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 SRSFACE wrote:

jayko657 wrote:
Dante is still alive and kicking, so it might be a matter of choice.

If I recall correctly, the Grey Knights had a "retired" marine in a non-combat role back home until he's asked to pick up a sword again, which he does. Of course, the GK isn't exactly your generic chapter.

Dante is also a bit of an anomaly. Some book, he reveals himself without the mask on and he looked very much like a fresh recruit still, no signs of aging at all. One of the things with the Blood Angels gene seed is they tend to live dramatically longer than most other marines in terms of age. Part of the reason their armor is so much more ornate than other chapters stems from their longevity, so there's a bit of vanity (and just sheer combating boredom) that comes with their artificing. Mentions that in the newest codex.

So, the TL;DR of it all is basically no one really knows because we've never been explicitly told, and probably never will be.

No, no, no, no, NO!!! That has been copy and pasted in every BA codex since the days Space Marines were just ordinary badasses wearing Power Armour. That holds no ground in the face of Marines having lived for 2k years and 10k years that weren't Blood Angels, the only reason it's in the codex is that the Codex writers are too lazy to actually rewrite the fluff bits in the Codices.

Now, back on topic: an old Space Marine is usually around 200-400 years old - not because of old age, mind you, simply because most Astartes suffer from Missile-to-the-Face Syndrome on a centennial basis. Those who survive to be that old usually enter Veteran Squads, act as Captains, become Scout Sergeants, or are inducted into specialist units like the Sanguinary Guard. Those who become physically impaired in some incurable manner usually train the Initiates and Neophytes, and complain to their Battle-Brothers," I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took a missile to the knee,"


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 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
"Yet for all of his success, or perhaps because of it, Dante has grown weary of his burdens. He has lived far longer than he should, and the burden of centuries grows even weightier..."

Can be mentally, but can be physical as well. I actually favors both there

Wat

Do you even read, like at all? That's clearly not meant to be literal, it's referring to him growing mentally burdened by his job. There's nothing in that sentence to imply an actual literal definition either.

You are suddenly my boss or something and can dictate how I read words? And that seems to be your POV. I say nay, you cannot dictate how I think and feel.

It's not a matter of POV, it's simply a matter of background knowledge. It is a well-known fact that Space Marines don't die of old age. We have Space Marines surviving for 2k, 5k, and even 10k years. It is a sound theory that Space Marines are biologically immortal, and will only physically "slow down" due to battlefield injury


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 j31c3n wrote:

Animus wrote:

Warhammer 40,000, 7e Rulebook wrote:Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal

does not specify definition of immortal

perhaps it meant "literally unkillable"

There is immortal, and then there is biologically immortal. Immortal means cannot be killed period. Biologically immortal means cannot die of old age.


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There are certain jellyfish species that are biologically immortal

 dusara217 wrote:

No, no, no, no, NO!!! That has been copy and pasted in every BA codex since the days Space Marines were just ordinary badasses wearing Power Armour. That holds no ground in the face of Marines having lived for 2k years and 10k years that weren't Blood Angels, the only reason it's in the codex is that the Codex writers are too lazy to actually rewrite the fluff bits in the Codices.

No, I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible logic. If you believe the Astartes are immortal that's fine, it is a perfectly reasonable view to have based on the evidence we have. But the idea of ignoring evidence to the contrary just because you assume the authors were too lazy to remove it, that is crap.

40k is inconsistent as all hell, we all know that. So if there is conflicting fluff, just pick the one you prefer and go with it. I don't understand why everyone gets so defensive of their interpretations of the fluff.

 Orblivion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

No, no, no, no, NO!!! That has been copy and pasted in every BA codex since the days Space Marines were just ordinary badasses wearing Power Armour. That holds no ground in the face of Marines having lived for 2k years and 10k years that weren't Blood Angels, the only reason it's in the codex is that the Codex writers are too lazy to actually rewrite the fluff bits in the Codices.

No, I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible logic. If you believe the Astartes are immortal that's fine, it is a perfectly reasonable view to have based on the evidence we have. But the idea of ignoring evidence to the contrary just because you assume the authors were too lazy to remove it, that is crap.

40k is inconsistent as all hell, we all know that. So if there is conflicting fluff, just pick the one you prefer and go with it. I don't understand why everyone gets so defensive of their interpretations of the fluff.

Give me one example of a Space Marine dying of old age and I will refine my belief

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

No, no, no, no, NO!!! That has been copy and pasted in every BA codex since the days Space Marines were just ordinary badasses wearing Power Armour. That holds no ground in the face of Marines having lived for 2k years and 10k years that weren't Blood Angels, the only reason it's in the codex is that the Codex writers are too lazy to actually rewrite the fluff bits in the Codices.

No, I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible logic. If you believe the Astartes are immortal that's fine, it is a perfectly reasonable view to have based on the evidence we have. But the idea of ignoring evidence to the contrary just because you assume the authors were too lazy to remove it, that is crap.

40k is inconsistent as all hell, we all know that. So if there is conflicting fluff, just pick the one you prefer and go with it. I don't understand why everyone gets so defensive of their interpretations of the fluff.

Give me one example of a Space Marine dying of old age and I will refine my belief

I don't want you to refine your belief, it's perfectly valid to think they are immortal. I just don't understand why you act as if you've been slighted when someone refers to an official source that is contrary to your belief. Recognize that 40k is full of contradictions and move on, don't enforce your view on the contradicting fluff as if it is the only possible explanation.

There a dozen possible explanations, mine is the most logical one. For one such as the Emperor, it would be a VERY simple manner of gene splicing to make his Astartes biologically immortal.


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And I apologize for the way I can across, just a little annoyed that I'm still seeing that quote coming up after seeing so many threads on this and other sites discounting it as contradictictory and unreliable

 dusara217 wrote:
There a dozen possible explanations, mine is the most logical one. For one such as the Emperor, it would be a VERY simple manner of gene splicing to make his Astartes biologically immortal.


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And I apologize for the way I can across, just a little annoyed that I'm still seeing that quote coming up after seeing so many threads on this and other sites discounting it as contradictictory and unreliable

Contradictory and unreliable? That's entirely what 40k's fluff is, when it's written by how many authors

They read lectures to the younglings about how useless tacticals and termies are and that you're better off as a biker or centurion devastator.

 j31c3n wrote:
almost all space marines are bald and/or have old man hair, that means nothing

the emperor likely planned to exterminate the marines once they were no longer useful, just like the thunder warriors

They're bald either because they shave it off or it falls out due to damage to the scalp. The grey hair would suggest that they age, that their body is affected by the passage of time which would mean that they're not immortal as eventually even they'll break down.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Yet for all of his success, or perhaps because of it, Dante has grown weary of his burdens. He has lived far longer than he should, and the burden of centuries grows even weightier...

 Wyzilla wrote:
*Snip*

That's a quote from Lexicanum. Where is that said in the fluff?

Though, I very much doubt that's a metaphor.

It's referenced 5th edition BA Codex, someone please check that quote.

Page 53. Already mentioned as I tend to take the whole passage in for better or worse, but too many people are into just stripping the lines to the bare minimum and make a rather fanatic argument from there which instantly make me believe they are hiding something, and with people I don't trust I want the whole back-story and me reading it before I have checked it out or someone I know that is at least competent when it comes to fluff . In general I'm against people telling people how to think, but then again there were people here that even thought it would be a bright idea to build anything under Perturbo

Is that the exact quote? That wouldn't be very good of Lexicanum in that case. It could be they mean he's survived way longer than he should, rather than he's just exceeded the normal SM lifespan, or that the author done goofed. I mean, Fabulous, Kharn, Abaddon etc. are all 10,000 years (give or take), and yes, I know the time flows slower/faster in the Warp, but they still spend large amounts of time outside the Warp.

Abbaddon & Co have Chaos giving them life. Actually I have read the Red Angels and Space Wolves are amongst the longest lived individual Space Marines thanks to their weaknesses. But thats a long time ago and I'm far more unsure of that source. I have taken it to mean Dante have lived far longer than he normally would and knows it.

And yeah the author is as bad as they come. Matt Ward. So proceed with utmost care.

 dusara217 wrote:

Give me one example of a Space Marine dying of old age and I will refine my belief

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary.

How old was he? Who wrote it? What were the specifics?

If it was written by C.S. Goto you can just get out.

 j31c3n wrote:
How old was he? Who wrote it? What were the specifics?

Unknown, doesn't really matter as it's proof they can die of old age.
Rob Sanders.
Met the Hrud who can age things.

Animus wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
How old was he? Who wrote it? What were the specifics?

Unknown, doesn't really matter as it's proof they can die of old age.
Rob Sanders.
Met the Hrud who can age things.

Barabas Dantioch was the other SM that got "aged" by the Hrud. The rest just went Thousand Son without hermetically sealed power armour.

Hrud have crazy magic powers though, that's extremely atypical.

 j31c3n wrote:
Hrud have crazy magic powers though, that's extremely atypical.

Still dead by old age. Dante got hit with magic aging powers too. Didn't work on him, but we already know that the Blood Angels live longer, don't we?

In trial by blood, it mentions a chaplain of the Flesh Tearers who refused to die after having his legs ripped off, and they fixed him up to the command throne of a ship to await a pair of new legs and fly back to their home world, but they get side-tracked, and now he is permanently fixed there because it became too late, and now the ship is his until the top half of him dies.

Animus wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Hrud have crazy magic powers though, that's extremely atypical.

Still dead by old age. Dante got hit with magic aging powers too. Didn't work on him, but we already know that the Blood Angels live longer, don't we?

Let me explain the concept of aging to you. Aging occurs as the deoxyribonucleic acid reproduction process slowly breaks down as each cell reproduces. As each copy of DNA is produced, it is slightly worse than the previous (much like Geneseed degrades after a few millenia). This process of worsening DNA creates weaker cells, weaker tissues, and a weaker body - this process has been dubbed "aging". All that the Hruud does is cause the DNA reproduction process to degrade a 1000 times faster, making people age far quicker. For a Space Marine, this would CAUSE the Space Marine to begin to age after a small exposure, but large exposure would still cause rapid aging and death.

If you want, I could also explain the concept of biological immortality, which we have 2 different routes to achieve, 1 of which is a completely viable means to be used in genetically engineered super warriors.

 dusara217 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Hrud have crazy magic powers though, that's extremely atypical.

Still dead by old age. Dante got hit with magic aging powers too. Didn't work on him, but we already know that the Blood Angels live longer, don't we?

Let me explain the concept of aging to you. Aging occurs as the deoxyribonucleic acid reproduction process slowly breaks down as each cell reproduces. As each copy of DNA is produced, it is slightly worse than the previous (much like Geneseed degrades after a few millenia). This process of worsening DNA creates weaker cells, weaker tissues, and a weaker body - this process has been dubbed "aging". All that the Hruud does is cause the DNA reproduction process to degrade a 1000 times faster, making people age far quicker. For a Space Marine, this would CAUSE the Space Marine to begin to age after a small exposure, but large exposure would still cause rapid aging and death.

If you want, I could also explain the concept of biological immortality, which we have 2 different routes to achieve, 1 of which is a completely viable means to be used in genetically engineered super warriors.

The whole teleomere theory is just a small piece of the jigsaw puzzle, which I presume is what you're hinting at. There are many more factors involved. We aren't sure what causes aging as a biological phenomenon.

Well first we have to understand that the muscles, skeletal tissue, and sub dermal organs of marines don't seem to age. Only the skin seems to age. Age for them is literally skin deep.
It could come to a point where a 3k year old marine is able to perform his duties better than 500 year old marine, and have no skin at all.
Normally marines die in battle after a couple hundred years though.

You have to wonder about mental degradation though.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You have to wonder about mental degradation though.

Well yeah.
The whole reason things like Alzheimer's or Dementia happen is because the brain can only store so much.
If they could find some way to erase and store memories this wouldn't be a problem.

Animus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Give me one example of a Space Marine dying of old age and I will refine my belief

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary.

That was because a Hrud, who can kill and blow up planets by aging them to death.


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 ChazSexington wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Hrud have crazy magic powers though, that's extremely atypical.

Still dead by old age. Dante got hit with magic aging powers too. Didn't work on him, but we already know that the Blood Angels live longer, don't we?

Let me explain the concept of aging to you. Aging occurs as the deoxyribonucleic acid reproduction process slowly breaks down as each cell reproduces. As each copy of DNA is produced, it is slightly worse than the previous (much like Geneseed degrades after a few millenia). This process of worsening DNA creates weaker cells, weaker tissues, and a weaker body - this process has been dubbed "aging". All that the Hruud does is cause the DNA reproduction process to degrade a 1000 times faster, making people age far quicker. For a Space Marine, this would CAUSE the Space Marine to begin to age after a small exposure, but large exposure would still cause rapid aging and death.

If you want, I could also explain the concept of biological immortality, which we have 2 different routes to achieve, 1 of which is a completely viable means to be used in genetically engineered super warriors.

The whole teleomere theory is just a small piece of the jigsaw puzzle, which I presume is what you're hinting at. There are many more factors involved. We aren't sure what causes aging as a biological phenomenon.

Well Lobsters seem to be doing perfectly fine so long as nothing kills them. Plus there's the immortal jellyfish that can literally reverse its age at will.

 dusara217 wrote:
All that the Hruud does is cause the DNA reproduction process to degrade a 1000 times faster, making people age far quicker.

I think that's open to debate, they'd starve to death or maybe even combust if they were having to regenerate their cells that rapidly.

 dusara217 wrote:
If you want, I could also explain the concept of biological immortality, which we have 2 different routes to achieve, 1 of which is a completely viable means to be used in genetically engineered super warriors.

Even if it is actually viable, that doesn't mean it's implemented.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Give me one example of a Space Marine dying of old age and I will refine my belief

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary.

That was because a Hrud, who can kill and blow up planets by aging them to death.

Yes, they can also age people.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Well first we have to understand that the muscles, skeletal tissue, and sub dermal organs of marines don't seem to age.

There is evidence of space marine's muscles and bones aging. The space wolves had a rune priest who had aged to the point where his old bones and stiff joints made standing up and walking difficult for him. Please take note that this is before the starting point of Horus Heresy, so the rune priest couldn’t have been much older than 200 years and yet the guy already suffered from the effects of old age.

Animus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
All that the Hruud does is cause the DNA reproduction process to degrade a 1000 times faster, making people age far quicker.

I think that's open to debate, they'd starve to death or maybe even combust if they were having to regenerate their cells that rapidly.

 dusara217 wrote:
If you want, I could also explain the concept of biological immortality, which we have 2 different routes to achieve, 1 of which is a completely viable means to be used in genetically engineered super warriors.

Even if it is actually viable, that doesn't mean it's implemented.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Give me one example of a Space Marine dying of old age and I will refine my belief

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary.

That was because a Hrud, who can kill and blow up planets by aging them to death.

Yes, they can also age people.

And we don't know what the Cause of Death for the Astartes was, epsecially considering we know Astartes can live well past five thousand years, and Hrud can destroy ATOMS.

 Wyzilla wrote:

And we don't know what the Cause of Death for the Astartes was

It's printed in black and white, old age.

If he was hyperaged in an extremely short time, that alone could kill. The shock, or compressed atrophy or whatever.

I've never heard of a Guardsman dying of old age either, so I guess they're immortal too. Is there actually ANYONE in 40K fluff or novels who dies of old age?

Bolter porn just sells better than Retirement Home III - Vengeance of the Venerable Wolf Scout.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You have to wonder about mental degradation though.

Well yeah.
The whole reason things like Alzheimer's or Dementia happen is because the brain can only store so much.
If they could find some way to erase and store memories this wouldn't be a problem.

That's not what causes it. It's likely it's protein aggregates form partially due to genetic reasons and partially environmental reasons, causing the cell to pump water into the cell in an attempt to dissolve the proteins. This fails, and the cell explodes.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Well Lobsters seem to be doing perfectly fine so long as nothing kills them. Plus there's the immortal jellyfish that can literally reverse its age at will.

Sadly the lobster story is just a myth - http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dont-listen-to-the-buzz-lobsters-arent-actually-immortal-88450872/?no-ist

And telomerase isn't part of the jellyfish thing, that's more about being able to revert to a younger stage in response to nutrient depletion.

However, telomerase is part of the hydra story.

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

And we don't know what the Cause of Death for the Astartes was

It's printed in black and white, old age.

Which doesn't tell us anything. There are a lot of ways to die from old age, especially when an Alien that controls entropy that can destroy your very atoms and reduce them to hydrogen was responsible for your death. His molecules may have flown apart and destabilized. His neurons could have fallen apart faster then they could normally replicate. His very DNA may have been torn asunder by aging so rapidly it may have even experience multiple half lives. His muscles may have atrophied into dust as his body tried to keep him alive with no food, and thus cannibalized itself. Indeed, under the circumstances of rapid progression of time without any nutrition, he probably only had to age a couple months, possibly years, for his body to devour itself and fell apart like a Holocaust victim.


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 ChazSexington wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You have to wonder about mental degradation though.

Well yeah.
The whole reason things like Alzheimer's or Dementia happen is because the brain can only store so much.
If they could find some way to erase and store memories this wouldn't be a problem.

That's not what causes it. It's likely it's protein aggregates form partially due to genetic reasons and partially environmental reasons, causing the cell to pump water into the cell in an attempt to dissolve the proteins. This fails, and the cell explodes.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Well Lobsters seem to be doing perfectly fine so long as nothing kills them. Plus there's the immortal jellyfish that can literally reverse its age at will.

Sadly the lobster story is just a myth - http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dont-listen-to-the-buzz-lobsters-arent-actually-immortal-88450872/?no-ist

And telomerase isn't part of the jellyfish thing, that's more about being able to revert to a younger stage in response to nutrient depletion.

However, telomerase is part of the hydra story.

I've read that, but there was no source to actually really debunk it. Lobsters remain extremely healthy throughout their lives.... and I can't remember a wild one actually being observed to die by natural circumstances. Although, they could also live so long (see tortoises) that we are not even capable of witnessing their full lifespan. After all, there was that one Galapagos Toroise that outlived Darwin.