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You can literally count the number of visceral, skill based, Action RPG series on one hand
Let's see you got: Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, DA: Inquisition is one though not to the same extent as the others (build heavy, with lots of choice, ability to dodge and kite)
Skyrim is a primitive one if you go sword and board (dat godlike magic with mods though. Turning into a Godzilla sized dragon)
And that's it.
This is a genre we all play and love that has like 8 games that truly belong in it.
Talk about undersaturated. But why?

It might be a case of expectations being too narrow... Don't things like Borderlands, Mount & Blade, Batman and, of course, how could we forget Space Marine, fall into the broad category.

And that's forgetting the top down style 'Action RPGs', like Torchlight and this little game series called Diablo :p

Those are shooters and hack and slashes. I understand what you mean but those games aren't even RPGs.
A Western RPG is an RPG where:
-Combat has a lot of depth. Think Dark Souls. Instead of just hitting each other, say you try to hit me, but I dodge roll and try to do a big overhead, but you actually baited me, and you roll behind me and backstab me.
-Not just leveling determining power, but also gear. There's got to be crap tons of gear to choose from.
-There's a lot of minutiae in leveling. I could choose to be a warrior specialized in straight DPS against light armor, a Pure DPS against everybody, or if I abuse the system to have a max power character a super tanky massive DPS rape train.


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Diablo is just an RPG. Not an action RPG.
That's because combat is to simple.

That's sorta what I was meaning by having too narrow a definition.

For example, Borderlands hits pretty much all of those requirements, as does Defiance and Destiny to a lesser extent. Just because a gun is involved, it doesn't mean it isn't an RPG. And there's no doubt those games are full of action.

Plus, it's pretty hard to define a difference between 'rpg' and 'action rpg' now as the lines are so blurred. - I'd probably take a guess on saying how important the immediacy of decisions is, with a traditional computer RPG, usually having some form of action queuing and pause mode (or turn based), VS almost entirely real time.

I'm going to hold my hand up and say, I genuinely never have figured out the combat system for Mount & Blade. Or 'The Witcher' for that matter...

Borderlands, of course, has been known to completely drown players in loot. It was once quipped as a "Inventory Management Simulator."

I would call and RPG one that relies on percentages 100% for everything. Combat, skills, movement, enemies, health, quality, damage and so on are all percentages based on your skills.

The best thing a player can do is make the most of those percentages by for example getting close to increase the chance of a hit, or staying in the dark to avoid detection.

Usually they are turn based, but not sure of many that arent turn based. Not many exist anymore. I think one of the new examples of a true RPG is Divinity Original Sin.

You haven't seen drown in loot till Mass Effect 1. Nothing to spend your money on, and the game just keeps giving you weapons XD I always reached the point where I had max omni-gel, max money, and absolutely nothing to spend either on but I kept getting more and more weapons XD

I'd have to agree with Compel. I think you need to expand your definition. What you're asking for is rather niche, so you won't find too many games in that fit.

Why is it niche? Probably because any RPG with mechanics that specific is niche. RPG is a vast genre where mechanics can take a gak ton of forms. A game like Dark Souls is abnormal in the amount of detail it gives to RPG mechanics for an action game. Most games favor stressing the Action over the RPG, probably because it's a much simpler more straightforward way to go.

 Compel wrote:
That's sorta what I was meaning by having too narrow a definition.

For example, Borderlands hits pretty much all of those requirements, as does Defiance and Destiny to a lesser extent. Just because a gun is involved, it doesn't mean it isn't an RPG. And there's no doubt those games are full of action.

Plus, it's pretty hard to define a difference between 'rpg' and 'action rpg' now as the lines are so blurred. - I'd probably take a guess on saying how important the immediacy of decisions is, with a traditional computer RPG, usually having some form of action queuing and pause mode (or turn based), VS almost entirely real time.

I'm going to hold my hand up and say, I genuinely never have figured out the combat system for Mount & Blade. Or 'The Witcher' for that matter...

Borderlands, of course, has been known to completely drown players in loot. It was once quipped as a "Inventory Management Simulator."

Yes it sorta broad but Borderlands isnt an action RPG....
Two more requirements:
-Many, many different angles on Combat: Sword and board, Raising the dead and summoning demons to help you, charging a massive spell to kill everything in a mile radius (ala dragons dogma), Greatsword and the factors of having a slow powerful weapon, Outlasting the enemy with tanking, violent stealth, Bow and Arrow, you get the idea.
-An actual character creator. The more in depth the better. In Dragons Dogma I can be a 6'10 330lb musclebound goliath.
Borderlands is just guns. Its objectively repetitive and boring in comparison. It can still be fun.

So now the requirements are
-Combat has a lot of depth. Think Dark Souls. Instead of just hitting each other, say you try to hit me, but I dodge roll and try to do a big overhead, but you actually baited me, and you roll behind me and backstab me.
-Not just leveling determining power, but also gear. There's got to be crap tons of gear to choose from. A game doesnt have to have all of these. Dragons Dogma which is probably the best modern RPG doesnt have stealth at all.
-There's a lot of minutiae in leveling. I could choose to be a warrior specialized in straight DPS against light armor, a Pure DPS against everybody, or if I abuse the system to have a max power character a super tanky massive DPS rape train.
-Many, many different angles on Combat: Sword and board, Raising the dead and summoning demons to help you, charging a massive spell to kill everything in a mile radius (ala dragons dogma), Greatsword and the factors of having a slow powerful weapon, Outlasting the enemy with tanking, violent stealth, Bow and Arrow, you get the idea.
-An actual character creator. The more in depth the better. In Dragons Dogma I can be a 6'10 330lb musclebound goliath.

Modern Games which meet all criteria:
Dark Souls 1&2, and Demon Souls (all criteria met)
Dragons Dogma (all criteria met)
The Elder Scrolls games (a big lack of combat depth, but they slip through)
Kingdoms of Amalur (all criteria met, but you'll always be hitting things with bladed objects to some extent)
Divinity Series (all criteria met)

Now do we see my point:
These are fairly broad criteria, with only 8 games that meet it,



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 LordofHats wrote:
You haven't seen drown in loot till Mass Effect 1. Nothing to spend your money on, and the game just keeps giving you weapons XD I always reached the point where I had max omni-gel, max money, and absolutely nothing to spend either on but I kept getting more and more weapons XD

I'd have to agree with Compel. I think you need to expand your definition. What you're asking for is rather niche, so you won't find too many games in that fit.

Why is it niche? Probably because any RPG with mechanics that specific is niche. RPG is a vast genre where mechanics can take a gak ton of forms. A game like Dark Souls is abnormal in the amount of detail it gives to RPG mechanics for an action game. Most games favor stressing the Action over the RPG, probably because it's a much simpler more straightforward way to go.

How are those mechanics specific?
Think of how specific the survival Horror genre was in the early 2000s, or how specific the straight FPS genre is now. Those far more specific genres have innumerable games belonging to them. This if very broad, needing to have 5 features, with 1 simply being real time combat beyond "we hit each other until one of us dies".
Dark Souls is an RPG first......
You know because of the highly detailed world with your place in it explored, and the character creator?

I would say any game that relies on the players ability to hit a target or complete a task and not the characters ability is not a true RPG but an action one or a action RPG hybrid

So that would kick skyrim and oblivion out of the list, dragons dogma technically and havent played the others besides Divinity so cant comment.

Dragons dogma for example, you can miss a target in melee if you arent simply miss or strike early etc. Arrows auto hit not based on skill but simply because you have a bow.

Skyrim and so on rely on the player to hit with arrows or swords, not the characters stats. Or when lock picking the player has to do it not the skill of the character.

So in my opinion, True RPG is all character based and percentages, hybrid/action Rpg has any element relying on the player not the character in it. Which makes the amount of games much smaller.

Aren't you forgetting The Witcher or Fable, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning. There are Plenty

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Aren't you forgetting The Witcher or Fable, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning. There are Plenty

The Witcher doesn't meet alot of the criteria. Combat is exclusively melee. Limited (none in this case) character design. No leveling minutae and or options given on leveling.
Fable technically meets all the criteria, but its horrible, so........
I forgot about Kingdoms.


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 Swastakowey wrote:
I would say any game that relies on the players ability to hit a target or complete a task and not the characters ability is not a true RPG but an action one or a action RPG hybrid

So that would kick skyrim and oblivion out of the list, dragons dogma technically and havent played the others besides Divinity so cant comment.

Dragons dogma for example, you can miss a target in melee if you arent simply miss or strike early etc. Arrows auto hit not based on skill but simply because you have a bow.

Skyrim and so on rely on the player to hit with arrows or swords, not the characters stats. Or when lock picking the player has to do it not the skill of the character.

So in my opinion, True RPG is all character based and percentages, hybrid/action Rpg has any element relying on the player not the character in it. Which makes the amount of games much smaller.

That's a pretty good definition, but if you're cutting out Skryim, and Dragons Dogma you're doing it wrong. If I swing a sword in a horizontal motion I'M GOING TO hit something. You need to think more along the lines of dodging (with inputs, not through a stat), positioning (constantly putting myself in a place where I can charge my nuke spell, through skill, and not distance alone), and punishing enemy behaviors.


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Can we stop acting like we dont know what I'm talking about?
Dragons Dogma and Dark Souls, Skyrim (modded with dodges, and more attack buttons and styles) are the paragons of the genre I'm talking about. Because they're the only games in that genre.....

 ThePrimordial wrote:

How are those mechanics specific?

*Looks at your list of rather specific criteria. Wonders if rhetorical.*

Can we stop acting like we dont know what I'm talking about?

I think you need to stop pretending that what you're looking for is a genre rather than a game that meets a list of desires within said genre. Many RPG's don't include character creation. Most RPG's follow one of two paths, Level based or Gear based, and very few take a route where both matter equally (in the sense that for example, most MMORPG's end up being far more gear based than level based at their end, but more level than gear based during their beginning). Super deep leveling systems have never been popular to begin with. I have no idea why you'd expect them to be stables of a hybrid genre.

I think you need to realize that any 1 of your criteria on its own is pretty broad, but throwing them all together into one package is a very specific package. You're kidding yourself if you expect there to be a horde of games that meet them all.

 Compel wrote:
It might be a case of expectations being too narrow... Don't things like Borderlands, Mount & Blade, Batman and, of course, how could we forget Space Marine, fall into the broad category.

And that's forgetting the top down style 'Action RPGs', like Torchlight and this little game series called Diablo :p

I wouldn't call Batman or Space Marine an RPG they're pretty much a pure action game experience.

I think you're making up criteria for genres here.
The Witcher is an ARPG, as are Diablo or even Fallout 3/NV.
The term "Western ARPG" you define so freely refers only to asian ARPG, which feel like "western" ARPG. So Skyrim and DA shouldn't be on your list.

If you're looking for Dark-Souls-like games, then yes, there is a limited amount of these games.

You're missing Lords of the Fallen, which is a Dark Souls clone.

Baldurs gate 1&2 Icewind Dale, NWN....

Combat varies depending on the enemy, your gear, skills, class, maneouvering.

Gear is important.

Leveling provides choices (skills, wep prof, spells)

Loads of cobat angels - ranged, dual weild, backstab, spells...

Character creator - you need to make your protagonist.

Diablo isn't a RPG, Diablo is a Hack n' Slay.

It's funny to see people argue about their own personal, narrow, specific criteria for what makes an RPG that they're just making up by pulling criteria out of their... The funny thing is none of the games you're discussing have any actual real Roleplaying in them.

The fact is that CRPG mechanics have become a part of many genres of games as they've blurred over time, and that trying to exclude something like Diablo from "ARPG" by making up your own definitions is just silly. You'd be better served asking for more games like Demon's Souls than trying to "define" what an ARPG is or saying that Diablo "doesn't count".

Heres how specific the "psychological horror" genre was in the early 2000s
Criteria basically were:
-All have a focus on character psychology
-Most have intentionally bad combat
-All have heavy use of Symbolism
-All have a certain level design philosophy
-Tank controls may be present
So there are the same amount of base criteria but they're way more specific
Lets make a list:
-Eternal Darkness
-Silent Hill series
-Fatal Frame Series
-Amnesia Series harkens back
-Clock Tower series
-Escape from Bug Island
-Rule of Rose
-Haunting Ground
-Juon series
-Siren Series
-Call of Cthulhu
Do we not see how undersaturated this genre were talking about is now?

If you break genres down into very specific categories (like you did), there are a few series and that's it.
How many games are there that are like the Worms series?
How many tactical turn-based strategy games like Jagged Alliance are there?
How many space fighting simulators like X-Wing? (Okay, revival of this genre is on it's way)
How many submarine fighting simulators like Aquanox?

You have a constant shift in genres and most of them develop into something other. The early 2000s had tons of WW2 shooters, how many new are there today?

If you want ARPGs like Dark Souls, there are simply just a few. Could there be more? Yes, definetely. Do we need more? I really don't know, Dark Souls 2 was great, but I'm not craving for more atm and I certainly don't need one every year (think of CoD and AC).

And if you want more, there are similiar games like, I already said that, Lords of the Fallen. You're even counting Skyrim into the same category, so why not Fallout 3 and NV, which are basically Skyrim in a post-Apoc setting.

My point was this is a popular genre of games entirely composed of games most gamers know of or played. That has very few entries. As in only 2 series.

And the point others are making is that if you make up a bunch of really restrictive criteria, then of course very few things will fit into whatever you're making up. You want to exclude games like F3 and F:NV because the setting is different and they're not exclusively sword and board. So you're excluding non-fantasy ARPGs as "not" RPGs. Well, a "Fantasy" isn't a criteria for RPG in any sense of the word, and Sc-Fi RPGs have been around for (probably) longer than you have been alive. Gamma World for example, was first released 38 years ago - and it's a direct ancestor to Fallout.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Science_fiction_role-playing_games

Lords of the Fallen is very directly inspired by DS, but whoops - no character creator.

Seems like you're only interested in finding reasons to exclude various games and then bemoan that you can't find any games that almost exactly match DS. You'd be better served by simply renaming the thread "Why aren't there more ARPG games almost exactly like DS?"

If you break genres down into very specific categories (like you did), there are a few series and that's it.
How many games are there that are like the Worms series?
How many tactical turn-based strategy games like Jagged Alliance are there?
How many space fighting simulators like X-Wing? (Okay, revival of this genre is on it's way)
How many submarine fighting simulators like Aquanox?

You have a constant shift in genres and most of them develop into something other. The early 2000s had tons of WW2 shooters, how many new are there today?

QFT. I havent seen a decent WW2 flight simulator in yonks.
Nor a decent Space Simulator although there are a few upcoming.

What part of Diablo is an RPG? At what point do you get to direct the character's decisions to do or not do something, to react to something in one way or another? At what point do you take on a role other than the chosen class?

The problem with a lot of genres, and the RPG genre specifically, is that there's no single, definitive, definition of what they mean. It's a very broad term.

Diablo is an action RPG. It may not include character decisions, but that alone isn't what makes or breaks whether something is an RPG. It does include elements such as level up/exp, an inventory system, exploration and quests/a story--which are (more often than not) recognised elements of the RPG genre.

Akragth wrote:
The problem with a lot of genres, and the RPG genre specifically, is that there's no single, definitive, definition of what they mean. It's a very broad term.

Diablo is an action RPG. It may not include character decisions, but that alone isn't what makes or breaks whether something is an RPG. It does include elements such as level up/exp, an inventory system, exploration and quests/a story--which are (more often than not) recognised elements of the RPG genre.

Diablo is not a RPG. A RPG is a game where you immerse yourself in it and play a role of your choice. A mandatory part of any form of RPG is complete character control, from the ground up. Without character development, both personality-wise, and gameplay-wise, you can't really roleplay in it.


Every proper RPG starts you with a blank slate as the only way you can truly play any RPG is with full player choice.

 Psienesis wrote:
What part of Diablo is an RPG? At what point do you get to direct the character's decisions to do or not do something, to react to something in one way or another? At what point do you take on a role other than the chosen class?

Every proper RPG starts you with a blank slate as the only way you can truly play any RPG is with full player choice

If it isn't an RPG wtf is it? By this standard thousands of RPG's suddenly are something else (I assume some mythical genre henceforth unknown to man). Final Fantasy (and pretty much every JRPG for that matter)? Most MMORPGs? Full player choices isn't even a thing in the great daddy of modern RPGs (DnD). Full player choice isn't a thing in anything even. You can't really have a game without rules (I.E. limiting choice).

And how the feth are classes (probably one of the most definitive aspects of classic RPG's) somehow detrimental to role playing?

Seriously starting to wonder if certain people here are smoking something and if I can have any of it, cause it seems like some damn good stuff

 thedarkavenger wrote:


Diablo is not a RPG. A RPG is a game where you immerse yourself in it and play a role of your choice.

A mandatory part of any form of RPG is complete character control, from the ground up. Without character development, both personality-wise, and gameplay-wise, you can't really roleplay in it.

Every proper RPG starts you with a blank slate as the only way you can truly play any RPG is with full player choice.

No. It's not a ''pure RPG''. It's an action RPG. They are not one and the same.

However, to counter your points, you do immerse yourself in to the world and play a role of your choice in a game such as Diablo. You can pick your class, your gender, and you can build the character's abilities as you see fit. And, further, plenty of very successful RPGs do not have any form of character creation (which is what you're describing, really)--Final Fantasy and Witcher spring to mind.

TBH there's no such thing as a pure RPG outside of some very specialized pnp games anyway so who cares?

Akragth wrote:
The problem with a lot of genres, and the RPG genre specifically, is that there's no single, definitive, definition of what they mean. It's a very broad term.

Diablo is an action RPG. It may not include character decisions, but that alone isn't what makes or breaks whether something is an RPG. It does include elements such as level up/exp, an inventory system, exploration and quests/a story--which are (more often than not) recognised elements of the RPG genre.

Leveling up and XP do not make a game a Role-Playing Game. They are mechanics found in RPGs, certainly, but RPGs exist apart from them. An inventory system is also not required for an RPG. Plenty of non-RPG games have those. Exploration and Quests are part of an RPG, but they do not, by themselves, make a game an RPG. The Diablo characters are near-mute, saying very little, and providing few opinions on anything (and never in a situation where it changes the outcome of anything). There is no role to inhabit in Diablo, outside of the Class.

However, to counter your points, you do immerse yourself in to the world and play a role of your choice in a game such as Diablo. You can pick your class, your gender, and you can build the character's abilities as you see fit. And, further, plenty of very successful RPGs do not have any form of character creation (which is what you're describing, really)--Final Fantasy and Witcher spring to mind.

Haven't played D3 yet, but in the first 2 games, the character's gender was defined by its class. If you played the Amazon, you were female. The Sorceress and the.... Ninja? Monk?... whatever that was in D2... that was the only female character options. All other classes are male. You don't immerse yourself in the world, because there's nothing to immerse yourself in. Every time you load the game, it's a new world. The dungeons change, the landscapes change, monsters come back, and you just go out to loot them again. Again, the only role you take on is that which is dictated by the class of the character. You do not, for example, have the opportunity to play a Paladin from a quiet village church who has experience in raising horses and a dislike for rhubarb pie.

It's not an "Action RPG", it's an "Action Looter".

Personally, I say and RPG is a Game that has Role Play, or the ability to do so.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
If I swing a sword in a horizontal motion I'M GOING TO hit something.

Only if the enemy is silly enough not to dodge or just take a step back IRL horizontal swings are not exactly the best choices when it comes down to swordfighting, they're only practical if you're using a weapon which gives you a significant range advantage against your opponent(s).

Dragons Dogma and Dark Souls, Skyrim (modded with dodges, and more attack buttons and styles) are the paragons of the genre I'm talking about. Because they're the only games in that genre.....

They are not. There are plenty of action-oriented western RPGs out there in the market. The fact that you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist.

It could be argued most of them are far from being great games, but again that's a matter of tastes. IMO Skyrim is hardly a great game, and Dark Souls relies too heavily on a trial-error mechanic, so combat is not intuitive at all.

Someone has mentioned Mount & Blade. That's actually a pretty good ARPG, with a simple but decent combat system. Not as good as the combat in the first Risen game though.