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Bojazz wrote:
They have a melee weapon, which means they don't get a default CCW. The problem arises when they are apparently disallowed from using the melee weapon if they've used it as a shooting weapon. This leaves them with no melee weapon and no CCW.

But they don't have a melee weapon, since on that turn you use the ranged profile which means you ignore the melee profile.

Drakmord wrote:
If their intent was for Praetorians wielding Rods to be unable to shoot and assault with that weapon, why bother giving its shooting profile the Assault special rule?

What other type would their weapon have?

This allows a single Praetorian to pick:
a) Shoot 1 S5AP2 and attack with 3 S5AP- attacks.
b) Attack with 3 S5AP2 attacks
Against WS4, T4, Sv4+ that would give you:
a) 0.94 unsaved wounds
b) 1 unsaved wound

That gives you two scenario's where shooting is good: After a Deep Strike (since you cannot assault) and against Sv5+ or worse.
And we should even factor in invulnerable saved, because AP2 won't help you against units that always have to take an inv-save; the additional attack might be more damage.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
What a bizarre situation. Never saw anyone playing as if you couldn't use them in melee after shooting.

Apparently almost no one was aware of this rule.

I hardly believe people would force others to strictly follow it. I know in warhammer most rules don't make sense, but not letting a model to attack in melee (when it clearly has a weapon) because its weapon shot before the Assault phase... lel.

Even tournies missed that!

The way I see it (and HIWPI) is if the shooting profile is chosen, then that is the weapons profile for the turn.
It has no access to the melee profile, so can't be considered to have a melee weapon (hence would count as gaining a CCW for that turn).

Except that pistols don't have a special rule that says they can still be used in CC if they use their shooting profile. They just have a CC profile and a shooting profile.

If you shoot your pistol, by these rules, you can't use it to gain an extra attack in CC. Now assault marines are even more broken!

Pistols have their own rules for this.
See: "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons"

I don't think there is an actual requirement to have a melee weapon to fight in assault.

otherwise slews of models would not be able to fight like necron warriors, immortals, any beast pack, scarabs, wraiths, c'tan, most MCs, many daemons, etc.

nothing in the assault section actually requires you to use a weapon to fight in assault.




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 grendel083 wrote:
The way I see it (and HIWPI) is if the shooting profile is chosen, then that is the weapons profile for the turn.
It has no access to the melee profile, so can't be considered to have a melee weapon (hence would count as gaining a CCW for that turn).

From the posted quote that is the rules as written.

if it said either or

or

phase instead of turn.

the other thing that needs to be mentioned:

Whenever a rule refers to ‘a turn’ it always means ‘player turn’ unless it specifically refers to a ‘game turn’.

- from 'The turn' in BRB

therefore the rule quoted by the OP

Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.

Would refer to play turn.

So you could choose which line of the profile to use each turn (player turn)

so you could shoot and fight in assault that player turn with models profile, if there is no other melee weapon, and then on your opponents turn would get the benefit for the melee profile.

 grendel083 wrote:
Pistols have their own rules for this.
See: "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons"

It just says it uses the profile of a cc weapon in assault. Which means it has two profiles. Sounds like this ridiculous revelation applies.

I'm of the opinion that this is probably not RAI for either case, just badly written rules.


I feel like the sentence that says "choose which to use each turn," should have been right after the sentence about different power settings and ammo, rather than where it is and is badly written/edited.

It is also possible this is just fail rules writing by GW. I'm assuming what they meant is some weapons, like weapons will multiple types of ammo, which are referenced in the same paragraph, have multiple profiles, and you have to choose which one to shoot when shooting. Or Logan Grimnar's (sp?) CC weapon, which can either be used as one of two profiles in the same phase. You have to pick which one to use. I think we're all taking this one specific line out of context. Otherwise, why would Burna Boys reference that they cant do both?

 krodarklorr wrote:
I think we're all taking this one specific line out of context. Otherwise, why would Burna Boys reference that they cant do both?

Because they failed to take what was now a redundant clause out of the rules when they updated the codex.

 Ghaz wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I think we're all taking this one specific line out of context. Otherwise, why would Burna Boys reference that they cant do both?

Because they failed to take what was now a redundant clause out of the rules when they updated the codex.

Indeed. It's pretty much a straight copy/paste from the 4th Ed Codex.

Kangodo wrote:
From the BRB:

Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.

Rod of Covenant has two profiles, a melee and a ranged one.
Am I correct in assuming that a Triarch Praetorian can either fire or assault with the Rod, but not both in a single turn?

Asking this because I've read some discussions where people assumed they could fire and then assault with the Rod.
But that is not allowed, or is it?

Would you mind posting page and paragraph of the BRB?
Would to see if there is something prior or after your quote that may explain in more detail.

He posted the entire paragraph, from under 'Type' in the 'Weapons' section of the rulebook. The preceding paragraph covers allowing a unit to decide which weapons they fire and those that do fire do so at full effect. The next paragraph covers weapons which have a randomly determined amount of shots. So no, there is no more explanation to be found in the rulebook.

 Ghaz wrote:
He posted the entire paragraph, from under 'Type' in the 'Weapons' section of the rulebook. The preceding paragraph covers allowing a unit to decide which weapons they fire and those that do fire do so at full effect. The next paragraph covers weapons which have a randomly determined amount of shots. So no, there is no more explanation to be found in the rulebook.

Thanks.

Funny how there are so many little rules that get over looked.

Question: Does/will anyone actually play this way? I know I probably wont.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Question: Does/will anyone actually play this way? I know I probably wont.

Absolutly yes!
This is the rule for duel-profile weapons. Orks have to deal with it, so do Shining Spears (when they remember), it's not a new rule, it was in the last edition.

It's not something I would enforce on pistols however, but on a Rod of Covenant yes 100%

Huh, that's a insanely interesting rule that I don't think anyone was really aware of..

Pistols don't apply as your not actually using it as a CC weapon, like it has no CC weapon profile. It just "counts as" having a CC weapon.

There is another rule I think needs to be remembered by those that would like to say they can use it as both in the same turn. By saying both profiles are working at the same time you are making it impossible to fire it as a shooting weapon as weapons with the melee type can only be used in CC per pg 40. The only reason you can ever fire the Rod is due to using only a single profile in a turn as the other is not in use therefor not applicable.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Pistols have their own rules for this.
See: "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons"

It just says it uses the profile of a cc weapon in assault. Which means it has two profiles. Sounds like this ridiculous revelation applies.

I'm of the opinion that this is probably not RAI for either case, just badly written rules.


I feel like the sentence that says "choose which to use each turn," should have been right after the sentence about different power settings and ammo, rather than where it is and is badly written/edited.

That's not accurate as you have no profile to pick and it doesn't actually have a Profile, I can't say I'm using my infernus pistol as a CC weapon and get the ST8.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Question: Does/will anyone actually play this way? I know I probably wont.

I will, an AP2-shot with three AP2-attacks is probably way over the top for a 28-point model with Jump-type.
The rule is there for a reason, you cannot ignore it because it doesn't suit you.

There are a dozen easier ways to write it down if they wanted us to use the weapon in both phases.
The Rod also works with a force field, which fluff-wise could mean it would need to recharge after you fire it.

Bojazz wrote:

 Crevab wrote:
What, did 7th remove the clause that said "if you don't have a CCW, you count as having a CCW"?

They have a melee weapon, which means they don't get a default CCW. The problem arises when they are apparently disallowed from using the melee weapon if they've used it as a shooting weapon. This leaves them with no melee weapon and no CCW.

Every model is treated as having a CCW.


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Hollismason wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Pistols have their own rules for this.
See: "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons"

It just says it uses the profile of a cc weapon in assault. Which means it has two profiles. Sounds like this ridiculous revelation applies.

I'm of the opinion that this is probably not RAI for either case, just badly written rules.


I feel like the sentence that says "choose which to use each turn," should have been right after the sentence about different power settings and ammo, rather than where it is and is badly written/edited.

That's not accurate as you have no profile to pick and it doesn't actually have a Profile, I can't say I'm using my infernus pistol as a CC weapon and get the ST8.

Sure, you can't use the profile for a ranged weapon as your CCW, but you can use the profile for your CCW to bash their skulls in.

 Whacked wrote:

Bojazz wrote:

 Crevab wrote:
What, did 7th remove the clause that said "if you don't have a CCW, you count as having a CCW"?

They have a melee weapon, which means they don't get a default CCW. The problem arises when they are apparently disallowed from using the melee weapon if they've used it as a shooting weapon. This leaves them with no melee weapon and no CCW.

Every model is treated as having a CCW.

 Nilok wrote:

No Specified Melee weapon wrote:If a model is not specifically stated as have a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

Rod of the Covenant wrote:Melee, Two-Handed

Triarch Praetorians are already armed with a Melee weapon and don't get a CCW.

The rules don't cover what happens if you try and fight in close combat without a melee weapon, thus the rules break.

Underlined for you convenience.

But you are incorrect, you need to pick a profile.
If you picked the ranged-profile they don't have a 'Melee weapon' which would give them a CCW and that would allow them to hit in CC.

Kangodo wrote:
But you are incorrect, you need to pick a profile.
If you picked the ranged-profile they don't have a 'Melee weapon' which would give them a CCW and that would allow them to hit in CC.

They still have a melee weapon, they are just not allowed to use it, though I would like to know if GW even know this rule exists.

Can you show me what melee weapon they have?
I only see a Rod of Covenant that has 12", S5 and AP2 with Assault 1.

As a Necron player, I'm a little disappointed to see that the rod is a variable weapon per turn, but the arguments in this thread are solid; I will be playing them as being able to either shoot or melee with the weapon, not both.

As for the argument about "it doesn't actually have a melee weapon," give it a rest. The rod is the melee weapon, but cannot use its special melee profile. As such, it's just a standard CCW.

Kangodo wrote:
Can you show me what melee weapon they have?
I only see a Rod of Covenant that has 12", S5 and AP2 with Assault 1.

You will find it under Rod of Covenant under Armoury of the Ancients.

Rod of Covenant wrote:Range:- S:User AP:2 Type: Melee, Two-handed

 Shadelkan wrote:
As a Necron player, I'm a little disappointed to see that the rod is a variable weapon per turn, but the arguments in this thread are solid; I will be playing them as being able to either shoot or melee with the weapon, not both.

As for the argument about "it doesn't actually have a melee weapon," give it a rest. The rod is the melee weapon, but cannot use its special melee profile. As such, it's just a standard CCW.

The problem is there ends up being a complete rules breakdown, which makes me wonder if they even knew if this rule existed.
Since they already have a melee weapon, they cannot have a CCW. Since they cannot have a CCW and can't use their melee weapon, we have no idea what happens when they are in close combat the turn they shoot.

This really needs to be touched on with an FAQ.

 Nilok wrote:
You will find it under Rod of Covenant under Armoury of the Ancients.

Rod of Covenant wrote:Range:- S:User AP:2 Type: Melee, Two-handed

Confused.
If you chose the ranged profile, how are you still using the melee-profile to claim it has a CCW weapon?

Since you don't use the melee-profile, they don't have a melee weapon.
Models without a melee weapon get a CCW so they can hit in CC at Strength User and AP -

The problem is there ends up being a complete rules breakdown, which makes me wonder if they even knew if this rule existed.
Since they already have a melee weapon, they cannot have a CCW. Since they cannot have a CCW and can't use their melee weapon, we have no idea what happens when they are in close combat the turn they shoot.

This really needs to be touched on with an FAQ.

It's not that they cannot use their melee profile, they simply do not have the melee profile.
No melee profile = no melee weapon = 'free' CCW so they can still attack.

This doesn't really need a FAQ, it's quite clear.

Kangodo wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
You will find it under Rod of Covenant under Armoury of the Ancients.

Rod of Covenant wrote:Range:- S:User AP:2 Type: Melee, Two-handed

Confused.
If you chose the ranged profile, how are you still using the melee-profile to claim it has a CCW weapon?

Since you don't use the melee-profile, they don't have a melee weapon.
Models without a melee weapon get a CCW so they can hit in CC at Strength User and AP -

The problem is there ends up being a complete rules breakdown, which makes me wonder if they even knew if this rule existed.
Since they already have a melee weapon, they cannot have a CCW. Since they cannot have a CCW and can't use their melee weapon, we have no idea what happens when they are in close combat the turn they shoot.

This really needs to be touched on with an FAQ.

It's not that they cannot use their melee profile, they simply do not have the melee profile.
No melee profile = no melee weapon = 'free' CCW so they can still attack.

This doesn't really need a FAQ, it's quite clear.

Simply because they can't use their Melee weapon, doesn't mean they don't have it. As long as they have a weapon with the Melee type in their wargear, they have a melee weapon.

No Specified Melee weapon wrote:If a model is not specifically stated as have a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

In order for your statement to be correct, you need to prove that they no longer have a Rod of Covenant, thus they no longer are specifically stated as having a Melee weapon and have a CCW.

So, let's assume you're right Nilok... Now what? They can't attack in CC?

It's not that they no longer have a rod, it's that for that turn the Rod does not have a melee profile.

You choose a profile. That is the weapons profile for the turn. That profile does not list melee. If you wish to use the other profile, in order to deny a rule, you're going to have to find a rule allowing 2 profiles in a turn.