How Tall are Space Marines? I'm gathering references

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**Void__Dragon**

If you know what I mean, huehuehuehue.

**Ashiraya**

It causes them no shortage of self-confidence issues.

**Furyou Miko**

Void__Dragon wrote:

Narrative hyperbole exists, especially when the story is told in first-person like Eisenhorn.

Ssh, Don't explain the joke.

**Finlandiaperkele**

Still gathering? Found this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/touts/2015-01-30/Homepage/Header_carousel/SpaceMarinePromoENG_Slot2.jpg

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Narrative hyperbole exists, especially when the story is told in first-person like Eisenhorn.

Nah, Ashiraya explained to me how we must take seriously and literally comments about Astartes moving “too fast for the eye to follow”, and therefore at supersonic speed

.

**kveldulf**

Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Still gathering? Found this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/touts/2015-01-30/Homepage/Header_carousel/SpaceMarinePromoENG_Slot2.jpg

Meh, that shouldn't be taken seriously. Why would they choose a 5'4 male to compare sizes to a space marine if it wasn't for effect; its to show just how BIG your prize is. The guy is probably 6'2 but Photoshopped

**Finlandiaperkele**

kveldulf wrote:
Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Still gathering? Found this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/touts/2015-01-30/Homepage/Header_carousel/SpaceMarinePromoENG_Slot2.jpg

Meh, that shouldn't be taken seriously. Why would they choose a 5'4 male to compare sizes to a space marine if it wasn't for effect; its to show just how BIG your prize is. The guy is probably 6'2 but Photoshopped

You didn't happen to notice the height marks?

**Alpharius**

Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Still gathering? Found this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/touts/2015-01-30/Homepage/Header_carousel/SpaceMarinePromoENG_Slot2.jpg

Yup, still 'debating' it!

I go with this one:

Seems very Official and Totes Legit.

And since BL write the most about Space Marines, they've got the preponderance of evidence on their side!

Kind of.

**Ashiraya**

He doesn't actually stand straight on that picture. I wonder how many inches it'd add?

**Alpharius**

Probably just nudge him over 8', but good point!

**Wyzilla**

Alpharius wrote:
Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Still gathering? Found this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/touts/2015-01-30/Homepage/Header_carousel/SpaceMarinePromoENG_Slot2.jpg

Yup, still 'debating' it!

I go with this one:

Seems very Official and Totes Legit.

And since BL write the most about Space Marines, they've got the preponderance of evidence on their side!

Kind of.

Eight feet does seem to be the best height.

Actually here's an idea, why not just average the collective recorded heights?

**Bobthehero**

Average would be something above 7', might hit 8', but I doubt it would be higher, especially if you count primarches out and stick to actual numbers rather than figure of speech.

**Wyzilla**

Just checked, average of all the numbers is ~2.34 meters. Or around seven feet and six inches.

**Kepora**

Marines aren't cookie cutter; individual biology and geneseed quirks play a major role. Some space marines an be undersized, barely larger then an average human; others are so large that they need armor modified using scrap terminator parts!

**NorseSig**

I'd say they stand anywhere from 7ft to 7.5ft on average. I'd say their boots add about 2 inches (pretty thick boot soles). I'd say the armor maybe adds another inch or two not counting the spartan mohawk thing they got going on with helmets. Though I imagine like most people the size of the space marines can vary quite a bit. It might not be unheard of to see an 8ft+ marine. It just wouldn't be common. You might even see marines under the 7ft mark too, but again probably not very common. I imagine their augmentations regulate their growth to a certain degree making a more constant 7ft mark, but there would still be exceptions and anomilies.

**Finlandiaperkele**

As a conclusion, I'd say:

from 7ft to 8ft. More or less. Some marines are said to be near primarch size, and other just merely taller than tall humans.

Depends on;
- What source you (want to) believe.
- The marine. Human height varies, so why not Astartes?

7.5ft as a median.

**NinjaJc01**

Deadnight wrote:
warboss wrote:I've always seen the ballpark figures of 7' for the space marine and 8' in armor.

They don't wear heels. Armour won't add a foot to their height.

You forget the backpack, at least 3in over unhelmeted marines sometimes.

**the ancient**

And 3" under a unhelmeted marine sometimes. Depending on whos doing the art work.
Armour might add 6-12" overall. My work boots have a 2" sole. Theyre not armoured, dont have magnetics or spikes or what ever extras pa might have, and dont have to support 750 odd kg.

**odinsgrandson**

Finlandiaperkele wrote:
- The marine. Human height varies, so why not Astartes?

Well, I have minis, you know, and their heights do not vary. Except based on rank- which is to say that, like Orks, the Astartes do tend to promote based on height.

Actually, the trouble with "varying heights" is that the fans never seem to think it varies downward. If an average marine is 7 foot tall (probably the most cited number, especially in contexts that give an average marine height) and a tall marine is close to 8 foot tall, that's all good. But then a short marine should be 6 foot tall, right?

GW have given the 7 foot number as an average (marine height without specifying the marine). But we want to say that they vary, and that the 'average' marine is the shortest possible marine.

**Wyzilla**

odinsgrandson wrote:
Finlandiaperkele wrote:
- The marine. Human height varies, so why not Astartes?

Well, I have minis, you know, and their heights do not vary. Except based on rank- which is to say that, like Orks, the Astartes do tend to promote based on height.

Actually, the trouble with "varying heights" is that the fans never seem to think it varies downward. If an average marine is 7 foot tall (probably the most cited number, especially in contexts that give an average marine height) and a tall marine is close to 8 foot tall, that's all good. But then a short marine should be 6 foot tall, right?

GW have given the 7 foot number as an average (marine height without specifying the marine). But we want to say that they vary, and that the 'average' marine is the shortest possible marine.

That's not how it works. You average all data collected to get the average, not take one number as average. GW may state one thing, then immediately publish another and stamp it as A-OK for publishing.

Also-

Did you seriously just suggest the miniatures are any example of accurate size? That anyone should even take them seriously for a second? That they aren't worthless as a source of information and horribly out of scale with godawful proportions?

**Shidank**

Ashiraya wrote:
Maybe Arbites have really small truncheons.

Don't tell them that.

They have bigger ones back at the Arbite cave.

**Grey Templar**

odinsgrandson wrote:
Terminator armor definitely makes the minis taller. As I understand it, almost no one accepts the miniatures as a legitimate source of fluff when a question arises.

Void__Dragon wrote:
I am here to save the thread.

odinsgrandson wrote:
Hey- do you have any references on those Primarch heights? I found one about how Leman Russ was pretty tall in comparison to other Space Wolves, but that's all the references I could find.

I do.

In Descent of Angels an unarmoured Lion El'Jonson is said to be slightly over three meters tall, and towering over armoured Marines. So we have a Primarch never said to be particularly tall or short standing at about ten feet tall.

In Battle for the Fang, Magnus the Red (who was explicitly taking on the same form he took during the Great Crusade) is said to be five meters tall. So a fething massive height of nearly seventeen feet. He was said to be a giant even among his brothers.

Anyway, for another reference to Space Marine height, there's this thread I made:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/567966.page

I found this finding most interesting because of Abnett's reputation for having Marines be truly gigantic.

In the Deathwatch RPG, Marines are said to be over 210 cm on average, so about seven feet.

Battle of the Fang has some references on Marine height as well, but I can't really recall them. I think a Marine in Terminator armour was nearly three meters, but this novel went with the common "Terminator armour makes you really tall" idea, which I've never really been able to stomach.

We'll need to add those to the list.

Any page numbers on those? I'd especially like on from the Deathwatch book (as it is the second one to give the 210cm height).

I wouldn't use Magnus's height as anything to go by. He was full on Daemon Prince at that point so he could be whatever size he wanted.

**Void__Dragon**

He explicitly chose to take the form he took during the Great Crusade.

**odinsgrandson**

Wyzilla wrote:

Did you seriously just suggest the miniatures are any example of accurate size? That anyone should even take them seriously for a second? That they aren't worthless as a source of information and horribly out of scale with godawful proportions?

Not seriously. I mean, everyone just assumes that the minis are wrong whenever there's an inconsistency.

I think that the minis are a source of fluff- as are the rules of the game, the artwork, the history, the videogames and novels. They are all objects that tell us a story- and the stories aren't all the same. I don't see what's so much different about the minis being off scale in comparison to the books or history- they're just one more bit of fluff. Sure, there are inconsistencies and mistakes on them, but how is that different from the books/pictures/videogames/histories/rules?

The miniatures do tell us a story- just not one that most of us accept, because the story is that the 41st millenium is inhabited by heroically proportioned, large people who are subject to an evolving scale creep. And that's a little silly, so we have all agreed to dismiss it.

I thought it was hilarious when they made the scale creep of the orks into cannonized fluff in the history sections.

**Wyzilla**

odinsgrandson wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:

Did you seriously just suggest the miniatures are any example of accurate size? That anyone should even take them seriously for a second? That they aren't worthless as a source of information and horribly out of scale with godawful proportions?

Not seriously. I mean, everyone just assumes that the minis are wrong whenever there's an inconsistency.

I think that the minis are a source of fluff- as are the rules of the game, the artwork, the history, the videogames and novels. They are all objects that tell us a story- and the stories aren't all the same. I don't see what's so much different about the minis being off scale in comparison to the books or history- they're just one more bit of fluff. Sure, there are inconsistencies and mistakes on them, but how is that different from the books/pictures/videogames/histories/rules?

The miniatures do tell us a story- just not one that most of us accept, because the story is that the 41st millenium is inhabited by heroically proportioned, large people who are subject to an evolving scale creep. And that's a little silly, so we have all agreed to dismiss it.

I thought it was hilarious when they made the scale creep of the orks into cannonized fluff in the history sections.

The miniatures are for a game, seperate entirely from the "actual" reality of 40K, along with the rules. Not to mention that heroic scale doesn't make a shred of sense- everything is wrong, from the size of the tanks to the size of titans. Not to mention the proportions are godawfully designed.

Spoiler:

Along with the TT being completely dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up with a full purge of uncessary rules, it could also use a change in the model department. I believe the new Blood Angels are slightly better these days, but good god my CSM's still use this body design.

**odinsgrandson**

Wyzilla wrote:

The miniatures are for a game, seperate entirely from the "actual" reality of 40K, along with the rules...

I feel like you've sort of put your argument into a strange place here. Clearly, none of that which we call 40k has any kind of 'reality.'

I mean, ultimately, we're talking about Wolverine's bone claws -every answer is just as right, and they contradict one another, so we simply have to choose which one we'd like to accept. Then we fight about it when someone else thinks a different source is the right one.

And on top of that, it seems like all of our sources for 40k fluff is suspect, because all of it is very stylized (from the minis proportions, the Blanchian grit on the canvass, or the exaggerations of the novels and even the perspectives of the history-style fluff).

I just think it is odd that no one thinks the minis are the one that is 'right.'

**Ashiraya**

Though this thread is a few months old, it seems like a really useful collection of sources. I have read some more books since I last visited this thread and, hoping that the moderators will not be too wroth, I figured I'd add some more data. (Restarting the thread seems unnecessary).

Night Lords Omnibus, Blood Reaver, page 459:

Uzas charged, devoid of grace, fighting without finesse. He swung the axe wide, arcing down with heavy chops, while stabbing and carving with the gladius in the other hand. His thrashing would have been ludicrous had it not been performed by a warrior approaching three metres in height whose weapons tore the wraith apart.

Page 494:

True stealth had never been a viable option for the assault's first phase. The battle armour of a Legiones Astartes warrior hardly allowed for one to become a consummate, untraceable assassin, not while it growled as loud as loud as an idling engine, rendering him close to three metres in height, and bled a power signature detectable to even the crudest auspex readers.

The first quote describes Uzas, the second Talos; both Night Lords, neither described at any point as extraordinary in height by Astartes standards.

In addition, Horus Heresy - Massacre by Forge World describes Castellax-class battle automata as being the height of three men. Do we have pictures of Castellax next to Astartes, or descriptions? There's pictures in the books (in which the Castellax are about twice as tall as the Astartes, supporting both my first quote ITT and the above quotes) but they are of the models, and we know that model scale is wack.

**Co'tor Shas**

Close to 3m could pretty much be anything from 2.5-3m, so 8-10 feet. I go with the 8 feet, gigantic, but not quite into the stupid.

**Ashiraya**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Close to 3m could pretty much be anything from 2.5-3m, so 8-10 feet. I go with the 8 feet, gigantic, but not quite into the stupid.

Arguably 9-10 feet - If 2.5, it'd be as close to 2 as 3 metres, so 'close to 3' would make little sense.

9 is 2.78ish metres, which is close to 3 metres in this context, so it's viable. I continue to go with 9.

I mean, I have finished Void Stalker and I am over halfway through Blood Reaver, and thus far the almost-3m-Marines make just perfect sense. Hell, there's specialised boarding Ogryns around (boarding actions is a speciality of the Ogryn Charonite squads, from the FW books), and if you can fit those giants then you can probably fit a 9' Marine too.

**Co'tor Shas**

Meh, I guess. I tend to go for shorter marines because it makes hem easier to operate within human society. 9 feet is within the realm of getting t being to operate effectively, IMO, but still small enough to operate with no major downsides (unlike 11-12ft marines)