Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have an unusual situation: I have a small (1250) tournament coming up soon. No lords of war allowed, maelstrom missions, 3-4 games. Lately I've been playing the guy who will likely win the tourney (he's won the last couple). He has told me (multiple times, actually) that I'm really the only player he's concerned about, since a few of the last ones have ended up with him as #1 and me as #2 playing the final game. Most of the people at these tourneys aren't very competitive/good, so his strategy is to tailor against the 2 possible armies I could bring and assume that his list will still be good enough to beat the other 2-3 players he'll go against. I play imperial knights and grey knights, he plays eldar.

He used to run more wave serpents, but his latest list iteration is:
Autarch with fusion gun
2 3-man jetbike squadrons
1 5-man dire avengers in wave serpent
1 5-man fire dragon in wave serpent
1 squadron of 2 hornets with pulse lasers (he bought these just for me)
1 wraithknight with wraithcannons
DE allies
1 Archon with blaster, webway, and shadow field
1 5-man kabalite warriors

He puts the HQs in the serpent with the fire dragons, the archon does his thing then the eldar stuff fries dreadknights, termies, or knights (battle focus around the shield). The bikes grab objectives, the serpents shoot and bladestorm from everything makes my termies sad. He holds the hornets in reserve so I can't alpha strike them and 8 pulse laser shots put the hurt on my other dreadknight or termies as well. I've essentially tried 2 builds:
GK (NSF) - 2 DK w/psycannon, ML3 libby, 3 5-man termie squads (psycannons) and a comm relay.
Knights - Ad lance with eversor assassin (only 1 game with this, more of a "fun" game)

As I've said before, there aren't going to be many (if any) lists that will make him pay for specializing, and it's still a good enough TAC list to survive anything except green tide or flyer spam. So, does anyone have suggestions as to how I could beat this list or something like it? GK just doesn't have enough bodies or mobility to grab 6 objectives at that point value and still survive, and my IK suffer from lack of effective bubble wrap. I've considered a mix of GK and IK, not sure on the proportions for that point value (again, bubblewrap for the knight is difficult) or Inquisition allies for either Ad lance or GK. I own a drop pod, Tigurius, and 10 PA SM so that is an option for allies as well. I also own pretty much everything GK, and every variant of imperial knight (all FW, 4 errants and 2 paladins). I'd like to beat this guy for the grudge match (and also because he's a very cocky player). As far as the other lists at the tournament, there will be probably a couple serpent spam lists (half the players use Eldar), some wolves, tau, and IG. I'm open to suggestions.

Have you tried dropping a dreadknight and some other stuff for a paladin star? You've got a good chance of getting gate/sanctuary, plus IIRC the dreadknight has sanctuary by default. I've had some good success with a librarian and like 7 Paladins

What do you have available for models?

Go totally against the grain for grey knights, make him waste single shot high ap weapons on basic strike squads. You have combat squad, flood the board with units and rhinos, then beat him on objectives.

MSU strike squads will make everything he's bringing weep.

Any force weap that can hit at s5+ can threaten the WK. He should kill whatever he pours his shots into, so split them up into smaller squads. Almost entirely AP2 spam, so some PAGK should do nicely.

Have you tried dropping a dreadknight and some other stuff for a paladin star?

I've only had a few games against this list, so I haven't tried too many different things. The problem with the paladin star is that the things that deal with IK and termies deal with paladins just as well, and I won't get the benefit of more models.

Go totally against the grain for grey knights, make him waste single shot high ap weapons on basic strike squads. You have combat squad, flood the board with units and rhinos, then beat him on objectives.

The one thing that I don't have are lots of rhinos (I just have 2 at the moment, I'm willing to buy a couple more though). I have plenty of strike squad models though, so that's a decent option. Obsec with melee capability will keep the jetbikes away, try to survive and win on objectives.

As far as models, I have a massive amount of termies, a bunch of PA guys, interceptors, 3 storm ravens, 3 DK, 3 LR (one of each), 2 rhinos, and every HQ. I also have a bunch of kasrkin models I use/used for henchmen acolytes, a smattering of other henchmen models, the assassins, as well as the previously mentioned imperial knights and space marines. The other factor to consider is unlike my ultimate opponent, I actually have to put thought into my list to deal with wave serpent spam and other possible lists I might see.

So here is my initial thought based on what you have and what he likes to bring.

Nemesis Strike Force Detachment

Librarian, Level 3 Upgrade
10 man Strike Squad, 2 Psycannons
10 man Strike Squad, 2 Psycannons
Dreadknight, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Great Sword, Teleporter
Dreadknight, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Great Sword, Teleporter
Purgation Squad, 4 Psycannons

Put everything into deep strike reserves and, if possible, make your opponent go first. This will waste a turn of his shooting and then with all that S7 you should be able to cripple his hornets. I like the dreadknights for their resiliency and late game mobility, but you could also replace them with an additional purgation squad and two five man interceptor squads with psycannons for a little more MSU feel. Roll the librarian on diviniation to make your purgation squad's strike more effective when they come in. You still get 8 + d6 warp charges (10 + d6 if you combat squad the strikes), so you should be able to buff your units reliably and between hammerhand and force, every unit can threaten the wraithknight in combat with instant death except the purgation squad (and they can do it if you do some weapon swaps on the librarians base kit). The NSF also gives you a free turn of battle focus to help mitigate the effects of deep strike scatter.

PanzerLeader wrote:
So here is my initial thought based on what you have and what he likes to bring.

He usually holds everything except a wave serpent and wraithknight in reserve, so alpha-striking them is out of the question. However, the msu will probably help, thanks. Would taking a CAD for obsec be better?

How are the kabalites armed? Splinter weapons? I'm not that familiar with their capabilities, but I assume they have poison. It looks like he's loaded up for killing MCs and armor, so I second the idea of putting lots of power armor on the field. He also doesn't look to have much anti-air other than the serpents, so I might consider dropping a dreadknight for a storm raven (not sure how the points add up). Then, try to go second so you can force some of his reserves to come in before the Storm Raven arrives. The Dreadknight should be on dedicated Hornet-killing duty, by the way. Those things are nasty, but the incinerator should be a big help if you can teleport into template range.

 greyknight12 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
So here is my initial thought based on what you have and what he likes to bring.

He usually holds everything except a wave serpent and wraithknight in reserve, so alpha-striking them is out of the question. However, the msu will probably help, thanks. Would taking a CAD for obsec be better?

In this case, I don't think it would be. His OBSEC units are pretty weedy except the serpents. You should be able to threaten them easily. What serpent does he like to start on the board?

Dire avenger serpent starts on the board, fire dragon serpent comes in with the archon so the dragons can hop out and torch stuff.

Are the missions *true* maelstrom? If yes, then by all means go with the Nemesis Strike Force and as much MSU as you can get. Score your points early and focus on reducing his mobility (jet bikes and serpents).

Try not to give him an optimal target for his Fire Dragons, but do give him one (Dreadknight in 4+ cover maybe) so he disembarks. Then kill the serpent before cleaning up the Fire Dragons (obviously position your shooting so the Archon can't tank).

 greyknight12 wrote:
Dire avenger serpent starts on the board, fire dragon serpent comes in with the archon so the dragons can hop out and torch stuff.

Even better. Use the NSF to land within optimal range on turn one. Shoot the wave serpent to shreds (you have as many as 32 psycannon shots on arrival, some of which can be buffed) and then use your bonus to run into good cover. Use the psychic phase to buff the squads closest to the wraithknight with hammerhand and force to really discourage him from assaulting. If you're really lucky, the wave serpent will get glanced out and you'll still have a dreadknight worth of shooting left to roast avengers with the heavy incinerator. When he enters play, he'll be down a good 20% of his army if you get the DAVUs and serpent and be forced to make some tough decisions about what to expose.