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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 04:06:57
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Parity wrote:Aren't they roughly in-line with their general principle though? They're supposedly to be heavily armored to defend or spearhead and not necessarily be like devastators. To this end they have their 2+, invuln save, storm bolters, and fists with options for missiles and canons should you wish for more of a firebase.
What type of offense do you have in mind?
Stormbolters are awful weapons. Likewise, a single assault cannon or missile launcher is equally useless. I'm open to ideas. As it stands, they can't defend, can't assault, can't spearhead, and can't shoot. There is good justification in the thread for why they shouldn't be tougher, so they need more offense.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 04:37:21
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Martel732 wrote:" It calls for the whole damn game to be rebalanced, which is unfortunately unlikely to happen. "
So we are back to buffing terminators.
Lets look at some stuff they used to have then.
They used to have Teleport Homers incorporated into their wargear so additional units could follow them after they've broken through an enemy line.
Likewise, they used to have Targeters, these could be used to give something like "reroll to-hit rolls of 1 when shooting" or ignore the effects of Stealth/Shrouded or something. Maybe Preferred Enemy?
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 04:39:59
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Dakka Veteran
Miles City, MT
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SGTPozy wrote: NorseSig wrote:Maybe make a power weapon storm bolter termie 30ppm. TDA gives T5 and reduce the ap of all shooting against models wearing it by 1 (ap1 becomes ap2, and ap2 becomes ap3 ect). Buff storm bolters a bit to make them worth the 5 points they cost (salvo 2/3 or 2/4 maybe with rending on 2/3 profile). Maybe even make them like wolfguard terminators in that they can also be made into assault variant which would make a single unit profile instead of two. The mixing and matching could really help them out.
Really? ALL of that AND a point reduction? If we're going with that then Grots for Orks should be free (or be negative points thus rewarding you for using them)
Sorry I phrased things poorly. What I meant was maybe one or some of these things be applied, but probably not all of them. And the points reduction for what they are currently is inline with other armies like space wolves who get some extra rules that help them out (about 3 ppm worth). And storm bolters are at best right now a 1point upgrade. they aren't worth the 5 points they are now. I was just throwing ideas out there to try and fix the problem. Just because I worded things poorly doesn't give you the right to be condescending. If you don't agree with me then fine. But how about actually contributing to the discussion in a mature and productive manner.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/17 04:51:46
Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 04:59:36
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Longtime Dakkanaut
St. George, UT
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I disagree with making them any harder to kill. Things in 40K are supposed to die. If nothing dies in the game, then at the end of the game, you still are where you started.
Yes it sucks when your guys die, but you like it when the other guys stuff dies. Its all part of the game. Making Terminators unkillable will suddenly be no fun at all for half of the people playing the game.
You want to make them more attractive, increase the damage output. But not by adding more shots, just make them better at what they do. Bump weapon skill to 5 and BS to 5. Retcon the fluff that only the biggest baddest marines get the honor of wearing terminator armor. Thus the WS5. BS 5 could easily be achieved by internal targeting systems.
Now most of your attacks are hitting more often. Thus giving you a better change to enjoy the killing aspect of the game, but havent really ruined the fun for the other guy either.
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See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:

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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 05:49:27
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Making them BS/WS5 would have a neglible impact, as Deathwing Knights show us. Not being able to hit often enough isn't their problem- having garbage-tier ranged weaponry is their problem.
If upping their offensive capabilities is preferable to making them tougher, then the only way to realistically do that is to give them more access to decent weaponry.
Combine the assault/tactical tactical terminator profiles into one, just called "terminators", and make them 30ppm for the termie armor and storm-bolter/power weapn stock.
Then take a page out of the TWC playbook and remove the unit size requirements for what they can take- allow each model to take whatever they want.
A 5-man unit with 5 assault cannons would cost 250 points. That's fair for a unit that can be crippled if not outright killed by units that are half their cost in a single round of shooting. You want to take storm-shields on top of that so that you're 2+sv dudes with assault cannons also get a 3++? Go right ahead man. You're now paying 300 points for 5 t4 wounds but hey whatever dude. It works out mechanically.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/17 06:04:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 06:02:01
Subject: Re:Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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Terminator problems:
Expensive
Poor shooting per point
Poor surivability per point
Slow speed
Expensive transport options
Low number of special/heavy weapons
No sweeping advance
If they reduced or removed any number of these problems they would be better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 06:40:49
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Stalwart Tribune
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Just minor modifications:
-Terminator with power weapon and storm bolter 32p
-each terminator can take special/heavy weapon
-At least one ap2 close combat weapon with iniative (or ignore unwieldly rule)
Maybe ignore unwieldly would be enought alone.
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If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 06:55:53
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Longtime Dakkanaut
St. George, UT
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The underlying problem that can't be fixed is that terminators have lost their job. Back in fourth edition they were solid becuase units like sternguard and centurions didn't exist. They were your mobile heavy weapons platform and put out more dakka per model at 24 inches than anything else in the book. But with every new edition marines got a new book, and with that new bling. But Ohh no, you can't take out the old stuff, but it can't be made as cool as the new stuff or the new stuff won't sell. Rince and repeat for 20 years and you have units like terminators and tactical squads that just can't keep up. And you end up with tbey current codex that has way too many cooks in the kitchen. 40k needs a knife, not an upgrade. Too many codexs just have too many units. Old Units that just fattened the book without actually doing anything. Automatically Appended Next Post: So lets get rid of the competition. Dump both sternguard and centurions from the codexs. Allow tactical terminators to take two heavy weapons at five models and give the sternguard special ammo options to the ones that retain their stormbolters
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/17 07:01:22
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:

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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 08:21:52
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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BlaxicanX wrote:Making them BS/WS5 would have a neglible impact, as Deathwing Knights show us. Not being able to hit often enough isn't their problem- having garbage-tier ranged weaponry is their problem.
If upping their offensive capabilities is preferable to making them tougher, then the only way to realistically do that is to give them more access to decent weaponry.
Combine the assault/tactical tactical terminator profiles into one, just called "terminators", and make them 30ppm for the termie armor and storm-bolter/power weapn stock.
Then take a page out of the TWC playbook and remove the unit size requirements for what they can take- allow each model to take whatever they want.
A 5-man unit with 5 assault cannons would cost 250 points. That's fair for a unit that can be crippled if not outright killed by units that are half their cost in a single round of shooting. You want to take storm-shields on top of that so that you're 2+ sv dudes with assault cannons also get a 3++? Go right ahead man. You're now paying 300 points for 5 t4 wounds but hey whatever dude. It works out mechanically.
Aside from the fact that 5 assault cannons would be a ludicrous amount of firepower that's effective against literally everything in the game, you'd be introducing a false sense of choice.
Effectively what you'd see is a bunch of small-minimum sized units loaded with heavy weapons, or something like 3 AC's and 2 Stormshields to tank wounds.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 08:44:28
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Dakka Veteran
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Why is it mostly Tactical Terminators, which are complained about? Two lightning claws compared to a Power fist doesn't seem as much more utility. Is it the cheap upgrade to thunder hammer and storm shield which makes the difference?
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Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 08:53:34
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Chaospling wrote:Why is it mostly Tactical Terminators, which are complained about? Two lightning claws compared to a Power fist doesn't seem as much more utility. Is it the cheap upgrade to thunder hammer and storm shield which makes the difference?
Aye, it's the TH/ SS upgrade. That 3++ largely nullifies AP2 weapons, meaning that you can only really kill them the hard way, making them a pretty auto-pilot unit that doesn't require much support to use effectively, and you can often muck up with them and still be OK.
Back when Stormshields were just a 4++ (and only against CC attacks), Lightning Claw terminators were much more popular, particularly when there was more access to Furious Charge which at the time also could make them I5.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 08:59:03
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Dakka Veteran
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Vaktathi wrote:Chaospling wrote:Why is it mostly Tactical Terminators, which are complained about? Two lightning claws compared to a Power fist doesn't seem as much more utility. Is it the cheap upgrade to thunder hammer and storm shield which makes the difference?
Aye, it's the TH/ SS upgrade. That 3++ largely nullifies AP2 weapons, meaning that you can only really kill them the hard way, making them a pretty auto-pilot unit that doesn't require much support to use effectively, and you can often muck up with them and still be OK.
Back when Stormshields were just a 4++ (and only against CC attacks), Lightning Claw terminators were much more popular, particularly when there was more access to Furious Charge which at the time also could make them I5.
Ok, if the cost of a thunder hammer and storm shield were doubled, do you think that it would still be an interesting upgrade or is the current cost well balanced?
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Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 09:36:25
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Vaktathi wrote:Aside from the fact that 5 assault cannons would be a ludicrous amount of firepower that's effective against literally everything in the game,
It's not that ludicrous in the context of what you're paying. 20 Assault cannon shots at BS4 is killing 5 marines or knocking 2 HP off AV14 on average. Assuming no invulns/cover on either. For 250 points. Whoopie. you'd be introducing a false sense of choice. Effectively what you'd see is a bunch of small-minimum sized units loaded with heavy weapons, or something like 3 AC's and 2 Stormshields to tank wounds.
Compared to the current situation in which we see none at all because no one in their right minds would ever take Tactical Terminators in an even slightly competitive environment. I don't see how them being used as MSU is a bad thing, though. That's generally how most expensive ppm units are run. Few people take max sized TWC or Centurion squads, for example.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/02/17 09:41:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 09:53:51
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Stalwart Tribune
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The Tyrant Siege Terminators have missile launchers in every model.
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If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 10:21:31
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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BlaxicanX wrote: Vaktathi wrote:Aside from the fact that 5 assault cannons would be a ludicrous amount of firepower that's effective against literally everything in the game,
It's not that ludicrous in the context of what you're paying. 20 Assault cannon shots at BS4 is killing 5 marines or knocking 2 HP off AV14 on average. Assuming no invulns/cover on either. For 250 points. Whoopie.
In that case we're talking about as many dead marines as from 4 or 5 double-tapping plasma guns, and as many HP's on AV14 as 9 BS4 Lascannons, while still packing enough anti-horde firepower to average 11-12 IG/Ork/Eldar/Tau infantry a turn.
It's not just about the raw firepower (which isn't unimpressive), but the versatility of being incredibly effective against *everything*.
Compared to the current situation in which we see none at all because no one in their right minds would ever take Tactical Terminators in an even slightly competitive environment.
The point was that you might as well just include the heavy weapons at that point in the base wargear and cost, because people aren't going to *not* take them en-masse, You'd be taking them from a generalist heavy infantry unit to effectively another Centurion unit.
Chaospling wrote: Vaktathi wrote:Chaospling wrote:Why is it mostly Tactical Terminators, which are complained about? Two lightning claws compared to a Power fist doesn't seem as much more utility. Is it the cheap upgrade to thunder hammer and storm shield which makes the difference?
Aye, it's the TH/ SS upgrade. That 3++ largely nullifies AP2 weapons, meaning that you can only really kill them the hard way, making them a pretty auto-pilot unit that doesn't require much support to use effectively, and you can often muck up with them and still be OK.
Back when Stormshields were just a 4++ (and only against CC attacks), Lightning Claw terminators were much more popular, particularly when there was more access to Furious Charge which at the time also could make them I5.
Ok, if the cost of a thunder hammer and storm shield were doubled, do you think that it would still be an interesting upgrade or is the current cost well balanced?
I'm not sure, though that's what about what I'd have costed them at in the first place.
Draco wrote:The Tyrant Siege Terminators have missile launchers in every model.
Keep in mind that HH units are designed and costed to an entirely different design paradigm, where Space Marines have Jetbikes and Devastator equivalent units can have up to 10 heavy weapons and whatnot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/17 10:27:28
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 10:36:21
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Hallowed Canoness
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Jayden63 wrote:Retcon the fluff that only the biggest baddest marines get the honor of wearing terminator armor.
That's... not a retcon...
Besides, Terminators are cool because Cyclones, so... give them more Cyclones!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/17 10:38:33

"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 10:45:34
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Wing Commander
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Vaktathi wrote:
Draco wrote:The Tyrant Siege Terminators have missile launchers in every model.
Keep in mind that HH units are designed and costed to an entirely different design paradigm, where Space Marines have Jetbikes and Devastator equivalent units can have up to 10 heavy weapons and whatnot.
Aye, Terminators in HH work, and work well on account of the hard counters to them being far less present. Standard Imperial Guard and the Xeno armies either have the volume of Ap1/2 weapons, available in template form at range in some cases, or have such obscenely higher volume of fire and/or durability as to make Terminators a) cost ineffecient versus their foes, and b) very lacklustre versus their non- MEQ codex counterparts.
There are relatively few stand-out Terminator counters in HH aside from other terminators; tactical support squads with plasma/melta (but those can't be mandatory troops), Vindicators/Demolishers, max-size Tactical squads double-tapping and Lords of War. They're a lot more impressive via less common counters and power bloat, and that they're often given specific niches via their Legion rules; Iron Hands Gorgon terminators tank fire like nothing else, Emperor's Children Phoenix Guard are meant to be charging amidst a larger melee force, Imperial Fists get to deepstrike and use assault cannons, Iron Warriors' Tyrant Guard shoot, shoot some more and then shoot a little bit more, etc. They have specific roles related to the flavour of their army, and don't have to worry about being wiped off the table in a single shot by weapons notably cheaper than they are. They also score ( HH uses 6th edition scoring rules; troops and specific units only).
They work, by virtue of small buffs to make them attractive base don your legion and with some more customization (Tartaros versus Cataphractii pattern, more gun options, more melee options, etc) and a wider rules environment which is reasonably well balanced, which 40k is not. What I'd like is for 40k to be toned down so Terminators aren't bad choices, but the easier thing from GW's perspective, if they care (which is doubtful) is to buff up those underperforming units to the current "Crank Everything up to 11!!!!1!!1one!!1"
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Therefore, I conclude, Valve should announce Half Life 2: Episode 3.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 10:52:11
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Vaktathi wrote: In that case we're talking about as many dead marines as from 4 or 5 double-tapping plasma guns,and as many HP's on AV14 as 9 BS4 Lascannons, while still packing enough anti-horde firepower to average 11-12 IG/Ork/Eldar/Tau infantry a turn.
And? Pask in a Punisher does as much damage to MEQ as thirteen heavy bolters, and can mulch MC's and vehicles up to AV14 to boot. "It does as much damage as X weapon" is a terrible metric for gauging whether something is overpowered. It's not just about the raw firepower (which isn't unimpressive), but the versatility of being incredibly effective against *everything*.
Well, they aren't incredibly effective against everything- as the math shows- they're middling against everything. For significantly less points I can do much better against any one unit type- 100 point TFC's will do better against infantry and grav will do better against everything else. The point was that you might as well just include the heavy weapons at that point in the base wargear and cost,
I don't see how you could do that, considering the weapons all have different points costs... because people aren't going to *not* take them en-masse,
People don't *not* take special weapons on veteran squads, people don't *not* take storm shields on TWC, people don't *not* take specials on their tactical marines. So? Your argument is that the unit will have an optimal configuration and unoptimal configurations like every other unit in the game? You'd be taking them from a generalist heavy infantry unit to effectively another Centurion unit. What is a "centurion unit" in your context?
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/02/17 11:04:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 10:56:36
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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What about Heavy Bolters instead of Assault Cannons?
Much more effective than Storm Bolters, but not as versatile as assault cannons.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 11:02:10
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Heavy bolters would be a cheaper option.
SInce coming up with the idea earlier, I've been working on a full profile for the unit with points values, full weapon options etc.
I'll make a Proposed Rules thread about it in a bit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 11:02:40
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Been Around the Block
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1. Wraths (non-decurion) are not overpowered, they are at the normal level of power for HtH unit in the game to be playable. (others are 100+ ork mob with fnp, seer consil, beaststar... even the last ones are questionable)
2. T5 fnp = T4 2W (approximately) But first is easier to implement as just rules of TDA.
3. Paladins (55 for 2W + BoP + force weapons) was really playable only in deathstar with wound shenanigans, +1 A banner, FNP, blessings and drago for tanking. Now they are overcosted as well.
4. TS/SS terminators aren't much more playable either - they are still wery vulnerable to small arms as well as absolutely pointless when they have nothing to charge.
5. More firepower is pointless - SM got centurions for it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 11:19:28
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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elotar wrote:1. Wraths (non-decurion) are not overpowered, they are at the normal level of power for HtH unit in the game to be playable. (others are 100+ ork mob with fnp, seer consil, beaststar... even the last ones are questionable)
Sigh.
Statements like this are why the game does nothing but escalate.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 11:26:30
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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vipoid wrote:elotar wrote:1. Wraths (non-decurion) are not overpowered, they are at the normal level of power for HtH unit in the game to be playable. (others are 100+ ork mob with fnp, seer consil, beaststar... even the last ones are questionable)
Sigh.
Statements like this are why the game does nothing but escalate.
You heard it here first folks.
It takes 100 fearless orks (11 of which are wielding powerklaws!) with FNP to make a viable melee unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 11:30:10
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Numberless Necron Warrior
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elotar wrote:1. Wraths (non-decurion) are not overpowered, they are at the normal level of power for HtH unit in the game to be playable.
The decision upgrade for Wraiths is decent but not huge. They are too quick for the Spyder to keep up. It does make a difference turn 1 though.
Other than that Wraiths are likely the most point efficient assault unit in the game and the best unit in the necron codex.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 11:30:15
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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morganfreeman wrote: vipoid wrote:elotar wrote:1. Wraths (non-decurion) are not overpowered, they are at the normal level of power for HtH unit in the game to be playable. (others are 100+ ork mob with fnp, seer consil, beaststar... even the last ones are questionable)
Sigh.
Statements like this are why the game does nothing but escalate.
You heard it here first folks.
It takes 100 fearless orks (11 of which are wielding powerklaws!) with FNP to make a viable melee unit.
It'd be a better game if every side had at least 100 orks.
Why don't we use orks as a ballancing mechanics? For example, when you field a list full of howling banshees and face wraiths spam, you get 50 orks!
How to fix space marine terminators? Add in enough orks!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/17 11:30:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 11:32:58
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
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The real downside of terminators? No cheap assault transport. You have to pay for a transport that costs even more than the termis to get them there... until now! Well... if you are CSM.
A dreadclaw will hold 5 of them, deepstrikes T1, counts as a fast skimmer and is an assault vehicle. For 100pts. Im using one tomorrow with 4 MoK termis with 3 LCs and 1 chainfist with abaddon inside. They will have 4 combi-melta too to toast a tank/walker when disembarking. Thinking of splitting them from 'armless' so he can charge another unit.
I'll let you know how they play out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 11:41:44
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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koooaei wrote:
It'd be a better game if every side had at least 100 orks.
Why don't we use orks as a ballancing mechanics? For example, when you field a list full of howling banshees and face wraiths spam, you get 50 orks!
How to fix space marine terminators? Add in enough orks!
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 13:09:55
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Been Around the Block
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vipoid wrote:
Sigh.
Statements like this are why the game does nothing but escalate.
You can sigh as much as you want, but when you have invulnerable to CC fliers, impossible to catch obsec skimmers, jet-infantry HnR shooting platforms with "overwatch with all army" special rules ets., HtH units must be really tought to see any play.
If you show me how "non OP" CC unit can be used in present competitive environment I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 13:44:17
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Vaktathi wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:Making them BS/WS5 would have a neglible impact, as Deathwing Knights show us. Not being able to hit often enough isn't their problem- having garbage-tier ranged weaponry is their problem.
If upping their offensive capabilities is preferable to making them tougher, then the only way to realistically do that is to give them more access to decent weaponry.
Combine the assault/tactical tactical terminator profiles into one, just called "terminators", and make them 30ppm for the termie armor and storm-bolter/power weapn stock.
Then take a page out of the TWC playbook and remove the unit size requirements for what they can take- allow each model to take whatever they want.
A 5-man unit with 5 assault cannons would cost 250 points. That's fair for a unit that can be crippled if not outright killed by units that are half their cost in a single round of shooting. You want to take storm-shields on top of that so that you're 2+ sv dudes with assault cannons also get a 3++? Go right ahead man. You're now paying 300 points for 5 t4 wounds but hey whatever dude. It works out mechanically.
Aside from the fact that 5 assault cannons would be a ludicrous amount of firepower that's effective against literally everything in the game, you'd be introducing a false sense of choice.
Effectively what you'd see is a bunch of small-minimum sized units loaded with heavy weapons, or something like 3 AC's and 2 Stormshields to tank wounds.
If you think thats ludacris firepower you aren't paying attention. Look at warwalkers...you can get 6 scatter lasers (a comparable weapon to the AC) 100 points less than that and for still less points you can get 6 starcannons which would wipe out a 5 man term squad in a single turn without a shadow of a doubt...and they are immune to small arms - have higher range - and are just as mobile have the same invo save.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/17 13:52:00
Subject: Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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vipoid wrote:elotar wrote:1. Wraths (non-decurion) are not overpowered, they are at the normal level of power for HtH unit in the game to be playable. (others are 100+ ork mob with fnp, seer consil, beaststar... even the last ones are questionable)
Sigh.
Statements like this are why the game does nothing but escalate.
You can't blame him; GW committed the original sin by turning firepower up to "11". If you want an assault unit, it needs to look something like a Wraith or most lists will just look at it and kill it like ASM.
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