in Heaven, the only problem is that the Old Ones can't exactly be taken out by those kinds of weapons - Ultimate Psykerness and all that. Now, once the Silent King realized how duplicitous the C'tan were, he started building the most powerful weapons he could possibly get his hands on, because he knew that those would be the only things capable of "shattering" the C'tan and stopping them from ever having power again. The primary reason that he was even capable of doing this was because the C'tan had started feeding off of eachother and killing eachother by sucking all of the energy out of each other - because they're cannibalistic douches. While they were busy with their infighting, they were very weak to outside menaces and the Necrons took advantage of this by utilizing their most powerful weapons they could create. Once the C'tan were killed, Silent King decreed Necrons must hide, then he severs command controls.

"Ultimate psykerness" means nothing as the C'tan wield powers far above The Warp. Not to mention that your idea would assume that the Necrontyr somehow managed to hide building an extremely powerful weapon in underground laboratories...hidden away from omnipotent beings...the Old Ones were nothing compared to the C'tan and thus faced extinction. The fact that there suddenly were weapons more powerful than the universe itself is just...cringey. Even the existence of such things makes no sense whatsoever.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Actually, it only sounds stupid when you say it in that manner. Essentially, it was this: The Necrons had the technology to destroy perhaps one or two Star Gods pretty much the whole War in Heaven, the only problem is that the Old Ones can't exactly be taken out by those kinds of weapons - Ultimate Psykerness and all that. Now, once the Silent King realized how duplicitous the C'tan were, he started building the most powerful weapons he could possibly get his hands on, because he knew that those would be the only things capable of "shattering" the C'tan and stopping them from ever having power again. The primary reason that he was even capable of doing this was because the C'tan had started feeding off of eachother and killing eachother by sucking all of the energy out of each other - because they're cannibalistic douches. While they were busy with their infighting, they were very weak to outside menaces and the Necrons took advantage of this by utilizing their most powerful weapons they could create. Once the C'tan were killed, Silent King decreed Necrons must hide, then he severs command controls.

"Ultimate psykerness" means nothing as the C'tan wield powers far above The Warp. Not to mention that your idea would assume that the Necrontyr somehow managed to hide building an extremely powerful weapon in underground laboratories...hidden away from omnipotent beings...the Old Ones were nothing compared to the C'tan and thus faced extinction. The fact that there suddenly were weapons more powerful than the universe itself is just...cringey. Even the existence of such things makes no sense whatsoever.

They probably had said weapons in the fight against the Old Ones, but the Old Ones aren't Gods. They are an entire race of beings with technology that far surpasses that of the Necrons. They would undoubtedly have a counter for said weapons, and even if they didn't, they would still have the numbers to overcome it (robots AND Old Ones)

From a Tyranid perspective 2014 was a great year. The Codex itself was lackluster (aside from a nice little segment on Tyranids vs Daemons, which hadn't been looked at before).

Then we had Rising Leviathan which was a great sci-fi story and started to show off the Tyranids as a credible threat, and was full of new fluff and rules.

Then we had Shield of Baal: Leviathan which was an absolutely brilliant story, going into great depth on a Tyranid invasion of one of the most secure systems in the IoM.

A shame that the good stuff is released separately, but that's the way the world has gone and at least we have it.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Actually, it only sounds stupid when you say it in that manner. Essentially, it was this: The Necrons had the technology to destroy perhaps one or two Star Gods pretty much the whole War in Heaven, the only problem is that the Old Ones can't exactly be taken out by those kinds of weapons - Ultimate Psykerness and all that. Now, once the Silent King realized how duplicitous the C'tan were, he started building the most powerful weapons he could possibly get his hands on, because he knew that those would be the only things capable of "shattering" the C'tan and stopping them from ever having power again. The primary reason that he was even capable of doing this was because the C'tan had started feeding off of eachother and killing eachother by sucking all of the energy out of each other - because they're cannibalistic douches. While they were busy with their infighting, they were very weak to outside menaces and the Necrons took advantage of this by utilizing their most powerful weapons they could create. Once the C'tan were killed, Silent King decreed Necrons must hide, then he severs command controls.

"Ultimate psykerness" means nothing as the C'tan wield powers far above The Warp. Not to mention that your idea would assume that the Necrontyr somehow managed to hide building an extremely powerful weapon in underground laboratories...hidden away from omnipotent beings...the Old Ones were nothing compared to the C'tan and thus faced extinction. The fact that there suddenly were weapons more powerful than the universe itself is just...cringey. Even the existence of such things makes no sense whatsoever.

They probably had said weapons in the fight against the Old Ones, but the Old Ones aren't Gods. They are an entire race of beings with technology that far surpasses that of the Necrons. They would undoubtedly have a counter for said weapons, and even if they didn't, they would still have the numbers to overcome it (robots AND Old Ones)

The oldcron fluff stated that the Necrons were technologically superior to the Old Ones but the Old Ones had the webway which allowed them superior mobility and the Warp was an equalizer (also that they could spawn warp tuned species like no one's business). There is nothing in the Wardcron and Newcron fluff that contradicts this unless I missed something.