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So when sequencing on page 17 says, "While playing warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally 'at the start of the movement phase' or similar..." that it doesn't really matter if the trigger is the start of the movement phase, you can resolve them in order of the mechanic of the rule instead of the trigger and ignore sequencing for those rules?

Okay,

Soulrazor wrote: When a model suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from this weapon, it must pass a separate Leadership test for each Wound suffered or be removed from play.

Triggers on unsaved Wounds, like all the others.
Effects are exactly like Helfrost: each time a Wound is suffered (-1W, Step 2) above) the model has to check.

If there not a Soulrazor V FNP thread?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NightHowler wrote:
So when sequencing on page 17 says, "While playing warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally 'at the start of the movement phase' or similar..." that it doesn't really matter if the trigger is the start of the movement phase, you can resolve them in order of the mechanic of the rule instead of the trigger and ignore sequencing for those rules?

Usually those rules happen "immediately", so you can't really "immediately" 3 things at the same time.
Hence Sequencing.

If a rule said:
A) "at the start of the movement phase, count the model's Wounds. If the number is 2 or less, remove the model at the end of the Shooting Phase"
and another had:
B)"at the start of the movement phase, if the model has 2 Wounds left, add 1 Wound at the end of the movement phase"

Do you sequence them?

Clearly the model regains a Wound at the end of movement. Why would you still remove him at the end of the Shooting Phase? He has 3 Wounds left.
You could Sequence "B" first.
It still means "A" will have it's effects before "B", and invalidating it either way.

If the model's FNP succeeded, and "the unsaved Wound is discounted – treat it as having been saved." Why do you still roll Helfrost.

 BlackTalos wrote:


If the model's FNP succeeded, and "the unsaved Wound is discounted – treat it as having been saved." Why do you still roll Helfrost.

Because at the exact same time you roll your FNP roll you roll a strength test as well.

I guess where we really disagree is when you say you have to roll Helfrost after a wound is lost. As I understand it, you believe this is the timing because of the wording of Helfrost that you roll for "each wound suffered" which you are interpret to mean "after -1 wounds" instead of "after each failed save". Am I correct in how I understand your reasoning?

rigeld, when does a model suffer a wound? Before or after reducing the wounds characteristic by 1?

 NightHowler wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:


If the model's FNP succeeded, and "the unsaved Wound is discounted – treat it as having been saved." Why do you still roll Helfrost.

Because at the exact same time you roll your FNP roll you roll a strength test as well.

I guess where we really disagree is when you say you have to roll Helfrost after a wound is lost. As I understand it, you believe this is the timing because of the wording of Helfrost that you roll for "each wound suffered" which you are interpret to mean "after -1 wounds" instead of "after each failed save". Am I correct in how I understand your reasoning?

Yes, that is indeed where i get it from.

When actually playing on the table, sure, the rolls are at the same time between other roll, but that is the same as saying Saves rolls and FNP rolls are at the same time. You have to look at RaW to know you roll saves first and then FNP. I think the same applies here.

 Happyjew wrote:
rigeld, when does a model suffer a wound? Before or after reducing the wounds characteristic by 1?

After. FNP forces you to undo that wound because it was actually saved.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:


If the model's FNP succeeded, and "the unsaved Wound is discounted – treat it as having been saved." Why do you still roll Helfrost.

Because at the exact same time you roll your FNP roll you roll a strength test as well.

I guess where we really disagree is when you say you have to roll Helfrost after a wound is lost. As I understand it, you believe this is the timing because of the wording of Helfrost that you roll for "each wound suffered" which you are interpret to mean "after -1 wounds" instead of "after each failed save". Am I correct in how I understand your reasoning?

Yes, that is indeed where i get it from.

When actually playing on the table, sure, the rolls are at the same time between other roll, but that is the same as saying Saves rolls and FNP rolls are at the same time. You have to look at RaW to know you roll saves first and then FNP. I think the same applies here.

You roll to hit, then wound, then remove casualties, then roll saves. Because that is how the rules are written. Of course we know that is not how it works, because Saves interrupt the removal process. The wound was already done, so any rule that says for each wound suffered goes before the save process.

I guess it would be, I wound you 4 time with a weapon that says for each wound suffered, you fail 2 saves, then you would take 4 rolls against the LD or S test. because you suffered 4 wounds with the weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
rigeld, when does a model suffer a wound? Before or after reducing the wounds characteristic by 1?

Immediately after you roll the to wound roll. Read the wounding process, you save wounds. As such you are already wounded, so the rule obviously happens even if you pass your save.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:


If the model's FNP succeeded, and "the unsaved Wound is discounted – treat it as having been saved." Why do you still roll Helfrost.

Because at the exact same time you roll your FNP roll you roll a strength test as well.

I guess where we really disagree is when you say you have to roll Helfrost after a wound is lost. As I understand it, you believe this is the timing because of the wording of Helfrost that you roll for "each wound suffered" which you are interpret to mean "after -1 wounds" instead of "after each failed save". Am I correct in how I understand your reasoning?

Yes, that is indeed where i get it from.

When actually playing on the table, sure, the rolls are at the same time between other roll, but that is the same as saying Saves rolls and FNP rolls are at the same time. You have to look at RaW to know you roll saves first and then FNP. I think the same applies here.

But this is another place where I believe your reasoning breaks down. The book uses the words "suffer a wound" to describe what happens both before a save is made and after a save is made.

BRB page 36, column 2, paragraph 3, under Armor Saves:
If the result is lower than the armor save value, the armor fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a wound.

BRB page 37, column 1, paragraph 2, under Invulnerable Saves:
Invulnerable saves are different to armor saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound.

So you could use page 36 to say that Helfrost doesn't happen at the same time because you have to wait until the model suffers a wound (which I disagree with, but for the sake of this argument), but I could use page 37 to say that Helfrost happens even before you make a save (which again I think is false, but I'm demonstrating why we can't use "suffer a wound" to show timing).

I argue that we absolutely must use the trigger to show exactly when something happens. The model suffers an unsaved wound the second that an armor save is failed. When it suffers that wound you roll a strength test. You see the use of the word suffer that wound to describe the failed armor save? My position is that this choice of words was made carelessly and cannot be used to delay a rule until after the other special rules with the same trigger.

Same trigger = occur simultaneously.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:


When must it pass a Strength Test?
For each wound suffered.

Does this rule apply to all Wounds that the model takes? Dangerous terrain, etc?
No, when a models suffers () unsaved wounds from this weapon.


Obviously only if you can see that the rules triggering and when the effect of them happens is a different timing. With Shadow Field "happening" at the end of the Phase.

You do realize that FnP says "Roll a D6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered."
Sounds an awful lot like "take a S test for each unsaved wound suffered"
Or "take a LD test for each wound suffered"
Using the full rule for other rules and not the full rule for FnP to try and prove FnP goes first doesn't work when you further look at the FnP rule and see it says the same thing.

helfrost does not say to to take a S test for each unsaved wound suffered, it says to take a S test for each wound suffered.

blaktoof wrote:

helfrost does not say to to take a S test for each unsaved wound suffered, it says to take a S test for each wound suffered.

Yeah, already went through that one. I don't own marine crap, so I missed it in the reading of the posts here. There have been a couple misquotes on here, by both sides. It is amazing what the human mind will insert or omit when you read something to quickly. I am currently rereading all the relevant rules, very slowly, so I can continue this discussion better armed for any further rules discrepancies.

So... We don't seem to be getting anywhere with this one. Time to move on.

Add it to the ' discuss with opponent before the game ' list if in doubt.