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 Psienesis wrote:
Leveling up and XP do not make a game a Role-Playing Game. They are mechanics found in RPGs, certainly, but RPGs exist apart from them. An inventory system is also not required for an RPG. Plenty of non-RPG games have those. Exploration and Quests are part of an RPG, but they do not, by themselves, make a game an RPG. The Diablo characters are near-mute, saying very little, and providing few opinions on anything (and never in a situation where it changes the outcome of anything). There is no role to inhabit in Diablo, outside of the Class.

I agree. But neither does character creation. They're all elements of a broader category, hence why I said the RPG genre is very broad.

You're arguing that it's not an RPG, but I'm not sure anyone's saying it is. They're not the same category. They share elements, but if they were the same thing they'd be...well, the same thing.

Psienesis wrote:You don't immerse yourself in the world, because there's nothing to immerse yourself in. Every time you load the game, it's a new world. The dungeons change, the landscapes change, monsters come back, and you just go out to loot them again. Again, the only role you take on is that which is dictated by the class of the character. You do not, for example, have the opportunity to play a Paladin from a quiet village church who has experience in raising horses and a dislike for rhubarb pie.

Yea, but that's your interpretation of what an RPG is (which still isn't an action RPG). That's not to say that it the definition, however, because that's very broad. Again, by this logic a great many of the most acclaimed RPGs out there would need a new genre.

However, the consensus among the games industry is that Diablo is an action RPG series, which I tend to agree with.

And, to be fair, that level of immersion isn't too common in video game RPGs. Most give you a backstory, (sometimes) gender and what not. Their voices may be customised, but only from a select few accents or tones. Most often, class and appearance are about all that is up to the player, and even then not always.

How many games, modern games, really offer the sort of customisation you're talking about there, anyway? Most of what's in an RPG comes from the player, not the mechanics of the game itself. Same as is true for the likes of D&D.

It's not an "Action RPG", it's an "Action Looter".

Lol, if we must rely on such categorisations then yes, it's an action RPG. The Diablo series almost literally defined the category in to its modern meaning, and moved it away from meaning the likes of Zelda. But, I mean by all means feel free to disagree. Genres are a fairly poor way of defining what a game is, especially for RPGs, because RPG elements are so common elsewhere and the lines have blurred between clear cut genres.

 Psienesis wrote:
Leveling up and XP do not make a game a Role-Playing Game.

If one were to do a survey of every game ever made that was labelled an RPG, you'd find leveling up and XP to be by far the most consistent mechanic in the genre. Far more than character creation. Inventory. Voiced characters. Anything. I can't even think of any RPGs off the top of my head without some form of leveling.

An inventory system is also not required for an RPG.

Same as the above.

Exploration and Quests are part of an RPG

Same as the above.

The Diablo characters are near-mute, saying very little, and providing few opinions on anything (and never in a situation where it changes the outcome of anything).

Same as the above. It's actually only recently (the last decade) that this has changed.

There is no role to inhabit in Diablo, outside of the Class.

And it's still a role...

I don't immerse myself in the world, because there's nothing to immerse myself in.

I think this is more accurate.

We get it. You don't like RPG's that don't give you lots of player control. I don't like murder mysteries that tell large sections of story from the perspective of the killer, but I don't go around telling other people they're not murder mysteries.

it's an "Action Looter".

Now you're just making things up. Go type action looter into google. There isn't even an article about video games on page 1 (I concede I somehow missed that there is literally a RPG on there about killing fat looters , and what appears to be a mobile rip off of tomb raider). The first link is a dictionary for the word looter!

Are you aware of what the term "Monty Haul" means?

 Psienesis wrote:
Are you aware of what the term "Monty Haul" means?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_%28role-playing_games%29

First thing I found

My own .02:

Diablo is an Action RPG in much the same way that God of War is an Action RPG....

You take on the role of a character (the various classes in Diablo, Kratos, etc), complete missions/quests to become stronger (leveling up). In GoW, this leveling comes in the form of his various weapons that you pick up through the game. In Diablo, this is in your gear and your characters level.

To me, TES, and Fallout fit this bill as well, because you continuously get stronger throughout the game, in order to face tougher challenges.

Diablo and GoW also happen to be hack and slash games, which, IMO doesn't disqualify them as an "action RPG" it just means that, if we're creating additional subgenres of games they fit into a narrower category.


So, Basically, you have RPGs... Final Fantasy, TES, Fallout, Diablo, etc. etc. you can divide that into JRPG (which is often characterized by turn based combat), like FF series and Action RPG, as we're discussing. From there, you can further limit your viewing by saying "hack and slash" or whatever other terms you want to use to categorize games.

For those of you like old school RPG, Wasteland 2 is 10/10, excellent pick up, great story and versatility.

You can be a bad guy or a good guy as the game progresses, also your choices reveals way later its consequences so you're unlikely to go back and redo 2hrs of playtime.

cons of the game: lots of reading without voice overs, you may not want to ask every option as it may be a consequential one. Momentary wait in a new room/area might cost you possible quest actions.

pros: you can shoot anyone, absolutely anyone in the game, but they come with certain consequences, you may get into unintentional fights such as digging up someone's recently buried wife, great storyline, I personally love the canyon nuke cult; your party and your companions can actually die.

To me, "old school rpg" means Lufia and the Fortress of Doom.

Or maybe Might and Magic on the Genesis. Or text based adventures on our old Apple 2.

I loved those games, but I'm not sure either of them need to be repeated ad nauseum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oooh, or Landstalker (or its unfortunately named sequel Ladystalker)!~

How about...

MMORPG's classic style. And heavy on the RP, unlike... every MMO.

 Compel wrote:
How about...



MMORPG's classic style. And heavy on the RP, unlike... every MMO.

I still MUD. It's like 99% roleplaying and it's fun.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
My own .02:

Diablo is an Action RPG in much the same way that God of War is an Action RPG....

You take on the role of a character (the various classes in Diablo, Kratos, etc), complete missions/quests to become stronger (leveling up). In GoW, this leveling comes in the form of his various weapons that you pick up through the game. In Diablo, this is in your gear and your characters level.

To me, TES, and Fallout fit this bill as well, because you continuously get stronger throughout the game, in order to face tougher challenges.

Diablo and GoW also happen to be hack and slash games, which, IMO doesn't disqualify them as an "action RPG" it just means that, if we're creating additional subgenres of games they fit into a narrower category.


So, Basically, you have RPGs... Final Fantasy, TES, Fallout, Diablo, etc. etc. you can divide that into JRPG (which is often characterized by turn based combat), like FF series and Action RPG, as we're discussing. From there, you can further limit your viewing by saying "hack and slash" or whatever other terms you want to use to categorize games.

I would say God of war is more Action Adventure (like Zelda, Tomb Raider, Metroid and Okami) than Action RPG (like Diablo, Legend of Grimrock and Elder Scrolls) but I won't deny there's some mild RPG elements in God of War then again so do a lot of action adventure games have mild

RPG elements.

Interesting fun fact. When the first Zelda gamecame out, it was considered an RPG by critics and reviewers Of course what we call RPG's has since changed but;

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
My own .02:

Diablo is an Action RPG in much the same way that God of War is an Action RPG....

You take on the role of a character (the various classes in Diablo, Kratos, etc), complete missions/quests to become stronger (leveling up). In GoW, this leveling comes in the form of his various weapons that you pick up through the game. In Diablo, this is in your gear and your characters level.

To me, TES, and Fallout fit this bill as well, because you continuously get stronger throughout the game, in order to face tougher challenges.

Diablo and GoW also happen to be hack and slash games, which, IMO doesn't disqualify them as an "action RPG" it just means that, if we're creating additional subgenres of games they fit into a narrower category.


So, Basically, you have RPGs... Final Fantasy, TES, Fallout, Diablo, etc. etc. you can divide that into JRPG (which is often characterized by turn based combat), like FF series and Action RPG, as we're discussing. From there, you can further limit your viewing by saying "hack and slash" or whatever other terms you want to use to categorize games.

I would say God of war is more Action Adventure (like Zelda, Tomb Raider, Metroid and Okami) than Action RPG (like Diablo, Legend of Grimrock and Elder Scrolls) but I won't deny there's some mild RPG elements in God of War then again so do a lot of action adventure games have mild

RPG elements.

Yes. Action games like Diablo 3.

Diablo has too many RPG elements to be a straight action game it's usually referred to as a hack and slash and a Action RPG.

 Cheesecat wrote:
Diablo has too many RPG elements to be a straight action game it's usually referred to as a hack and slash and a Action RPG.

Having rpg elements does not make it an rpg.

Diablo is widely regarded as an Action RPG and is one the most archetypical examples of the genre, to say otherwise is just makes you come across like you're talking out of your ass and have little to no understanding of video games. As for RPG elements off top of my head it has a leveling

system, various classes, loot system, fiddle with stats, learn spells, customize characters, etc sounds like a RPG to me.

 Cheesecat wrote:
Diablo is widely regarded as an Action RPG and is one the most archetypical examples of the genre, to say otherwise is just makes you come across like you're talking out of your ass and have little to no understanding of video games. As for RPG elements off top of my head it has a leveling

system, various classes, loot system, fiddle with stats, learn spells, customize characters, etc sounds like a RPG to me.

Allowe to put it into perspective. Skyrim is barely an RPG.

Nethack is a RPG. Google it.

I could call LoL an Action RPG. That does not make it one. And none of those features are unique to an RPG. You know what is? Player immersion, character creation and development, and player choice. Without those, it's not qualified to be an RPG.

Diablo is an action RPG. You might be looking for a particular kind
of action RPG, but Diablo, Path of Exile, and even Titan Quest are
considered to be action RPGs.

 malfred wrote:
Diablo is an action RPG. You might be looking for a particular kind
of action RPG, but Diablo, Path of Exile, and even Titan Quest are
considered to be action RPGs.

Again. perspective. If a game like Skyrim is barely an RPG.(Compare it to a true RPG like D&D, Nethack, Cyberpunk 2020, Iron Kingdoms, HERO, DF, or the plethora of others out there, and you'll understand), then any game that is anything less can't be considered to be one.

Action RPGs are a term coined falsely, as a loose definition of a subgenre. That doesn't make them any more correct.

If we go by this: "Action role-playing games (abbreviated action RPG, action/RPG, or ARPG) form a loosely defined subgenre of role-playing video games that incorporate elements of action or action-adventure games, emphasizing real-time action where the player has direct control over characters, instead of turn-based or menu-based combat.", which is the actual definition of an Action RPG, then Smite is a RPG. As is DoTA 2 and LoL. I rest my case.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
You know what is? Player immersion, character creation and development, and player choice. Without those, it's not qualified to be an RPG.

See, I think you're wrong here... the ONLY time I've ever had "player immersion" was in pnp D&D games. I don't care about pixelated characters on a screen. Doesn't matter what game it is, I try and get through dialogue as quickly as possible to get on with the killing.

If you want to be completely semantic, CoD or Battlefield games are "RPGs". To illustrate what I'm talking about, in the MOH reboot, you take on the role of Dusty and other SOCOM guys. Now, I wouldn't argue this, because we have a widely accepted "genre definition" for those games, as FPSs.

IMO, to continue arguing that Diablo, et al. aren't RPGs makes you look rather silly, because they are widely accepted as such by critics and most gamers alike.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 malfred wrote:
Diablo is an action RPG. You might be looking for a particular kind
of action RPG, but Diablo, Path of Exile, and even Titan Quest are
considered to be action RPGs.

Again. perspective. If a game like Skyrim is barely an RPG.(Compare it to a true RPG like D&D, Nethack, Cyberpunk 2020, Iron Kingdoms, HERO, DF, or the plethora of others out there, and you'll understand), then any game that is anything less can't be considered to be one.

Action RPGs are a term coined falsely, as a loose definition of a subgenre. That doesn't make them any more correct.

If we go by this: "Action role-playing games (abbreviated action RPG, action/RPG, or ARPG) form a loosely defined subgenre of role-playing video games that incorporate elements of action or action-adventure games, emphasizing real-time action where the player has direct control over characters, instead of turn-based or menu-based combat.", which is the actual definition of an Action RPG, then Smite is a RPG. As is DoTA 2 and LoL. I rest my case.

If you rest your case, will you stop re-butting?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
You know what is? Player immersion, character creation and development, and player choice. Without those, it's not qualified to be an RPG.

See, I think you're wrong here... the ONLY time I've ever had "player immersion" was in pnp D&D games. I don't care about pixelated characters on a screen. Doesn't matter what game it is, I try and get through dialogue as quickly as possible to get on with the killing.

If you want to be completely semantic, CoD or Battlefield games are "RPGs". To illustrate what I'm talking about, in the MOH reboot, you take on the role of Dusty and other SOCOM guys. Now, I wouldn't argue this, because we have a widely accepted "genre definition" for those games, as FPSs.

IMO, to continue arguing that Diablo, et al. aren't RPGs makes you look rather silly, because they are widely accepted as such by critics and most gamers alike.

That's why very, very few video games are actually RPGs. What the industry calls something is driven mainly by marketing teams, who often don't really know what they're talking about (this is why they work in marketing). What "most gamers" accept is irrelevant to me, because one needs only look on most gaming forums to realize that "most gamers" are morons. Time ago, any video game where you carried swords instead of guns was an "RPG"... because D&D was the only basis for comparison to the minds of most.

Currently, technology generally prevents the sort of immersion one can find in a P&P game, though MMOs can (to some extent) mitigate this (via other players, not the actual design or mechanics of the game). It is notable, perhaps, that the "truest" video game RPGs are those based on P&P RPGs: the Baldur's Gate series, Planescape: Torment, and Deus Ex (being, basically, Cyberpunk: 2020 in video game form) being three such examples. The Mass Effect series is another good contender for the class.

 thedarkavenger wrote:



Allowe to put it into perspective. Skyrim is barely an RPG.

This makes no sense.

Nethack is a RPG. Google it.

No disagreement there.

I could call LoL an Action RPG. That does not make it one. And none of those features are unique to an RPG.

It's called a MOBA and a large part of it's influence comes from RTS.

You know what is? Player immersion, character creation and development, and player choice. Without those, it's not qualified to be an RPG.

All those qualities you just described are qualities that Diablo has, therefore by your own definition Diablo is an RPG.

As previously mentioned, there is no immersion to Diablo. The world is just about as bare-bones as it gets, and is randomly generated every time you play. There is zero character development beyond what abilities you buy in the skill-tree. There's next to zero actual dialog. And the only choice you, the player, have during the game is whether or not to pick up that suit of magic platemail that swarm of bugs just dropped.

 Psienesis wrote:
As previously mentioned, there is no immersion to Diablo.

We get it. You have a raging hate boner for Diablo (honestly so do I but I don't hate it so much I want it excised from its own genre).

But it's still an RPG

Immersion isnt just based on the game itself you know. Take TES games for instance. Most quests are pretty linear. But I could just as well roleplay that Im an argonian fisherman. Which Im actually doing atm. The fact he does assassinations on the side shouldnt really concern anyone. For long. <.<

 LordofHats wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
As previously mentioned, there is no immersion to Diablo.

We get it. You have a raging hate boner for Diablo (honestly so do I but I don't hate it so much I want it excised from its own genre).

But it's still an RPG

If people claim that Diablo is an RPG, so is my left foot. Both claims are just as valid as each other.


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 Cheesecat wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:



Allowe to put it into perspective. Skyrim is barely an RPG.

This makes no sense.

Skyrim has too many flaws that ruin immersion to be roleplaying. Plus, the character system is far too limiting, both statwise and appearance. The closest the TES series got to a true RPG was Daggerfall, for both the character creation system, and gameplay.


As for games like BG, and Planescape. I'd more call them e-Tabletop games, than computerised RPGs.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
As previously mentioned, there is no immersion to Diablo.

We get it. You have a raging hate boner for Diablo (honestly so do I but I don't hate it so much I want it excised from its own genre).

But it's still an RPG

If people claim that Diablo is an RPG, so is my left foot. Both claims are just as valid as each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:



Allowe to put it into perspective. Skyrim is barely an RPG.

This makes no sense.

Skyrim has too many flaws that ruin immersion to be roleplaying to me. Plus, the character system is far too limiting, both statwise and appearance.IMO The closest the TES series got to a true RPG was Daggerfall, for both the character creation system, and gameplay.


As for games like BG, and Planescape. I'd more call them e-Tabletop games, than computerised RPGs.

There's just no winning with you


And fixed that for you

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Skyrim has too many flaws that ruin immersion to be roleplaying. Plus, the character system is far too limiting, both statwise and appearance.

''I don't like it'' really doesn't equate to ''it's not an RPG.''

Akragth wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Skyrim has too many flaws that ruin immersion to be roleplaying. Plus, the character system is far too limiting, both statwise and appearance.

''I don't like it'' really doesn't equate to ''it's not an RPG.''

I never said I don't like it. Skyrim is one of my favourite games ever.

It's still not an RPG.

Games like Baldur's Gate and Nethack are far closer to true RPGs than Skyrim, but even they're just that; close.

Just out of curiosity, thedarkavenger, what actual elements do you expect from a true RPG? Like, don't just say "similar to *insert game* ", give us an example (or a few examples) of what made a game an RPG to you, some events, some quality. You need to understand something, I (and likely others) haven't played some of the games you mention so we don't know why you think your listed games are so special compared to the games that failed your list. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the heck you're expecting.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Skyrim is barely an RPG.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Skyrim is one of my favourite games ever.

It's still not an RPG.

What??