Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What happens when a wolf lord wearing the Pelt of Balewolf and a Demon Prince meet up in assault?

Pelt of Balewolf - "The wearer of the Pelt of Balewolf has the Fear special rule. Furthermore, enemy units with the Beasts, Cavalry or Monstrous Creature unit types that are in base contact with the wearer or his unit automatically fail any Fear tests they are required to make unless they have the And They Shall Know No Fear or Fearless special rules."

Demonic Instability - "...automatically pass Fear, Pinning and Morale tests."


Which takes precedence?

Daemon Princes have the Daemon rule which means they have Fear and so are not affected.


*EDIT: I'm an idiot, ignore me.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:
Daemon Princes have the Daemon rule which means they have Fear and so are not affected.

Fear allows the model to cause fear, but doesn't protect it against fear.

 Stephanius wrote:

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:
Daemon Princes have the Daemon rule which means they have Fear and so are not affected.

Fear allows the model to cause fear, but doesn't protect it against fear.

Ahh crap I miss read the OP. I thought it was "And They Shall Know No Fear, Fear and Fearless" my bad. It's what I get for having my browser in a small window.

 deviantduck wrote:
What happens when a wolf lord wearing the Pelt of Balewolf and a Demon Prince meet up in assault?

Pelt of Balewolf - "The wearer of the Pelt of Balewolf has the Fear special rule. Furthermore, enemy units with the Beasts, Cavalry or Monstrous Creature unit types that are in base contact with the wearer or his unit automatically fail any Fear tests they are required to make unless they have the And They Shall Know No Fear or Fearless special rules."

Demonic Instability - "...automatically pass Fear, Pinning and Morale tests."


Which takes precedence?

Unlike CSM demon princes, the chaos demon DPs do noy have the fearless special rule. That is why the question pops up if I understand correctly.

I consider models with demonic instability a more specific subset of the general non-fearless, non-atsknf crowd and the rule more specific than the BRB special rules fearless and atsknf and therefore consider the test automatically passed.

Bet you a dollar it is; " they pass the test on their turn and fail on their opponents turn"... I believe their is precedence in the faq.

My guess is that the Pelt takes precedence. The Pelt states that a specific unit type can only ignore it, if they are Fearless or have ATSKNF USR.
The instability rule allows you to pass any test, but the Pelt explains that you always fail, unless you have those USR's.
It's like Snap Shot. You can have all kinds of rules that states that you always hit on X or Y value, but unless it specifically mentions that you can ignore the BS1 penalty of Snap Shot, then you aren't allowed to bypass that.

Just my take on this though.

This is not a sequencing question, so dependency on who determines sequence isn't a factor.

The pelt rule calls out two BRB special rules which are relevant. It doesn't call out the demon codex special rule as a more specific rule fulfilling the same function.

If anything, this is similar to Kharn vs Invisibility. Always on 2+ vs only on 6+. Kharn's rule is more specific. Same for the demons here.

 Stephanius wrote:
If anything, this is similar to Kharn vs Invisibility. Always on 2+ vs only on 6+. Kharn's rule is more specific. Same for the demons here.

Not too sure about that one. Kharn is To Hit rolls specific, whereas Invisibility is general "all snap shots and 6s in CC"

If anything, i'd agree with Zewrath:

Demonic Instability is quite general: Passes Fear and Pinning and Morale tests.
Pelt of Balewolf is much more specific: Monstrous Creature auto-fail, only AtSKnF or Fearless can deny

Probably down to sequencing at this point.

The only thing that might come close otherwise is re-rolls:

If two or more special rules combine to the effect that both all failed and all successful dice results would have to be re-rolled, do not re-roll any dice; simply use the original result(s) instead.

The brb says that if you are under the effects of re-rolling all failed and re-rolling all successful dice then the effects cancel out. HIWPI is the same they auto pass and auto fail so the affects cancel out and the DP would have to take a normal fear test.

the cancelling out is a good point. that's how i'd recommend it to be done.

Also, the pelt and demonic instability are both from codices so neither trumps the other.

If how you quoted the rule for Pelt of the Balewolf is the exact quote I don't see this coming up very often. Most people have wings on their Demon Princes making them Flying Monstrous Creatures IE the pelt has no effect on them anywho. Heck the only thing it could work on is a walking demon prince, or an unlucky tyranid who wandered out of synapse range. Since Riptides are Jetpack Monstrous Creatures and Wraith Knights are Jump Monstrous Creatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh sorry it would also work on a keeper of secrets or a Greater unclean one

Super strict? The pelt is much narrower in scope, so it wins through specificity. Playable for good sporting? ROLL OFF! DUN-DUN-DUNNNNNN!

icefire78 wrote:
If how you quoted the rule for Pelt of the Balewolf is the exact quote I don't see this coming up very often. Most people have wings on their Demon Princes making them Flying Monstrous Creatures IE the pelt has no effect on them anywho. Heck the only thing it could work on is a walking demon prince, or an unlucky tyranid who wandered out of synapse range. Since Riptides are Jetpack Monstrous Creatures and Wraith Knights are Jump Monstrous Creatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh sorry it would also work on a keeper of secrets or a Greater unclean one

FMCs are still MCs, so it would affect them, too. Just like Strafing run grants +1 BS to flyers targeting FMCs and MCs.