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Never played a TT wargame game that didnt use dice.... does the card system in place of it work well?

Very well. I currently play...Malifaux, Bolt Action, 40k, WM/H and infinity, and enjoy them all. So I'm no rabid fanboy of one in particular. But I really do love both the flips and the twists therein, as well as the control hand mechanic.

I didn't like it. I was already sick of the hit-wound-save special-rule immersion-breaking speed-bump rigmarole of WFB/40K, and this seemed like that, but more so. The idea of cards as an alternative random number generator to dice doesn't offend me, but this game drags the process out. I'd go so far as to describe Malifaux as a card game that makes occasional reference to miniatures. I'd rather it was the other way round.

I like it a lot. It is nice to have a random pool to draw from instead of random dice throws. It makes the game more even. I really like to have a control hand and the possibility to affect the random draws. But as the previous poster said, it is more time consuming than dice and take some focus away from the movement of the models. But it works well for the kind of skirmish game Malifaux is.

Its certainly different and I quite like it as a change - the whole mutiple flips (extra dice) and re-refllips rerolls is fun and not much slower than dice once you are used to it, the "cheat" mechanic is also interesting and adds an extra dimension.

I like it for two reasons: it adds an element of resource management, and also gives a nice degree of control over the game.

In terms of resource management, it works because once you've used a card, it can't be used again that turn. So the more flips that take place, the more you can have an idea of what's coming; if you've had apalling luck in your first few flips of a turn, bringing up lots of low numbers, you later flips are statistically more likely to be higher. Whereas in 40k there's nothing to stop you rolling infinite 1s, in Malifaux you can never have more than 4 in a turn, and each one reduces the chance of your next card being as bad.

Similarly, having a 'hand' of cards that you can use to 'cheat' in each turn (basically swapping out a drawn card for one in your hand) is very engaging; do you cut your losses after a bad flip and let it go, or do you cheat in that Red Joker (the best card in the game) from your hand to be absolutely sure you succeed, but risk missing out on that later? It prompts a lot of tactical decisions beyond just throwing dice.

It's different, and I can't say it's better or worse than d6, multi-d8 or d20 (or whatever else you play with) systems, but it certainly works in a unique way. All I can say is try it, only then will you know if it's for you or not.

Wasn't a fan. It felt like a gimmick and didn't add the level of control (relative to a dice based system) that I was expecting.

This was 1st edition, so things may have changed.

It's really not a gimmick. Things are integrated into the card-flip mechanic rather well.

Essentially, you're rolling a d13, but your hand has a set of "saved" rolls that you may substitute at any time. It allows you to resourcefully get the values you want at clutch moments. Your hand also refills quite often, so it's never a resource you don't want to use.

Additionally, the suit of the cards matters. You get headshots for additional damage on certain suits, your spells have greater effects on some suits, etc. With the ability to play cards from your hand, this mechanic fits in rather well and can never be replicated by just using dice.

Finally, the cards in hand can just be used as a discarding resource. Some effects allow you to achieve some sort of effect simply by discarding any card. It's a good way to feel undesirable cards that you otherwise wouldn't be playing.

It may feel like a gimmick at first, but the game's integration with the card-flip mechanic eventually makes you realize that you can do stuff that you otherwise could never do in dice-rolling games.

The issue is that you can count cards. And it's very hard to play the game in comparison to others which involve modifying stats to change the probability of an outcome. I think the rules designed around this game help, but gaining plus or minus flips doesn't have the same impact as additional or negative dice in either Infinity or Warmachine.

Still a good game, it just feels like Masters/Crews that focus less on flips (or cycling flips quickly, like a card game) are more powerful. But the same could be said about control casters in Warmachine.

Another way of saying it, in Warmachine, needing a "7" to hit is considered hard as this is a 50/50 shot. The probability of a scenario in Malifaux is much harder to predict making choices based on direct conflict more difficult. Hence the hand mechanic, or cheating, becomes so important. Most players I know pocket the Black Joker permanently, if drawn, just because it's so potent of a game breaker. The swings in Malifaux are much more back breaking than other miniatures games.

 TheKbob wrote:
Another way of saying it, in Warmachine, needing a "7" to hit is considered hard as this is a 50/50 shot. The probability of a scenario in Malifaux is much harder to predict making choices based on direct conflict more difficult. Hence the hand mechanic, or cheating, becomes so important. Most players I know pocket the Black Joker permanently, if drawn, just because it's so potent of a game breaker. The swings in Malifaux are much more back breaking than other miniatures games.

Warmahordes rolls a 2d6, correct? The probability of getting a 7 or higher is more around 58%. The 2d6 alone is a bell curve where most rolls will tend closer towards 'average'. The game's strength lies in higher or lower stats being that much more stronger.

In addition to counting cards for numerical value, you can also count suits. If your hand drawn has a lot of one suit, the chances of you drawing a card with that suit are greatly diminished. You don't even have to specifically count cards to draw that association.

I may be overstating the value of suits in Malifaux flips, but it's an element of the game that adds to its depth that many newcomers seem to greatly underappreciate or ignore. Higher numbers alone may simply allow you to succeed at an action, but getting the right suit could allow you to get an extra spellcast, cause unavoidable damage, move a little bit, and other triggers regardless of whether your initial action succeeded or not.

It works and adds depth, but at the horrendous cost of complications and time sinks.

One of the reasons why dice work best is that a roll is over and resolved quickly. Having to play a separate card game whenever you want to resolve an attack or do anything, multiplied by how often you need to do that in a game, adds up to a lot of wasted time, only to accomplish the same thing as a roll.

I think they missed a real opportunity to create a custom resolution deck with things like special icons, similar to board game resolution decks. It would let them quickly resolve an action but still have some card play. Then if they really want they can put a number and suit in the corner to trigger stuff off of.

 Vertrucio wrote:
It works and adds depth, but at the horrendous cost of complications and time sinks.

One of the reasons why dice work best is that a roll is over and resolved quickly. Having to play a separate card game whenever you want to resolve an attack or do anything, multiplied by how often you need to do that in a game, adds up to a lot of wasted time, only to accomplish the same thing as a roll.

I think they missed a real opportunity to create a custom resolution deck with things like special icons, similar to board game resolution decks. It would let them quickly resolve an action but still have some card play. Then if they really want they can put a number and suit in the corner to trigger stuff off of.

Interesting but don't really see that - drawing the card takes no more time then rolling a dice - the difference is that there are both suits which are a major part of the game and allow variations in the results and different options for the player and also you can cheat it with your hand - again more options and opprtunities for both sides. Its a skirmish game with not that many models.

I'm really surprised that so many of you say it's a huge time sink, do you play very often? Or more infrequently? Because I only get to play Malifaux semi-regularly around the other games, and I find no real difference between flipping a card and adding it to my Df/Wp, and checking the suit/my card for triggers than I do rolling 2D6, adding it to my RAT, and checking the dice for a pair/my card for a critical ability in WM/H. Yes there's the next step of cheating, but that isn't usually a long, drawn out decision, you know if you need to bump it or not usually as soon as the card flips, because you're either fishing for a certain trigger/high number, or you have one in your hand. And in games like WM/H when you have abilities that allow you to re-roll one/both of the dice that you just rolled, and you have to decide if you will or won't, it isn't that dissimilar again. But that might just be me

 motyak wrote:
I'm really surprised that so many of you say it's a huge time sink, do you play very often? Or more infrequently? Because I only get to play Malifaux semi-regularly around the other games, and I find no real difference between flipping a card and adding it to my Df/Wp, and checking the suit/my card for triggers than I do rolling 2D6, adding it to my RAT, and checking the dice for a pair/my card for a critical ability in WM/H. Yes there's the next step of cheating, but that isn't usually a long, drawn out decision, you know if you need to bump it or not usually as soon as the card flips, because you're either fishing for a certain trigger/high number, or you have one in your hand. And in games like WM/H when you have abilities that allow you to re-roll one/both of the dice that you just rolled, and you have to decide if you will or won't, it isn't that dissimilar again. But that might just be me

I agree. As someone who runs Horde IG in 40k, and so frequently has to roll 50+ dice 3 times (hit, wound, save), picking out successess each time and often with re-rolls, Malifaux Duels do not take a long time. Both players flip a card and add a number, decide to cheat or not, highest score wins. Then flip Damage, check number against table, note down any wounds, move on.

I can see how it can seem complicated at first, but compared to 40k, WFB, Deadzone or even Infinity, taking an action does not take a huge amount of time once both players are on the ball. Check out some batreps on youtube, and you'll see how fast it actually plays.

Starting Malifaux can be rough because of getting used to cards instead of dice. However, after a few games, it's incredibly smooth because you'll be comfortable with it.

It's all duels/tests like in DnD or any other RPG, but using cards instead of dice and instead of re-rolls, you can cheat fate using cards in your hands.

Suits/Triggers take a bit of getting used to, but add a very good element to the game.

If you didn't like how Malifaux played during its previous editions, give it a try with M2E. If you don't like it, you'll know for certain, but it has greatly improved over past editions.

 TheKbob wrote:
The issue is that you can count cards.

That's part of the point though; with dice each roll is distinct and unrelated to everything else. You can roll straight 1's or straight 6's indefinitely. With the cards you've given a certain amount of luck/reassurance, and the cheating (swapping in cards from your hands) allows you to blow some of that luck to do something. Think of it like a more involved re-roll counter. If something goes wrong (like you hit your own guy in melee) you can cheat in crap cards. Or if you've got one action you really want to work you can cheat in a good card, knowing that the card is then lost. If your hand has nothing above a 3 in it, and you keep drawing low values, you know that soon you're going to have a deck of high numbers and things will look up again, so it adds a bit of balance.


It also allows you many more gradations of result than a D6, you're essentially D13 + suits (you get triggers, which let you do something else if you get a given combination of suits).

This all sounds quite complicated compared to 40K's to-hit, to-wound, to-save mechanic, but remember you'll have at most about 10 mini's on the table, and I find it creates a lot more banter and engagement between players than a dice roll.

I wouldn't want to use cards in 40K, but I think the way it's done in Malifaux is brilliant.

People are forgetting that the card mechanic involves both players, it is less one sided than rolling dice at someone. Helps keep both players engaged even when not the active player.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
People are forgetting that the card mechanic involves both players, it is less one sided than rolling dice at someone. Helps keep both players engaged even when not the active player.

although the to hit, to wound - save mechanism is not that different - but takes a bit longer as its not simultaneous - its often the "cheat" aspect that requires a bit of time as its a tactical decision rather than a straight reaction?

Yeah, the defending player gets the opportunity to cheat it, or use a trigger or reaction, so has some thinking and actual involvement, rather than just rolling some dice that could easily be done by the current player.

3+ save by the defender is the same as a 5+ kill by the attacker.

Something else that I like about the card mechanic is that it allows for a larger range of ability for models. By that I mean it is possible to have a larger range of ability scores that are meaningful, in dice games using a D6 mechanic it often happens that there is a diminishing return on having higher stats.

I also like the cheat mechanic as it allows a good degree of control over important moments of the game.