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Akiasura, what you are forgetting to do is factor in the rest of the Grey Knight's army.
You're including marker lights and stuff, but what about Grey Knight's alpha strike? That would soften up the opponent which would also reduce the amount of units that will shoot at the Dreadknight since there will be terminators and purifiers using BA/SW drop pods or a cent star with Draigo and friends.
This means that the rest of the army makes the Dreadknight more survivable.
Edit: how could I forget the Dreadknight's civil partner(s) (like total0 said). You usually see singular Riptides but you NEVER see singular Dreadknights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/08 14:59:14
SGTPozy wrote: Akiasura, what you are forgetting to do is factor in the rest of the Grey Knight's army.
You're including marker lights and stuff, but what about Grey Knight's alpha strike? That would soften up the opponent which would also reduce the amount of units that will shoot at the Dreadknight since there will be terminators and purifiers using BA/SW drop pods or a cent star with Draigo and friends.
This means that the rest of the army makes the Dreadknight more survivable.
Edit: how could I forget the Dreadknight's civil partner(s) (like total0 said). You usually see singular Riptides but you NEVER see singular Dreadknights.
Grey knights are not what I would call a survivable army, and haven't been since 5th. Even then, it was based on the would allocation tricks you could pull. Grey knights take shots like marines, but are costed above that.
The Grey knights alpha strike doesn't have t1 effectiveness unless they deep strike. Grey knights lack truly long ranged weaponary, unlike the riptides and Tau army. Deep striking has it's own weaknesses, though it can certainly be a strong strategy.
If you are implying that people would rather shoot at other parts of the army OVER a dreadknight, providing both are in range, that just suggests the dreadknight isn't the most threatening thing on the table. The riptide doesn't get shot because it is out of range. If I had a crisis suit squad next to a rip tide, unless I was running meltas (for the ID), I'd shoot the riptide. It's a much scarier enemy.
And what about the rest of my points?
As for your last comment, I don't know your experiences. I will say that Triptide is a thing, while Biknight or Triknight is not. Dreadknights are often run in pairs, true, but Riptides are often run in 2 or 3. It's why it has a nickname
Epartalis wrote: I'm with you grey Templar, it may just be because I don't have many dark eldar players at my local store but I have never seen a scary dark eldar list, not one. Granted I have only played a handful of games against a pure dark eldar list but those games were cake walks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further I rarely see in all my time searching through torrent of fire, dakka, and the rest of the net posts for "competitive" dark eldar. Kinda like seeing a "competitve" Black Templar list. You just don't see it.
Tau cheese is kinda funny to me, the it's a shooting only army that is bs3 across the board. Yes they have marker lights but take those out and you neuter the army.
If the Riptide was toned down a bit and Vespids buffed a bit, they'd be darn near passable in external and internal balance.
The Riptide does not need to be toned down though, really what needs to be changed is the points cost for the Ion Accelerator as even I can agree its to low. Other then that its perfectly fine, if were talking about toning down the Riptide then Grey Knight Dreadknights should also be in the discussion.
No, not really. The Dreadknight can't disintegrate my entire list from 60" away and LOL at any return fire. The Dreadknight has to put itself much more in harms way. The base chasis of the Riptide needs a points boost and then the ion accelerator needs banned or a massive boost. Pointing to a squad and having the whole thing picked up from 60" on a platform that can't be killed is insane. And Riptides effectively can't be killed at 60".
That makes no sense when the Space marines get a Vindicator for what... 115?
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Its only range 24", and its a vehicle. Meaning its much less durable.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Its only range 24", and its a vehicle. Meaning its much less durable.
185 gets you a Plasmacutioner AV 14. So i mean we can go back and forth but the reality is, the Riptide is basically like the Plasmacutioner only LESS effective, and the Plasmacutioner armor makes it very doughty. The Riptide is more survivable against big guns but can be taken down under the weight of plasma/exotic small arms and FORGET about it in combat. It ALMOST auto-loses. Every dog has its day but...
I'm not one of those Tau players who feels the Riptide is "over rated" by people. It really is powerful. But so's a WraithKnight. So are Imperial Knights. So are Necron Wraith units. So are a dozen other examples of things that the enemy has ready acccess to.
Shooting is WHAT Tau DO. And they are good at it. Everyone knows the thing to do with Tau is engage them in melee asap. Not shoot them. So if you really want to explain how the Ion Cannon should be nerfed, first explain to me why you're army isnt built by now to get to them in turn two or three? Even the slowest Rhino moving flat out can be there. Terminators, Land Raiders. Good lord how can anyone complain about a Riptide when Land Raiders run arouns ith two STR 6 AP 3 flamers, AV 14 armor and enough Assault terminators inside to wreck anyones day!
The Riptide is powerful but the answer si the same as it always was: ram your frist through their stomachs and tear out their spines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/08 18:42:10
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
But referring to any LR chassis as AV14 is no more or less accurate than referring to it as av10 or 11.
The Riptide is the same durability, whatever angle the shots are coming from, and while it isn't the best CCMC in the game, will sure as hell outperform a LR in an assault.
You can play the point for point comparison game all day, but one has to take the overall package into consideration, and while they're no doubt not quite the power they were, you'd still have to seriously consider a Riptide for a top 5 units in the game right now. That's a case much harder to make for the Russ chassis.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I have no problem and said as much, placing it in the powerful category. i also know this: there is always going to BE a top 5. Always. Forever. here to eternity.
And were the tables not tilted against Tau for QUITE long enough? I think they were.
So pointing out its placement among the pantheon of powerful units really isnt an argument against it. EVERY unit likes or dislikes things differently and last time i checked a Land raidr WINS most close combats. You hit it on a 3 and you BETTER have something AWESOME, it better be AP 2 or bettr and you better roll well. Or next round its going to burninate you or expel an uber unit into your face. If it didnt already.
Sorry but I can look around and see TOTALLY ubiquitous examples of "powerful" but what remains true is that they all have answers. Some like Land Raiders are just so old and common that we dont think about them in nearly the positive light we should. Others are less common but no less brutal.
D-Cannons for example. EXTREMELY good. RARELY used. tough as nailks, destructive and can be bubble wrapped as well as any strong unit can be. Its range is short but its destructive power is pretty serious and its barrage. No one puts it in the top 5, but dayam. take three of them and wrap them. Move them up for a round if the enemy isnt coming to you and let the fire works begin.
Now in melee it folds like a paper airplace. But getting there might be a trifle difficult and vry dangrous.
total cost? Less. Total impact? about the same minus the round it takes to cart it into position. But then its less. So thats okay.
I only use it as YET another example. one that isnt even going to make the top ten on most peoples list Ill wager.
The Riptide is in no way cheap so my feeling on it is that its VERY GOOD, and WORTH THE POINTS. I think people need to adjust to it by fighting it in melee. and if they refuse that, then I suppose you'll have a long day. Like the day 9 Plasmacutioners showed up. No less ridiculous and absolutely not mentioned on these forums often. dont know why not. Dont care either because nothing exists in a vacuum.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: I have no problem and said as much, placing it in the powerful category. i also know this: there is always going to BE a top 5. Always. Forever. here to eternity.
And were the tables not tilted against Tau for QUITE long enough? I think they were.
So pointing out its placement among the pantheon of powerful units really isnt an argument against it. EVERY unit likes or dislikes things differently and last time i checked a Land raidr WINS most close combats. You hit it on a 3 and you BETTER have something AWESOME, it better be AP 2 or bettr and you better roll well. Or next round its going to burninate you or expel an uber unit into your face. If it didnt already.
Sorry but I can look around and see TOTALLY ubiquitous examples of "powerful" but what remains true is that they all have answers. Some like Land Raiders are just so old and common that we dont think about them in nearly the positive light we should. Others are less common but no less brutal.
D-Cannons for example. EXTREMELY good. RARELY used. tough as nailks, destructive and can be bubble wrapped as well as any strong unit can be. Its range is short but its destructive power is pretty serious and its barrage. No one puts it in the top 5, but dayam. take three of them and wrap them. Move them up for a round if the enemy isnt coming to you and let the fire works begin.
Now in melee it folds like a paper airplace. But getting there might be a trifle difficult and vry dangrous.
total cost? Less. Total impact? about the same minus the round it takes to cart it into position. But then its less. So thats okay.
I only use it as YET another example. one that isnt even going to make the top ten on most peoples list Ill wager.
The Riptide is in no way cheap so my feeling on it is that its VERY GOOD, and WORTH THE POINTS. I think people need to adjust to it by fighting it in melee. and if they refuse that, then I suppose you'll have a long day. Like the day 9 Plasmacutioners showed up. No less ridiculous and absolutely not mentioned on these forums often. dont know why not. Dont care either because nothing exists in a vacuum.
Even in melee, a Riptide can do well. It may not kill a lot, but it can still sweeping advance, smash, has good armor, good toughness, and can get an invuln or FNP. A Riptide is tougher base stats than a Daemon Prince not kitted out and comes with decent stuff standard.
One of the only good ways I've seen to kill Riptides is to swing at Initiative with AP 2 weapons or to bog it down with lots of units, as a Riptide can't kill small guys a lot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/08 22:43:38
No kidding a single DK would murder a Riptide, a Dreadknight was designed to kill MC; you know those Daemon Princes that are T8 melee-monsters? for 50 points cheaper you know what the DK can do? It can punch someone and move 6 inches a turn, Riptide not so much. Also the DK has a chance of removing itself from play from full wounds! horrible ain't it. You state all these things but you fail to notice the only time a Dreadknight is a threat is once it takes all the upgrades, unlike the Riptide who really just has to toss out 5 points. Hell a DK to kill a Riptide would only have to spend 165 total for a damn good chance at killing anything in the game one-on-one
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/08 22:46:49
Jancoran wrote: I have no problem and said as much, placing it in the powerful category. i also know this: there is always going to BE a top 5. Always. Forever. here to eternity.
And were the tables not tilted against Tau for QUITE long enough? I think they were.
So pointing out its placement among the pantheon of powerful units really isnt an argument against it.
Ah, I see, Tau used to be poor, so now it's ok if they're not?
Not the strongest argument I've seen today.
EVERY unit likes or dislikes things differently and last time i checked a Land raidr WINS most close combats. You hit it on a 3 and you BETTER have something AWESOME, it better be AP 2 or bettr and you better roll well. Or next round its going to burninate you or expel an uber unit into your face. If it didnt already.
In this context LR means Leman Russ. As you were the one who was using a Russ as a comparison, I didn't feel I needed to clarify.
Sorry but I can look around and see TOTALLY ubiquitous examples of "powerful" but what remains true is that they all have answers. Some like Land Raiders are just so old and common that we dont think about them in nearly the positive light we should. Others are less common but no less brutal.
I don't think you're seeing people arguing against powerful. Too cheap is much more of an issue.
D-Cannons for example. EXTREMELY good. RARELY used. tough as nailks, destructive and can be bubble wrapped as well as any strong unit can be. Its range is short but its destructive power is pretty serious and its barrage. No one puts it in the top 5, but dayam. take three of them and wrap them. Move them up for a round if the enemy isnt coming to you and let the fire works begin.
Is it possible that maybe they're not quite as good as you think, given that apparently nobody seems to be taking them? I mean, this is the internet, this is the largest wargaming site on it. If you're the only one convinced of their über goodness, statistically, you've probably missed something? Do they, perhaps, occupy a slot that competes for something else? There's probably a reason they're not seeing wide use in competitive play. Doesn't mean they're not good, just that they're not Wraith, Serpent, Tide good.
Now in melee it folds like a paper airplace. But getting there might be a trifle difficult and vry dangrous.
total cost? Less. Total impact? about the same minus the round it takes to cart it into position. But then its less. So thats okay.
I only use it as YET another example. one that isnt even going to make the top ten on most peoples list Ill wager.
,
Ok, it's all got a bit ranty and mistyped at this point and I've lost your point, sorry.
The Riptide is in no way cheap so my feeling on it is that its VERY GOOD, and WORTH THE POINTS. I think people need to adjust to it by fighting it in melee. and if they refuse that, then I suppose you'll have a long day. Like the day 9 Plasmacutioners showed up. No less ridiculous and absolutely not mentioned on these forums often. dont know why not. Dont care either because nothing exists in a vacuum.
Again, there's probably a good reason they're not mentioned in the same breath. Perhaps dealing with 3 AV10 rear tanks that can't punch back poses fewer people a problem than three much more mobile MCs?
EDIT
Also, randomly SHOUTING in the middle of your sentences may be coming across more aggressive than you intend, perhaps try bolting or italics for emphasis?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/08 22:50:36
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
One of the only good ways I've seen to kill Riptides is to swing at Initiative with AP 2 weapons or to bog it down with lots of units, as a Riptide can't kill small guys a lot.
Is it possible that maybe they're not quite as good as you think, given that apparently nobody seems to be taking them? I mean, this is the internet, this is the largest wargaming site on it. If you're the only one convinced of their über goodness, statistically, you've probably missed something? Do they, perhaps, occupy a slot that competes for something else? There's probably a reason they're not seeing wide use in competitive play. Doesn't mean they're not good, just that they're not Wraith, Serpent, Tide good.
Ok, it's all got a bit ranty and mistyped at this point and I've lost your point, sorry.
Again, there's probably a good reason they're not mentioned in the same breath. Perhaps dealing with 3 AV10 rear tanks that can't punch back poses fewer people a problem than three much more mobile MCs?
EDIT
Also, randomly SHOUTING in the middle of your sentences may be coming across more aggressive than you intend, perhaps try bolting or italics for emphasis?
You cant yell on forums. You can tell me that "everyone knows that is yelling" but i guess I would disagree, since i wasn't...yelling. So if there's two ways can choose to take something... and one is reasonable and good, but the second is not, then go with the first one. That's my advice to anyone whose looking for something to complain about. =)
As for your question (really a statement):
I think that the "largest forum" is appealing to higher authority, but you knew that. More specifically, I have run into enough dumb people in every walk of life that should have known better, but didn't. I got a rule wrong yesterday that i was quite sure of and now I know. the wisdom of the ancients isnt here in some vault, I can promise you.
I don't accept the argument that "if a lot of people think one way but one thinks another they must be right..." is valid. I feel as if Galileo and others would most likely have been like I am at times: tried by the inflexibility of people to try or even entertain new ideas. I also know a large pool of people who have learned to respect the proper use of some units in my hands that they thought were garbage. That doesn't make my point of view true either, does it? It just means i have some experience on the matter to share. You can't ever gauge the truth of that so you either have to believe me or don't. It's a forum so it really doesn't matter which you choose.
Here's what I know as wisdom: That there is a WraithKnight I COULD take does not mean the {enter unit here} should not be taken. As reasonable thinking men and women, we know that's silly. What we also know is that army lists are the sum of their parts. The Riptide in any army besides Tau Empire would be too expensive. It is only because of the other units around it that it is so notably feared. The same exact effect can be gotten by other means if one wanted to, depending on the matchup, using much cheaper units. For example, Necrons are now quite resistant to the Riptide Ion Cannon, aren't they? If I peg 8 of them (unlikely but whatevs) I'll kill 5 even with all the help it takes to ignore cover (assentially TWO units costing about 350 points dedicated to killing 5 Necron Warriors). But the Warrior 4+ save means they view the Ionhead the same way they do a Riptide! Same EXACT effectiveness and a LOT cheaper againt Necron Warriors. Shall we all go out and start using Ionheads? Will necron players curse us vociferously for bringing three ion heads and dropping those sweet sweet STR 8 Large Blasts? Who knows?
Like all weapons, their target determines their value. The value isn't totally intrinsic to the weapon.
So the D-Cannons of the world remain in obscurity and unhated while Wraiths and Riptides get hate. What can ya' do? Riptides a bigger moel i suppose so its easier to hate maybe. =)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/09 00:44:16
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
One of the only good ways I've seen to kill Riptides is to swing at Initiative with AP 2 weapons or to bog it down with lots of units, as a Riptide can't kill small guys a lot.
Exactly. So do that.
Oh, okay. Let me just grab my AP 2 weapons that swing at init....
Oh. My faction doesn't have any.
Well surely i have lots of small guys that can swing in melee, yes?
What's that? It has one of the largest range guns in the game and is extremely quick? And the army is one of the best in the game at removing lots of small guys, and I need to get through said army to reach it?
Well...bugger
Is it possible that maybe they're not quite as good as you think, given that apparently nobody seems to be taking them? I mean, this is the internet, this is the largest wargaming site on it. If you're the only one convinced of their über goodness, statistically, you've probably missed something? Do they, perhaps, occupy a slot that competes for something else? There's probably a reason they're not seeing wide use in competitive play. Doesn't mean they're not good, just that they're not Wraith, Serpent, Tide good.
Ok, it's all got a bit ranty and mistyped at this point and I've lost your point, sorry.
Again, there's probably a good reason they're not mentioned in the same breath. Perhaps dealing with 3 AV10 rear tanks that can't punch back poses fewer people a problem than three much more mobile MCs?
EDIT
Also, randomly SHOUTING in the middle of your sentences may be coming across more aggressive than you intend, perhaps try bolting or italics for emphasis?
You cant yell on forums. You can tell me that "everyone knows that is yelling" but i guess I would disagree, since i wasn't...yelling. So if there's two ways can choose to take something... and one is reasonable and good, but the second is not, then go with the first one. That's my advice to anyone whose looking for something to complain about. =)
People are unreasonable all the time, and caps lock is commonly taken as yelling.
Regardless, it's hard to take someone SERIOUSLY who does THIS.
I think that the "largest forum" is appealing to higher authority, but you knew that. More specifically, I have run into enough dumb people in every walk of life that should have known better, but didn't. I got a rule wrong yesterday that i was quite sure of and now I know. the wisdom of the ancients isnt here in some vault, I can promise you.
Yes, that is appealing to authority.
I don't really get your third sentence. You got a rule wrong and so knowledge isn't available on dakka? I find that, in a forum, its hard to get a rule wrong. People are too anxious to point out another's mistake to discredit them.
I don't accept the argument that "if a lot of people think one way but one thinks another they must be right..." is valid. I feel as if Galileo and others would most likely have been like I am at times: tried by the inflexibility of people to try or even entertain new ideas. I also know a large pool of people who have learned to respect the proper use of some units in my hands that they thought were garbage. That doesn't make my point of view true either, does it? It just means i have some experience on the matter to share. You can't ever gauge the truth of that so you either have to believe me or don't. It's a forum so it really doesn't matter which you choose.
First off, comparing yourself to Galileo takes massive brass ones. Kudos.
Second, for every Galileo there were a thousand people who were just wrong.
Third, if you feel a unit that is commonly viewed as sub par or average is overpowered, you need to be ready to defend that position. That is true in science (you'll notice Galileo used math and science to back up his thoughts, and not just "God the church is so inflexible!") and in most cases where you go against common logic.
If you feel it's as strong as the riptide, please state how. I'd be interested to hear it, it's not a unit I see commonly taken either.
Here's what I know as wisdom: That there is a WraithKnight I COULD take does not mean the {enter unit here} should not be taken. As reasonable thinking men and women, we know that's silly. What we also know is that army lists are the sum of their parts. The Riptide in any army besides Tau Empire would be too expensive. It is only because of the other units around it that it is so notably feared. The same exact effect can be gotten by other means if one wanted to, depending on the matchup, using much cheaper units. For example, Necrons are now quite resistant to the Riptide Ion Cannon, aren't they? If I peg 8 of them (unlikely but whatevs) I'll kill 5 even with all the help it takes to ignore cover (assentially TWO units costing about 350 points dedicated to killing 5 Necron Warriors). But the Warrior 4+ save means they view the Ionhead the same way they do a Riptide! Same EXACT effectiveness and a LOT cheaper againt Necron Warriors. Shall we all go out and start using Ionheads? Will necron players curse us vociferously for bringing three ion heads and dropping those sweet sweet STR 8 Large Blasts? Who knows?
I don't understand the first few sentences. Unit strength is relative. If chaos didn't have cult units, cultists, bikers, princes, warp talons would seem like a viable choice. But we do, so they are terrible. It is the same with every codex. You look at what units are in the game, what you can field, and pick the strongest ones (for the sake of unit strength. real games may vary).
Wraiths are going to be a good counter to the Riptide in general, due to their increased toughness. The strength of the riptide will go down because of that.
But the same can be said for a lot of strong units. Grav guns don't do a lot versus the new wraiths either. It'll be weight of fire that brings them down, and a lot of weight of fire at that. But every unit was impacted by the necron codex, it's very powerful. Not just tau. Since every unit got a bit weaker, relatively speaking, the riptide stays at the same level.
Like all weapons, their target determines their value. The value isn't totally intrinsic to the weapon.
So the D-Cannons of the world remain in obscurity and unhated while Wraiths and Riptides get hate. What can ya' do? Riptides a bigger moel i suppose so its easier to hate maybe. =)
So you think the riptide gets more hate because it's a bigger model?
That is...an interesting view point.
I think it is much more likely that the riptide and wraiths are some of the strongest model in the game, and cause the average to weaker codexes a lot of trouble.
Oh, okay. Let me just grab my AP 2 weapons that swing at init....
Oh. My faction doesn't have any.
Well surely i have lots of small guys that can swing in melee, yes?
What's that? It has one of the largest range guns in the game and is extremely quick? And the army is one of the best in the game at removing lots of small guys, and I need to get through said army to reach it?
Well...bugger
.
well I think you just ned to have a better attitude about it. Lol. last time I looked, no Tau Empire force is unbeatable. Just sayin.
Also the list of tyhings you "dont understand" is long enough that I think it not wise to continue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 01:07:30
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Oh, okay. Let me just grab my AP 2 weapons that swing at init....
Oh. My faction doesn't have any.
Well surely i have lots of small guys that can swing in melee, yes?
What's that? It has one of the largest range guns in the game and is extremely quick? And the army is one of the best in the game at removing lots of small guys, and I need to get through said army to reach it?
Well...bugger
.
well I think you just ned to have a better attitude about it. Lol. last time I looked, no Tau Empire force is unbeatable. Just sayin.
This is called a slippery slope.
No unit in a dice game is unbeatable. I can defeat a Tau opponent. But the more riptides he takes, the worse my chances are, and it's a nearly braindead unit to use or take.
Still, I appreciate your tactical insight and sound logic.
On topic;
I think in most games, even a 56% win rate is considered way too strong. In WMH, Cryx at one point had a win rate of 58% due to Gaspy 2 and he recieved 3 nerfs over the years. His feat was just incredible.
But the game has a lot more statistical data available for whatever reason. It's really hard to find information on the 'meta' in 40k. Hence these long discussions on which factions are op, or which units are just too good.
EDIT
And personal attacks from someone who didn't list a single point to back up a claim?
Nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 01:11:03
Riptide is not better then a Dreadknight for a few reasons:
-For 50 points cheaper the Dreadknight only has 1 less wound.
-Both have a 2+5+ and before you say it the Riptide Invulnerable save has a 1/3 chance to fail and hurt itself with NO saves of any kind.
-Exagerration clearly on the points boost, I would say max upgrade the Ion Accelerator to 20pts. and leave the model as because its perfectly balanced. If the Riptide goes up, the Dreadknight better go up to, typical Tau hate.
-60 inch range does not matter when you can move 12 inches every turn on top of a free 30 shunt move putting you RIGHT in front of your opponent, or even better Deepstrike in on turn 1.
-Access to Psychic powers which can give your Gatling Psilencer Instant Death, Flamer and Sword for cheaper then most upgraded Riptides
Sorry your argument is incorrect, a single Dreadknight would WOOP a single Riptide.
Didn't mean to derail the thread, just needed to educate. In regards to a 50% win percentage being cheesy no idea how or why that would even be or come up in a conversation or game. If people are accusing you that its only your army is why your doing so well (like Eldar, Imperium Army Shenanigans, Necrons or whatever you play) let them. You play with the armies and units you want to play with, the only thing I would always keep in mind is what kind of game it is (friendly, competitive ect.) and also the skill level of your opponent.
Yet I'd rather have a free Riptide over a free Dreadknight any day and twice on Sunday.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/02/09 13:57:07
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Epartalis wrote: I'm with you grey Templar, it may just be because I don't have many dark eldar players at my local store but I have never seen a scary dark eldar list, not one. Granted I have only played a handful of games against a pure dark eldar list but those games were cake walks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further I rarely see in all my time searching through torrent of fire, dakka, and the rest of the net posts for "competitive" dark eldar. Kinda like seeing a "competitve" Black Templar list. You just don't see it.
Tau cheese is kinda funny to me, the it's a shooting only army that is bs3 across the board. Yes they have marker lights but take those out and you neuter the army.
If the Riptide was toned down a bit and Vespids buffed a bit, they'd be darn near passable in external and internal balance.
The Riptide does not need to be toned down though, really what needs to be changed is the points cost for the Ion Accelerator as even I can agree its to low. Other then that its perfectly fine, if were talking about toning down the Riptide then Grey Knight Dreadknights should also be in the discussion.
No, not really. The Dreadknight can't disintegrate my entire list from 60" away and LOL at any return fire. The Dreadknight has to put itself much more in harms way. The base chasis of the Riptide needs a points boost and then the ion accelerator needs banned or a massive boost. Pointing to a squad and having the whole thing picked up from 60" on a platform that can't be killed is insane. And Riptides effectively can't be killed at 60".
Riptide is not better then a Dreadknight for a few reasons:
-For 50 points cheaper the Dreadknight only has 1 less wound.
-Both have a 2+5+ and before you say it the Riptide Invulnerable save has a 1/3 chance to fail and hurt itself with NO saves of any kind.
-Exagerration clearly on the points boost, I would say max upgrade the Ion Accelerator to 20pts. and leave the model as because its perfectly balanced. If the Riptide goes up, the Dreadknight better go up to, typical Tau hate.
-60 inch range does not matter when you can move 12 inches every turn on top of a free 30 shunt move putting you RIGHT in front of your opponent, or even better Deepstrike in on turn 1.
-Access to Psychic powers which can give your Gatling Psilencer Instant Death, Flamer and Sword for cheaper then most upgraded Riptides
Sorry your argument is incorrect, a single Dreadknight would WOOP a single Riptide.
Didn't mean to derail the thread, just needed to educate. In regards to a 50% win percentage being cheesy no idea how or why that would even be or come up in a conversation or game. If people are accusing you that its only your army is why your doing so well (like Eldar, Imperium Army Shenanigans, Necrons or whatever you play) let them. You play with the armies and units you want to play with, the only thing I would always keep in mind is what kind of game it is (friendly, competitive ect.) and also the skill level of your opponent.
Yet I'd rather have a free Riptide over a free Dreadknight any day and twice on Sunday.
Except not. I'd say they are about on par with each other, but I've seen several cases where a DK and a Riptide were locked in combat. A DK, unless rolling hot and the Riptide is rolling poorly, will nout outright woop a Riptide. I think they are both underpriced units that could use a price increase.
Also, you fail to include the fact that the Riptide has much better army-wide synergy than a single DK.
One of the only good ways I've seen to kill Riptides is to swing at Initiative with AP 2 weapons or to bog it down with lots of units, as a Riptide can't kill small guys a lot.
Exactly. So do that.
And Eldar WraithKnights are fine because they can be bogged down in combat too? Guess what, having one strategy to take down a pretty widely used unit is poor game design. Also, outside of a couple instances, there aren't a lot of units that swing at Init with AP 2.
So nerf the Riptide.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/09 02:25:26
Epartalis wrote: I'm with you grey Templar, it may just be because I don't have many dark eldar players at my local store but I have never seen a scary dark eldar list, not one. Granted I have only played a handful of games against a pure dark eldar list but those games were cake walks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further I rarely see in all my time searching through torrent of fire, dakka, and the rest of the net posts for "competitive" dark eldar. Kinda like seeing a "competitve" Black Templar list. You just don't see it.
Tau cheese is kinda funny to me, the it's a shooting only army that is bs3 across the board. Yes they have marker lights but take those out and you neuter the army.
If the Riptide was toned down a bit and Vespids buffed a bit, they'd be darn near passable in external and internal balance.
The Riptide does not need to be toned down though, really what needs to be changed is the points cost for the Ion Accelerator as even I can agree its to low. Other then that its perfectly fine, if were talking about toning down the Riptide then Grey Knight Dreadknights should also be in the discussion.
No, not really. The Dreadknight can't disintegrate my entire list from 60" away and LOL at any return fire. The Dreadknight has to put itself much more in harms way. The base chasis of the Riptide needs a points boost and then the ion accelerator needs banned or a massive boost. Pointing to a squad and having the whole thing picked up from 60" on a platform that can't be killed is insane. And Riptides effectively can't be killed at 60".
"Sorry your argument is incorrect, a single Dreadknight would WOOP a single Riptide."
Too bad I'm not talking Riptide vs Dreadknight. I'm talking about Riptide vs my lists and Dreadknight vs my lists. As I said the Riptide does its business from 60" away. That makes it MUCH better than a Dreadknight in my book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 02:27:23
I must agree with Grey Templar in that DE winning 64%+ is crazy high. That being said, this chart is junk.
The percentages don't add up to 100%. Grey Knights and DE rank highly, but they only have 9 games apiece. Most importantly, the grid doesn't represent matchup. Ideally, you would have a grid that has 2 axis, with all the factions on both axis. Against itself, every faction would be 50% (if Eldar play Eldar, there must be 1 win and 1 loss). On any other matchup it should read, for example, Eldar v SM, 60% Eldar win.
There should be a large sample size (say, at least 100 of each matchup; 500 or 1000 would be better), and ideally, you exclude all players who win 0 games in the year.
In the current dataset, if Dark Eldar play a disproportionate number of games against Dark Angels, all we could determine is that it's a bad matchup. Perhaps if the DA player played 8 more games, all against Orks, they'd win all 8 games and score 50% total.
Epartalis wrote: I'm with you grey Templar, it may just be because I don't have many dark eldar players at my local store but I have never seen a scary dark eldar list, not one. Granted I have only played a handful of games against a pure dark eldar list but those games were cake walks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further I rarely see in all my time searching through torrent of fire, dakka, and the rest of the net posts for "competitive" dark eldar. Kinda like seeing a "competitve" Black Templar list. You just don't see it.
Tau cheese is kinda funny to me, the it's a shooting only army that is bs3 across the board. Yes they have marker lights but take those out and you neuter the army.
If the Riptide was toned down a bit and Vespids buffed a bit, they'd be darn near passable in external and internal balance.
The Riptide does not need to be toned down though, really what needs to be changed is the points cost for the Ion Accelerator as even I can agree its to low. Other then that its perfectly fine, if were talking about toning down the Riptide then Grey Knight Dreadknights should also be in the discussion.
No, not really. The Dreadknight can't disintegrate my entire list from 60" away and LOL at any return fire. The Dreadknight has to put itself much more in harms way. The base chasis of the Riptide needs a points boost and then the ion accelerator needs banned or a massive boost. Pointing to a squad and having the whole thing picked up from 60" on a platform that can't be killed is insane. And Riptides effectively can't be killed at 60".
"Sorry your argument is incorrect, a single Dreadknight would WOOP a single Riptide."
Too bad I'm not talking Riptide vs Dreadknight. I'm talking about Riptide vs my lists and Dreadknight vs my lists. As I said the Riptide does its business from 60" away. That makes it MUCH better than a Dreadknight in my book.
Indeed. Shooting has been better than melee for several editions. The Dreadknight only has a chance to get there with its teleporter. Not to mention it has to buy its guns too. The only competitive dreadknight is 205+ points.
Its guns are good, but not amazing. Its decent in combat against anything that doesn't have too many AP2 attacks that hit it first.
The Dreadknight is good, but the Riptide is amazing.
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Incidentally, if you want to know what happens when GKs with lots of Dreadknights plays against a good Tau player with a competitive Tau army... they get tabled after about two rounds of shooting. What little survives running through the killzone gets picked apart on Overwatch. Not that the Dreadknights won't get into combat and kill something, but losing a Riptide or two before blowing away the rest of the army isn't a big deal.
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DarkLink wrote: Incidentally, if you want to know what happens when GKs with lots of Dreadknights plays against a good Tau player with a competitive Tau army... they get tabled after about two rounds of shooting. What little survives running through the killzone gets picked apart on Overwatch. Not that the Dreadknights won't get into combat and kill something, but losing a Riptide or two before blowing away the rest of the army isn't a big deal.
Getting into combat is a very low bar. So many units get into combat, smoosh one throwaway unit and then eat 20 plasma guns the next turn. I've done it with my lowly BA to superior assault lists over and over. BA don't exactly have 20 plasma guns, but you get the idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 04:29:00
DarkLink wrote: Incidentally, if you want to know what happens when GKs with lots of Dreadknights plays against a good Tau player with a competitive Tau army... they get tabled after about two rounds of shooting. What little survives running through the killzone gets picked apart on Overwatch. Not that the Dreadknights won't get into combat and kill something, but losing a Riptide or two before blowing away the rest of the army isn't a big deal.
Getting into combat is a very low bar. So many units get into combat, smoosh one throwaway unit and then eat 20 plasma guns the next turn. I've done it with my lowly BA to superior assault lists over and over. BA don't exactly have 20 plasma guns, but you get the idea.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying assaulting Tau is easy or not?
Oh, okay. Let me just grab my AP 2 weapons that swing at init....
Oh. My faction doesn't have any.
Well surely i have lots of small guys that can swing in melee, yes?
What's that? It has one of the largest range guns in the game and is extremely quick? And the army is one of the best in the game at removing lots of small guys, and I need to get through said army to reach it?
Well...bugger
.
well I think you just ned to have a better attitude about it. Lol. last time I looked, no Tau Empire force is unbeatable. Just sayin.
This is called a slippery slope.
No unit in a dice game is unbeatable. I can defeat a Tau opponent. But the more riptides he takes, the worse my chances are, and it's a nearly braindead unit to use or take.
Still, I appreciate your tactical insight and sound logic.
On topic;
I think in most games, even a 56% win rate is considered way too strong. In WMH, Cryx at one point had a win rate of 58% due to Gaspy 2 and he recieved 3 nerfs over the years. His feat was just incredible.
But the game has a lot more statistical data available for whatever reason. It's really hard to find information on the 'meta' in 40k. Hence these long discussions on which factions are op, or which units are just too good.
EDIT
And personal attacks from someone who didn't list a single point to back up a claim?
Nice.
Theres discussion and then there's brick walls. Now you're claiming that ayone wise enough to make use of a Riptide is... brain dead? This is the discussion i should engage in?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: He's saying that its hard to assault Tau, because he destroys the unit in assault on his turn and then gets shot to death.
My Night Lords solved it with their Rhinos. Shuts off the fire hose on the way in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 07:30:32
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Good Points Akiasura and it is refreshing to see someone who actually wants to discus the topic rather then just say "Riptide is overpowered and needs a fix because it does" argument that many seem to toss out on here, now if I may respond:
Akiasura wrote: The Riptide pays roughly 40-50 points per wound as it is, so this seems fair. The riptide is a lot more survivable between not relying on pyskers, long range weapons, and better saves as well, so really the dreadknight seems over priced in relation.
Note I say in relation. I am not saying either is priced fairly, but relatively speaking,so far it seems the dreadknight is more fairly costed.
-The only thing that I can see making the Riptide more survivable is the fact it has the advantage of range with shooting when it comes to the Dreadknight. It does not have a better save then the Dreadknight and failing a save with no saves of any kind allowed unless you take an expensive upgrade to give it "Feel No Pain" 1/3 of the time is much worse then the chance of failing a LD9/LD10 check.
Akiasura wrote: True. However, your point is very misleading. Let's not forget that first off, the failure happens less then half the time, and the survival jump is about equal to the chances of wounding (33%). The Riptide can gain FnP as well, which helps. The Riptide is not likely to be targetted by grav weapons, plasma, melta, or any other weapon it should fear unless the unit is deep striked. The Dreadknight really wants to touch you, while the Riptide wants to hang on the opposite table edge and fire at you. It is very easy for the Riptide to hug cover. The Riptides weapons can gain ignore cover or BS improvements from the rest of the army, which is huge on a unit like this.
-It is not an attempt by me to mislead you its just a fact that something that has a chance to fail 1/3 of the time is by no means reliable and has hurt me, and as I am sure other Tau players can attest, more then we care to admit. And yes we can get Feel No Pain but it is a very expensive upgrade and by doing that we are forgoing a chance or Skyfire or Interceptor. And I am somewhat confused by saying how a Riptide will not be hurt by weapons unless they are Deep Striking? Granted it would help I will give you that but on most tables are not nearly that long to completely negate such weapons, most weapons designed to handle armor will handily drop Riptides. Grav Cannons alone are the bane of any Tau players Riptides in particular. You then mention how its easy for the Riptide to hug cover, surely it is the same for the Dreadknight then? The Dreadknight is vastly more maneuverable then the Riptide and more often then not can move into cover faster and more reliably, on top of almost always getting the turn 2 assault it requires. You bring up other parts of the army that accent the Riptide, yes Markerlights are great but at the same time they are a crutch as they are not as cheap as people make them out to be. Also more often then not they are on T3 and T4 models with a 5+ or 4+ save which makes them VERY easy to kill and if they are gone the effectiveness of the Tau army as a whole goes down. If you want to touch on other parts of the army supporting then I should mention that the Imperium of Man have probably the strongest army in the game as a whole thanks to their ability to ally. Having Dreadknights backed by an Imperial Knight or even worse, Purifiers in Drop Pods is very nasty and can do different things then Markerlights, but they are just as nasty.
Akiasura wrote: 12 Inches plus 30 is only 42, so it still loses to the 60 range of the gun. If it deepstrikes, it can't assault. So the Riptide is doing it's thing turn 1, while the dreadknight is waiting till turn 2 or later depending on incoming fire. In a game that lasts only 5-7 turns, that can be a huge improvement on table presence. Let's not forget the dreadknight is moving forward, into enemy fire. A unit of TWC can destroy a dreadknight if properly kitted. They have a much harder time dealing with a riptide.
-Will mention to what I said above, I have yet to play on a table that has 42 inches separating my army from his opponent, the only tables that wide are for Apocalypse games. The Dreadknight can easily do its thing Turn 1 as more often then not 30 inches is more then enough distance to get them within striking distance. Yes the Dreadknight is moving closer then the Riptide, which is the biggest thing that makes these two MC's different, however along with the Dreadknights you could have several squads of Terminators coming in via deepstrike, purifiers in drop pods ect. And granted I am using elements that support the Dreadknight and not saying the Tau do not have access to equally nasty stuff, however at that point we are comparing two different play styles which both of these MC's help. Alpha Strike for Grey Knights and more Defensive shooty approach by the Tau.
Akiasura wrote: Psychic powers are very unreliable in my experience. I'd rather have markerlights then powers outside of a few crazy ones.
-For the most part Grey Knights and Psychic Powers go hand in hand very well and they usually have no issue getting spells off thanks to the amount of Psykers and Warp Charges. Granted though my Riptides Nova Charge I have been very unlucky with so that is a personal experience with me where something should be good but isn't!
Akiasura wrote: Luckily that would never happen. When discussing balance, you don't put two units on the table and have them fight each other. You discuss their impact on metas or armies. The Riptide has a much larger presence here. Or are you saying markerlights are useless? After all, nearly every unit in the game walks over pathfinders 1v1.
-Fair enough a poor comparison on my part but on the topic of armies the Riptide does not have a larger presence then the Dreadknight as both are large parts of what their respective armies do. Grey Knights as of now are at their nastiest in the form of Alpha Striking while Tau prefer to sit back and blast away with their guns (should be mentioned I do not play my Tau this way, I play them quite unconventionally which catches people off guard). Just like Markerlights make Tau better the amount of Psychic powers, Ally shenanigans, ect. that the Grey Knights have is just as nasty.
Akiasura wrote: No problem, I don't mind a little education myself when it is being provided. Some armies are harder to win with then others. In a balanced game, this would be a matchup discussion (Like how Cryx has an advantage against Skorne, but has issues with cygnar. Skorne has an advantage against cygnar). In 40k, certain codexes are just head and shoulders above others. They are flat out easier to win with then others. in 40k, these dexes are Tau, Eldar, IoM (needs allies to achieve this often, but it certainly can), and Necrons. My meta disallows Knights so I won't comment there. If you are winning with these armies it's not as impressive as winning with, say, De or DA. Some people get mad at that, I can understand why. It's not always their fault that their codex is overpowered. But reality is reality.
I can agree that some armies are harder to win with then others but truly I do not see the Tau being head and shoulders over most Imperial books. Honestly I look at the top books as Eldar (both of them), Necrons, Imperial of Man and then the Tau for one reason that I feel is often overlooked. The ability to ally and take anything from any of those books in your army, that is why I have both the Eldar and the Imperial Armies up there. Unlike the Tau, Necrons, Orks ect. the Imperial armies have the most flexibility and options when it comes to building their lists and they can come up with some nasty ones. You are lucky your meta does not allow Knights, fighting that formation that gives them all a 3+ Invulnerable save is a tough matchup, especially against the new Forgeworld Knights. I am not saying that the Tau are a weak book because they are better then some, however the amount of hate they get, in particular the Riptide when compared to some of the things that other books can do, in particular the Imperium of Man armies it is kind of hypocritical.
And on that note just because some people want to play with an army they enjoy does not make them a less skilled or worse player. That is like saying "because I play Tau im a gakky general and cant win unless I use this unit". That is completely false, if anything he is being a smart general utilizing good units to help him win, should he take the worst units in the game to appease his opponent because he does not know how to deal with a single unit? I can agree it is more impressive to win with some armies but I wont say any of the Imperial Armies because of their abilities to ally and take basically anything they want. If it was an army like CSM, ORKS or TYRANIDS then yes that statement is true. I also want to point out that I do play both IMPERIAL GUARD and TAU so I have been and am on both sides of the argument so no bias here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 07:43:43
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"-The only thing that I can see making the Riptide more survivable is the fact it has the advantage of range with shooting when it comes to the Dreadknight"
That, and better saves. And access to FNP. Don't forget that. And even that one thing you listed is enormous. Huge. Go look at how many weapons can even reach past 36" and then look at what the Dreadknight has to voluntarily move into within range of.
~1.5k
from full wounds! horrible ain't it. You state all these things but you fail to notice the only time a Dreadknight is a threat is once it takes all the upgrades, unlike the Riptide who really just has to toss out 5 points. Hell a 
So pointing out its placement among the pantheon of powerful units really isnt an argument against it. 
You can tell me that "everyone knows that is yelling" but i guess I would disagree, since i wasn't...yelling. So if there's two ways can choose to take something... and one is reasonable and good, but the second is not, then go with the first one. That's my advice to anyone whose looking for something to complain about. =)
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