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Mordaem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The rule does not say it "has a specific profile".

The rule says that if it's used in CC, use the profile above. Meaning it doesn't always have that profile - only when it's used in CC. Meaning all of your statements so far have no basis in fact and you have, as I said, made things up.

I'm sorry, I was unaware that there was a rule that allowed weapons to use profiles they don't have. My bad.

I'm glad you could learn about the Pistol rule then. The profile only exists when it's used in CC - it doesn't exist normally.
Therefore it doesn't fall into the same rule as the Rod.

 Ghaz wrote:
The rule that let's a Pistol use a profile it doesn't have is right there in the Pistol rules.

That is your interpretation. Mine is that a weapon cannot use a profile it doesn't have and that the rules for pistols in fact gives pistols a CC profile (thus a second profile). Until I see a rule that states specifically a pistol can be used as both in the same turn then I see no difference between it and the Rod of the Covenant in terms of using it as both a shooting and a CCW.

Mordaem wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The rule that let's a Pistol use a profile it doesn't have is right there in the Pistol rules.

That is your interpretation. Mine is that a weapon cannot use a profile it doesn't have and that the rules for pistols in fact gives pistols a CC profile (thus a second profile). Until I see a rule that states specifically a pistol can be used as both in the same turn then I see no difference between it and the Rod of the Covenant in terms of using it as both a shooting and a CCW.

Except for the fact that they're explicitly different?

I can point to the melee profile for the Rod. Please do so for the Bolt Pistol listed under the explanation of Pistol Weapons (above the Gunslinger rule).

Your "interpretation" requires making up rules.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:
which: asking for information specifying one or more people or things from a definite set.

Tenant #6...

"6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out."

While interesting, your definition has no bearing on this rules debate.

People were incorrectly basing their argument around "which" meaning a choice between one of two. Thus, the posters were using the word incorrectly on a fundamental level. BTW, the meaning of "which" in this context is the same in England and the USA so you do not need to choose which one. See what I did there?

BRB pg 41 "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above
– the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol’s shooting profile are ignored."

BRB pg 42 "A Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in
the Assault phase."

Appears that a pistol never has the profile and only counts as a ccw in the assault phase where the shooting profile is ignored.

Mordaem wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The rule that let's a Pistol use a profile it doesn't have is right there in the Pistol rules.

That is your interpretation. Mine is that a weapon cannot use a profile it doesn't have and that the rules for pistols in fact gives pistols a CC profile (thus a second profile). Until I see a rule that states specifically a pistol can be used as both in the same turn then I see no difference between it and the Rod of the Covenant in terms of using it as both a shooting and a CCW.

No. That's what the rule actually says. When they say that "... a Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase..." it means exactly that. It counts as a close combat weapon exactly when they say it does, and that is only in the Assault phase. Again, you have no support for a Pistol gaining a second profile.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. That's what the rule actually says. When they say that "... a Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase..." it means exactly that. It counts as a close combat weapon exactly when they say it does, and that is only in the Assault phase. Again, you have no support for a Pistol gaining a second profile.

If a pistol is a ranged weapon one second and a CCW the next then why can't a Rod of Covenant? The argument is that because Pistols only have a ranged profile the rule that prevents a Pistol from being used in both doesn't count. However, the BRB states that it does have a CC profile as per the Pistols as Close Combat Weapons rule and the rules for CCW.

The rules for CCW states that Many weapons don't confer any Strength bonus, AP values or Special Rules. These weapons are simply referred to as Close Combat Weapons in the models wargear and have the following profile. The rules for pistols states it can be used as a CCW, ergo it gains the CCW profile.

It doesn't gain a profile when it pleases you. It either has it or it doesn't. In this case it does, so its subject to the same rules as Rod of the Covenant

Mordaem wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No. That's what the rule actually says. When they say that "... a Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase..." it means exactly that. It counts as a close combat weapon exactly when they say it does, and that is only in the Assault phase. Again, you have no support for a Pistol gaining a second profile.

If a pistol is a ranged weapon one second and a CCW the next then why can't a Rod of Covenant? The argument is that because Pistols only have a ranged profile the rule that prevents a Pistol from being used in both doesn't count. However, the BRB states that it does have a CC profile as per the Pistols as Close Combat Weapons rule and the rules for CCW.

Pistols do not have a CC profile. You're not reading the rules correctly.
It's only a CCW in one specific instance - insisting that it has a CC profile at any other time is simply incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:
Pistols do not have a CC profile. You're not reading the rules correctly.
It's only a CCW in one specific instance - insisting that it has a CC profile at any other time is simply incorrect.

First of all, simply stating you're right and I'm wrong because I'm wrong is a terrible way to debate anything.

Secondly, a pistol can be used as a CCW with the CCW profile. This doesn't mean in only gains that profile in CC, this means it has the CCW profile so it does indeed have 2 profiles.

By your logic I could argue that the Rod of the Covenant is only a shooting weapon only gains its CC profile in CC.

Mordaem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Pistols do not have a CC profile. You're not reading the rules correctly.
It's only a CCW in one specific instance - insisting that it has a CC profile at any other time is simply incorrect.

First of all, simply stating you're right and I'm wrong because I'm wrong is a terrible way to debate anything.

Correct. It's a good thing rules quotes have been provided proving your statements incorrect.

Secondly, a pistol can be used as a CCW with the CCW profile. This doesn't mean in only gains that profile in CC, this means it has the CCW profile so it does indeed have 2 profiles.

According to the actual rules, the underlined is actually correct.

A Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase.

This means that if you're in the Shooting phase, the pistol is not a CCW. Therefore it does not have a CCW profile in the Shooting phase.

By your logic I could argue that the Rod of the Covenant is only a shooting weapon only gains its CC profile in CC.

No you couldn't - that one actually and demonstrably has two profiles. Pistols only have one.
The Rod has a CCW profile in the Shooting phase.

I'm surprised you still can't tell the difference, despite even quoting the relevant rules.

Mordaem wrote:
Secondly, a pistol can be used as a CCW with the CCW profile. This doesn't mean in only gains that profile in CC, this means it has the CCW profile so it does indeed have 2 profiles.

False. It only gains it's close combat profile when it counts as a close combat weapon. When does a pistol count as a close combat weapon? Per the rulebook "... a Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase..." Where does it say that a pistol counts as a close combat weapon at any other time? You have nothing to support your claims.

Mordaem wrote:
By your logic I could argue that the Rod of the Covenant is only a shooting weapon only gains its CC profile in CC.

Also false. Pistols and the Rod of Covenant have different wordings and hence different rules. The printed profile for the Rod of Covenant have its close combat profile. Pistols do not.

rigeld2 wrote:
This means that if you're in the Shooting phase, the pistol is not a CCW. Therefore it does not have a CCW profile in the Shooting phase.

This is where we differ on our interpretation of the rules. I believe that it has the profile at all times based on the fact that the rules for Pistols in Close Combat says it "uses" the profile for CCW, not that it "gains" the profile. Just like it says you "Ignore" the shooting profile, not that its "removed"

I've read the rules over and over and I simply do not come to the same conclusion you do based on the wording of the rules.

Mordaem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
This means that if you're in the Shooting phase, the pistol is not a CCW. Therefore it does not have a CCW profile in the Shooting phase.

This is where we differ on our interpretation of the rules. I believe that it has the profile at all times based on the fact that the rules for Pistols in Close Combat says it "uses" the profile for CCW, not that it "gains" the profile. Just like it says you "Ignore" the shooting profile, not that its "removed"

I've read the rules over and over and I simply do not come to the same conclusion you do based on the wording of the rules.

So you just ignore this rule?

A Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase.

What permission do you have to count it as a close combat weapon at any other time? Surely you can give some rules support and you're not simply making things up, right?

Mordaem wrote:
I believe that it has the profile at all times

"A Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase."
So despite it literally saying it's in the Assault phase, you believe that it's all the time?

And despite it saying it counts as a CCW-weapon in the Assault phase you are still convinced it has two profiles all the time.
Even when it doesn't have two profiles anywhere.

Let's agree that nearly everyone disagrees with you so we can get back to the Rod of Covenant, which unlike a Pistol actually has two different profiles in the rulebooks?

Mordaem wrote:
This is where we differ on our interpretation of the rules. I believe that it has the profile at all times based on the fact that the rules for Pistols in Close Combat says it "uses" the profile for CCW, not that it "gains" the profile.

Now to me that distinction has a profoundly different meaning. The fact that it uses a profile does not mean it has that profile, As I read it a pistol only ever has the shooting profile and it counts as a CCW in the assault phase. If used as a CCW in the fight subphase then it uses the provided profile, but it never gains or has that profile itself. This means that a pistol is not ever subject to the two profiles rule.

Further more, your interpretation of the pistol rule renders that rule redundant. If the RAI was for the pistol to have multiple profiles, it would actually have multiple profiles in the book. There would be no need for the pistol rule to exist. This is a fairly big indication that your interpretation is flawed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the Rod. Its my opinion that you choose the profile the weapon has that turn. If you choose the shooting profile then it is not a CCW that turn. The fact the rulebook instructs you to choose a the start of the each turn makes it fairly clear both profiles are not available for use in the same turn. Even if they said start of the each phase you would run into issues with the rod being used to fire overwatch. If the intent was to allow double profile weapons like to use both profiles in the same turn there would be no instruction to choose.

edit: replaced 'at the start of' with 'each'

 DJGietzen wrote:
. The fact the rulebook instructs you to choose a the start of the turn makes it fairly clear both profiles are not available for use in the same turn. .

This statement is incorrect. The rule does not require you to choose anything at the start of the turn.

Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.

While not necessarily chosen at the start, one is chosen each turn.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Now to me that distinction has a profoundly different meaning. The fact that it uses a profile does not mean it has that profile, As I read it a pistol only ever has the shooting profile and it counts as a CCW in the assault phase. If used as a CCW in the fight subphase then it uses the provided profile, but it never gains or has that profile itself. This means that a pistol is not ever subject to the two profiles rule.

I still don't see how you can use a profile for a weapon if the weapon does not have that profile. To me that just doesn't make any sense and nothing you or anyone else has said has managed to answer that question. How does a weapon use a profile it doesn't have?

 DJGietzen wrote:
Further more, your interpretation of the pistol rule renders that rule redundant. If the RAI was for the pistol to have multiple profiles, it would actually have multiple profiles in the book. There would be no need for the pistol rule to exist. This is a fairly big indication that your interpretation is flawed.

It doesn't render it redundant, it still explains how a weapon with a shooting profile gains an extra attack in the assault phase for having two CCWs without having to write in the profile for a basic CCW on every weapon that has the pistol type. Every other weapon with a shooting and a melee profile has something in the melee weapon profile that is not in the CCW profile otherwise they could simply be written in as pistols as well. For Rod of the Covenant its AP2 and Two handed, for Howling Banshee Triskele its AP3, For Scorpions Claw its STR x2 and AP2.

 DJGietzen wrote:
As for the Rod. Its my opinion that you choose the profile the weapon has that turn. If you choose the shooting profile then it is not a CCW that turn. The fact the rulebook instructs you to choose a the start of the turn makes it fairly clear both profiles are not available for use in the same turn. Even if they said start of the phase you would run into issues with the rod being used to fire overwatch. If the intent was to allow double profile weapons like to use both profiles in the same turn there would be no instruction to choose.

But your forgetting the first sentence of that paragraph where it talks about weapons with different power settings and ammo types. In my opinion choosing which power setting/ammo type is what you have to choose each turn.

 DJGietzen wrote:

Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.

While not necessarily chosen at the start, one is chosen each turn.

It is very important because your trying to add a timing factor to the rule which it does not have. If it did say "start of turn" or "once each turn", your interpretation would be correct.

However, the rule simply states to choose which to use each turn. I choose to use shooting in the shooting phase and then melee in the assault phase. There is no either/or requirement. The line before the one you quotes says you can use it in both, with no limiter.

Mordaem wrote:
I still don't see how you can use a profile for a weapon if the weapon does not have that profile. To me that just doesn't make any sense and nothing you or anyone else has said has managed to answer that question. How does a weapon use a profile it doesn't have?

Normally I'd agree with you, except we have been given specific instruction to use a profile the weapon does not have. I'm not sure how it could be more clear. To me its no different then poison weapons always wounding on a fixed number, We've been told its a unique circumstance and how to handle it.

Mordaem wrote:

It doesn't render it redundant, it still explains how a weapon with a shooting profile gains an extra attack in the assault phase for having two CCWs without having to write in the profile for a basic CCW on every weapon that has the pistol type. Every other weapon with a shooting and a melee profile has something in the melee weapon profile that is not in the CCW profile otherwise they could simply be written in as pistols as well. For Rod of the Covenant its AP2 and Two handed, for Howling Banshee Triskele its AP3, For Scorpions Claw its STR x2 and AP2.

If they intended the pistol to have multiple profiles they would have either printed the second profile for each pistol or the pistol special rule would read something more along the lines of "These weapons have the following profile in addition to the one listed." Instead it explains how the weapon can be used outside the normal weapon rules.

Mordaem wrote:

But your forgetting the first sentence of that paragraph where it talks about weapons with different power settings and ammo types. In my opinion choosing which power setting/ammo type is what you have to choose each turn.

I'm not actually. They give a few different reasons why a weapon might have multiple profiles then 'when this is the case' (meaning anytime a weapon has more then one profile) it tells us to choose one per turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.

While not necessarily chosen at the start, one is chosen each turn.

It is very important because your trying to add a timing factor to the rule which it does not have. If it did say "start of turn" or "once each turn", your interpretation would be correct.

However, the rule simply states to choose which to use each turn. I choose to use shooting in the shooting phase and then melee in the assault phase. There is no either/or requirement. The line before the one you quotes says you can use it in both, with no limiter.

So you would allow a player with special ammo to choose hellfire founds in the shooting phase but then use vengeance rounds when firing overwatch?

Special ammo rule tells you exactly how long each ammo must be used for, which is until their next shooting phase. This rule has no such timing situation to it.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Normally I'd agree with you, except we have been given specific instruction to use a profile the weapon does not have. I'm not sure how it could be more clear. To me its no different then poison weapons always wounding on a fixed number, We've been told its a unique circumstance and how to handle it.

Once again our interpretations differ. For me the rule doesn't tell us to use a profile the weapon doesn't have, it tells us what profile it does have. Poison weapons are different because not all weapons that can use poison come with poison in the profile, hence the reason for a separate poison rule.

 DJGietzen wrote:
If they intended the pistol to have multiple profiles they would have either printed the second profile for each pistol or the pistol special rule would read something more along the lines of "These weapons have the following profile in addition to the one listed." Instead it explains how the weapon can be used outside the normal weapon rules.

Same as above. Your still assuming the rules for pistols tells you to use a profile without actually giving the weapon that profile and I just don't see it that way.

 DJGietzen wrote:
I'm not actually. They give a few different reasons why a weapon might have multiple profiles then 'when this is the case' (meaning anytime a weapon has more then one profile) it tells us to choose one per turn.

Except nowhere in the rule does it say to choose only one per turn, nor does it specify one per phase. If it did, this whole debate wouldn't exist.

An argument could also be made that the rule in question states that "some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting" but does not say "some weapons can be used in combat OR as shooting" therefore allowing weapons with both profiles to be used in shooting "as well as" in combat.

Are we talking about Rod of the Covenant or pistols here?

I think either one has been well and truly beaten into the ground by this point...