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LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
GW gave Necrons something to stand up to Tau/Eldar firepower, and now the rest of us have to deal with it.

'Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.'

I strongly doubt the GW guy who did the wraith stats ever went that far as to actually think how said units would perform in actual games.

And not everything needs to be about Tau

Probably not, but it's sure suspicious.

This argument is as stupid as the one that is complaining about tacs being useless.

Terminators are durable and can perform every job, that's what your paying for. Stop comparing them to other codexes elite CC units or fire bases and saying why aren't my termites that good. Terminators have guns and are active in every phase. The comparison to wraith is absurd, that's a pure cc unit, of course it's going to be good at it, plus necrons are mostly a short ranged shooting army and have to deal with assault via durable fast units that can intercept cc threats. Marines don't have this weakness, everything is decent in assault and they can't be run down.

The codex has to be balanced internally not based on what other races offer. If you make them better at shooting you'll step on cents shoes. And are people really complaining about str8 ap2 3 attacks not being killy enough? Seriously come on.

The only viable complaint, and it's one that plagues most cc units in the game, is that they are slow. But for christs sake you can deep strike, an ability other races have to go far out of their way to give to cc units. Plus your durable enough to survive the shooting and if you don't why the frack would you deep strike in that position without support.

Also termies are expensive so build your list around them, they aren't good enough to just throw in if you have 200pts but they are decent if you compliment them. You won't win tons of tournaments with them since they can't deal with MSUs and can't shoot a unit off the table each turn, but they are still a fine and viable unit. Tournament lists have like 1 or 2 builds per race, marines are centstars but that's the meta of a tournament(spam what's amazing or what you can break).

Punisher wrote:
This argument is as stupid as the one that is complaining about tacs being useless.

Terminators are durable and can perform every job, that's what your paying for. Stop comparing them to other codexes elite CC units or fire bases and saying why aren't my termites that good. Terminators have guns and are active in every phase. The comparison to wraith is absurd, that's a pure cc unit, of course it's going to be good at it, plus necrons are mostly a short ranged shooting army and have to deal with assault via durable fast units that can intercept cc threats. Marines don't have this weakness, everything is decent in assault and they can't be run down.

The codex has to be balanced internally not based on what other races offer. If you make them better at shooting you'll step on cents shoes. And are people really complaining about str8 ap2 3 attacks not being killy enough? Seriously come on.

The only viable complaint, and it's one that plagues most cc units in the game, is that they are slow. But for christs sake you can deep strike, an ability other races have to go far out of their way to give to cc units. Plus your durable enough to survive the shooting and if you don't why the frack would you deep strike in that position without support.

Also termies are expensive so build your list around them, they aren't good enough to just throw in if you have 200pts but they are decent if you compliment them. You won't win tons of tournaments with them since they can't deal with MSUs and can't shoot a unit off the table each turn, but they are still a fine and viable unit. Tournament lists have like 1 or 2 builds per race, marines are centstars but that's the meta of a tournament(spam what's amazing or what you can break).

They are not fine or viable. I could demonstrate this for you over and over, but it doesn't sound like you will be dissuaded. And tacs are indeed useless. Couldn't help myself on that one.

"Terminators are durable"

Not really; math shows why not.

"can perform every job"

They actually fail at every job: they can't deal damage, they can't take damage, and they aren't mobile.

" not based on what other races offer"

Given that we have to place AGAINST those races, this is a nonsense position.

" an ability other races have to go far out of their way to give to cc units."

An ability that actually sucks for assault units. Because, you know, they can't assault. Back in 5th, DoA BA = Dead on Arrival, not Descent of Angels.

Martel732 wrote:


They are not fine or viable. I could demonstrate this for you over and over, but it doesn't sound like you will be dissuaded. And tacs are indeed useless. Couldn't help myself on that one.

"Terminators are durable"

Not really; math shows why not.

"can perform every job"

They actually fail at every job: they can't deal damage, they can't take damage, and they aren't mobile.

" not based on what other races offer"

Given that we have to place AGAINST those races, this is a nonsense position.

" an ability other races have to go far out of their way to give to cc units."

An ability that actually sucks for assault units. Because, you know, they can't assault. Back in 5th, DoA BA = Dead on Arrival, not Descent of Angels.

1. Terminators aren't durable? Dafaq, what do you want a 1+ save? They literally have the best save in the game. To boot they have a 5+ invuln, not the greatest invun but still decent. T5 would or 2 wounds would just step on Cents shoes again and they pay a pretty price for those benefits and fluffwise terms are just supposed to be marines in the best armour, not tougher beings.

2. Mobility can be compensated for by a Land Raider or Deep striking, so they aren't immobile like some slow CC units. Jack of all trades master of none, that's what marines are. If you want more specialized killing units maybe this isn't the codex for you, sounds like you would like eldar since they have units that are really good at 1 task and gak at others opposite of the marines. Again as for can't do damage.. Assault cannons have 4 shots str6 and rending, or they can take a 2 shot missle launcher. And they pump out a decent amount of shots at 24". And again if you are finding yourself unable to do damage with powerfists, then you are doing something wrong, that's 3 attacks on the charge at str8 ap2.

3. I don't understand what you mean. Other races have killy things that generally lack in some other area, if you are good at shooting generally you suck at melee, if your good at melee you generally have no offensive shooting. Marines don't fall into that style they are always active. If you want a good unit in a particular situation, you have a vindicator which can fully wipe a squad out. I don't understand your point here.

4. If you deepstrike in a position to be shot at by their entire army then you deserve to die, either deepstrike where only a portion can unload on you or when you have support so that everything isn't shooting just at you(and if they are you have some other threat not being shot at). It takes 90 bolter shots to kill 5 terminators, that's a lot to kill them. Sure they can hit you with ap2, but that's always a weakness of elite units not termies only plus you have a 5+ invuln for that.

"Terminators aren't durable? Dafaq, what do you want a 1+ save? They literally have the best save in the game."

Some posters keep posting this like some kind of mantra. Maybe they think repeating it will make it true. The only weapon category in which a terminator is more durable than a schmuck marine is AP 3. Most players don't bother with AP 3, because AP 2 is so much better. Their durability/pt is actually a complete joke; they are the opposite of durable.

"And they pump out a decent amount of shots at 2"

Not for their price. Single assault cannons are a joke, as are typhoon missile launchers. Their shooting can literally be ignored, just like a tactical squad. You'll never catch a good general with those powerfists. Not without forking about 250 pts for a raider. And that is just super not worth it.

" Land Raider or Deep striking"

So the choices are fork out 250 more pts, or suicide? What a great unit.

"I don't understand what you mean."

Terminators must be compared to their competition in Xeno books. Internal balance means nothing when you go up against units from other codices. External balance comes into play then.

"If you deepstrike in a position to be shot at by their entire army then you deserve to die,"

You act like your opponent doesn't see those terminators in reserve. You are also acting like your opponent doesn't get a turn. You can be forced into a choice of deep striking into a killing zone or deep striking so far away that you'll never get to use your expensive power fists. I do this to general foolish enough to deep strike terminators all the time.

" when you have support so that everything isn't shooting just at you"

You spent all your points on useless terminators No support is coming.

One more time - if terminators will not be comparable to wraiths (or DC with jumppacks, which is nearly the same, but somehow less hatred inducing), they will be garbage.

If you got problems in comparing with fast units, we have Flayed Ones, which are slow, with deep strike and same stats (and generally considered not so good).

3 dudes will give us:
3W with 4+ and RP (50% more survivable against bolters, 150% against lascannons)
12 AP5 shred attacks (50% better against terminators, 400%! better against guardsmen)
and this is not considering formations, which gives them bonuses like 4+ RP)

yea. olso FO got fear, infiltrate and strike at initiative

elotar wrote:
One more time - if terminators will not be comparable to wraiths (or DC with jumppacks, which is nearly the same, but somehow less hatred inducing), they will be garbage.

I pointed out earlier exactly how this relationship you're making doesn't hold true (difference between 3++ and 3+ armor, lack of T5, lower Strength, no Rending, permanent I5 with whipcoils rather than just on a charge, etc) . And once again, if you insist on holding the balance paradigm only to the most powerful and largely considered overpowered unit of its type, then nothing looks good and everything looks weak.

If you got problems in comparing with fast units, we have Flayed Ones, which are slow, with deep strike and same stats (and generally considered not so good).

3 dudes will give us:
3W with 4+ and RP (50% more survivable against bolters, 150% against lascannons)
12 AP5 shred attacks (50% better against terminators, 400%! better against guardsmen)
and this is not considering formations, which gives them bonuses like 4+ RP)

yea. olso FO got fear, infiltrate and strike at initiative

This is a probably a better point than in comparison to the Wraiths, and I feel the main issue here is that potential 4+ RP. That is really what brings these guys "over the line" so to speak in this equation. If it were the older version, it would be largely taken on a 5+ and you could prevent the roll entirely by wiping the unit before it could be attempted. Lets be fair, their ability to strike at initiative is somewhat misleading here, that Initiative is 2.

That said this is another unit you could make an argument for having been overbuffed, I can't think of any other footslogging infantry unit that has the same killing potential and resiliency for that few number of points, Even Ork Boyz can only really get an advantage over them in killing power on a charge point for point, and they're certainly not going to match the units resiliency.

"I pointed out earlier exactly how this relationship you're making doesn't hold true (difference between 3++ and 3+ armor, lack of T5, lower Strength, no Rending, permanent I5 with whipcoils rather than just on a charge, etc) . And once again, if you insist on holding the balance paradigm only to the most powerful and largely considered overpowered unit of its type, then nothing looks good and everything looks weak. "

I just let it slide, even though DC are not even remotely as good. But at least someone didn't. Here's the bottom line difference: if you shoot DC with plasma, they go away. Not so with Wraiths.

A hard look needs to be taken at Wraiths and based on that unit we can see the pitfalls of Tactical terminators.
-mobility
-survivability
-hitting power

Perhaps we should follow up this discussion with one about how every vehicle needs to be buffed to Wave Serpent levels.

 vipoid wrote:
Perhaps we should follow up this discussion with one about how every vehicle needs to be buffed to Wave Serpent levels.

If everything is the same level, then the game is fair. Any arbitrary power level will do, whether its high or low. Buffing to Wave Serpents is fine. Buffing to Wraiths is fine. Nerfing to tac squads or Rhinos is also fine. As long as it is consistent.

20pts for a 2+ save on a model is pretty standard and some codexes can't even get it. 10pts for a Power fist, and your left with 10pts for your profile which includes a buffed bolter.

Not sure what you really want with these guys. I will give you this though, they could use a little more thump for their iconic nature. The best way to do this without overpowering them would be to allow them to upgrade their storm bolters to combi weapons like a character in terminator armour can. It would be a quick easy buff giving them some more killing power at a cost while not giving them sustained shooting killing power to compete with Cents, however I think people would stop getting assault cannons or missles with this change.

" assault cannons or missles with this change."

Getting them is already a waste of time. This proposed change actually changes nothing.

"20pts for a 2+ save on a model is pretty standard and some codexes can't even get it. 10pts for a Power fist, and your left with 10pts for your profile which includes a buffed bolter. "

This is a case of the whole being LESS than the sum of its parts. I don't care what's standard, or what you think the individual parts cost. The model as a whole doesn't work in most metas. It's actually embarrassingly bad.

"Not sure what you really want with these guys"

For them not to be gathering dust on a shelf.

I find that a lot of people that complain about Terminators are the ones that don't know how to use them right.
If a fix is needed it sould be only one thing and thats it, make the invun save a 4++. They don't need to be droped in price, they don't need FnP, the sure as hell don't need to be T5 ans there is no need to bump up the WS or BS.
Thats it, a 4++, oh and it will go for all Terminator units ei; C:SM CSM C:I and C:GK.

Martel732 wrote:
And tacs are indeed useless. Couldn't help myself on that one.

3 people in BAO top 10 used massed tacticals. Like 40-50. One of them ended up with a 2-d place with ultramarines.

"are the ones that don't know how to use them right. "

So all those terminators I've punked over the last 20 years were all played by people who didn't know how to use them? Really? Why can't it just be a bad unit? Because it is.

 Ribon Fox wrote:
I find that a lot of people that complain about Terminators are the ones that don't know how to use them right.
If a fix is needed it sould be only one thing and thats it, make the invun save a 4++. They don't need to be droped in price, they don't need FnP, the sure as hell don't need to be T5 ans there is no need to bump up the WS or BS.
Thats it, a 4++, oh and it will go for all Terminator units ei; C:SM CSM C:I and C:GK.

Oh jesus Tzeench Terminators with a 3++?
Same with Sanctuary GK
scary as feth

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And tacs are indeed useless. Couldn't help myself on that one.

3 people in BAO top 10 used massed tacticals. Like 40-50. One of them ended up with a 2-d place with ultramarines.

Maybe a meta decision? I really have a hard time envisioning how those games went their way. I'll have to look up some bat reps for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Ribon Fox wrote:
I find that a lot of people that complain about Terminators are the ones that don't know how to use them right.
If a fix is needed it sould be only one thing and thats it, make the invun save a 4++. They don't need to be droped in price, they don't need FnP, the sure as hell don't need to be T5 ans there is no need to bump up the WS or BS.
Thats it, a 4++, oh and it will go for all Terminator units ei; C:SM CSM C:I and C:GK.

Oh jesus Tzeench Terminators with a 3++?
Same with Sanctuary GK
scary as feth

Really? They still have less toughness than a Wraith. And slower. And no RP. Super scary, I tell you.

The meta changes and evolves with time and editions. Currently this isn't a good time for TAC armies which marines excel at and terminators are good at. Were currently in a state where cookie cutting units that can wipe squads using low ap and or ignoring cover weapons are plentiful. When the meta shifts and TAC armies become relevant again such as in 5th, then marine armies and more specifically terminators will have their day.

We are currently living in the time of the cookie cutter, the time of the eldar and tau will fall. Just like it always happens the meta will shift and the power will fall elsewhere and who knows when that will happen. Maybe the necron codex will pull people off of the eldar/tau making room for another type of army and then maybe terminators will be good against that other type. The meta shifts slowly, the terminator isn't a bad unit it's just bad in the meta, it's time will come again. More harm is done buffing an ok unit rather than letting the meta develop.

Punisher wrote:
The meta changes and evolves with time and editions. Currently this isn't a good time for TAC armies which marines excel at and terminators are good at. Were currently in a state where cookie cutting units that can wipe squads using low ap and or ignoring cover weapons are plentiful. When the meta shifts and TAC armies become relevant again such as in 5th, then marine armies and more specifically terminators will have their day.

We are currently living in the time of the cookie cutter, the time of the eldar and tau will fall. Just like it always happens the meta will shift and the power will fall elsewhere and who knows when that will happen. Maybe the necron codex will pull people off of the eldar/tau making room for another type of army and then maybe terminators will be good against that other type. The meta shifts slowly, the terminator isn't a bad unit it's just bad in the meta, it's time will come again. More harm is done buffing an ok unit rather than letting the meta develop.

Loyalist terminators weren't good in 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, or 7th. If you say they were good in 4th, I'll believe you because I skipped that edition. Still, those are lousy stats. The terminator is an awful unit; it has terrible offense for its price and marginal defenses for its price.

It would still keep the balance of them being heavy troops, and will negate some of the AP2 weapons out there, its a very minor buff but one that would work.
Also it would be nice to see a termmie unit like Devistators, Fire support termmies, a max of 4 heavy waepons but still keeping the power fist (you still might need to cast fist at some one)

 Ribon Fox wrote:
It would still keep the balance of them being heavy troops, and will negate some of the AP2 weapons out there, its a very minor buff but one that would work.
Also it would be nice to see a termmie unit like Devistators, Fire support termmies, a max of 4 heavy waepons but still keeping the power fist (you still might need to cast fist at some one)

Doesn't fix them being less durable than schmuck marines against the weapons they are supposed to excel against. Guardmen troop choices lay waste to terminators. That's just so conceptually wrong.

Damage output of a terminator vs wraith. No charge and WS4 for simplicity's sake.

T4
5xWraith - 7.5 hits 6.25 wounds of which 1.25 rends
5xTermies - 5 hits 4.166 ap2 wounds

T5
5xWraith - 7.5 hits 5 wounds of which 1.25 rends
5xTermies - 5 hits 4.166 ap2 wounds

T6
5xWraith - 7.5 hits 3.75 wounds of which 1.25 rends
5xTermies - 5 hits 4.166 ap2 wounds

T7
5xWraith - 7.5 hits 2.5 wounds of which 1.25 rends
5xTermies - 5 hits 3.33 ap2 wounds

T8
5xWraith - 7.5 hits 1.25 wounds of which 1.25 rends
5xTermies - 5 hits 2.5 ap2 wounds

Numbers are a little better for each on the charge, and the termies can fire their storm bolters before they charge.

Wraiths are better against t4 and t5 unless ap matters. Generally since ap usually matters in assault, terminators do more damage in the assault. Their only problem is their reach is small, their damage output outpaces the "overpowered" unit your complaining about.

If you think termies are useless and terrible at assault then you must think all assault units that don't move 12" or have a assault transport(which termies do) are terrible.

"If you think termies are useless and terrible at assault then you must think all assault units that don't move 12" or have a assault transport(which termies do) are terrible."

Pretty much. I have to be picky; I'm often wading through a nonstop stream of scatterlasers and serpent shield fire. It starts on turn 1 and never ends unless I can somehow catch them in assault. Oh your LR? The Wraithknight just owned it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"If you think termies are useless and terrible at assault then you must think all assault units that don't move 12" or have a assault transport(which termies do) are terrible."

Pretty much. I have to be picky; I'm often wading through a nonstop stream of scatterlasers and serpent shield fire. It starts on turn 1 and never ends unless I can somehow catch them in assault. Oh your LR? The Wraithknight just owned it.

Terminators are much more vulnerable to small arms fire than Wraiths. That alone makes them almost unusable, because all those spare weapons that need a target will just get shot at your T4 W1 losers. The same weapons have little hope of making a dent in T5 W2 models that are moving twice as fast. Essentially, T4 W1, being slow, and having horrible offense makes terminators terrible.

It also doesn't help that your typical terminator squad is crippled after taking only 2-3 wounds.

Martel732 wrote:

Terminators are much more vulnerable to small arms fire than Wraiths. That alone makes them almost unusable, because all those spare weapons that need a target will just get shot at your T4 W1 losers. The same weapons have little hope of making a dent in T5 W2 models that are moving twice as fast. Essentially, T4 W1, being slow, and having horrible offense makes terminators terrible.

Oh I know wraiths are much better, but it's not due to their killing power just because they are fast and very durable. Your previous posts were saying how they deal no damage and I was just showing you a comparison against a very good melee unit and their damage out paces the very good melee unit.

Terminators problem is their mobility, so if your unable/unwilling to deep strike or take a Land Raider, then terminators aren't good for your meta since that's how they over come that weakness.

The methods CC units have to close gaps are deepstrike, transport, inherent mobility like a jump infantry, infiltrating, and out flanking. Terminators can do 2 of the 5 methods and if you have a character with out flanking then they can do 3 of the 5 methods to close ground for a CC unit. Since I doubt they'll sprout wings you can try finding a commander to outflank with them since you don't want to deepstrike or use a land raider.

Now that I think about it can't you take a storm raven? It would solve your mobility problem, you can assault out of it. It's a flyer so it's pretty hard to take out and it's cheaper than a land raider.

Still think

let them reroll failed saves at -1

PE (infantry)

Now a good unit, no changes to stat lines, doesn't break game, simple FAQ... certainly no more lethal than best units out there at cost.

" I was just showing you a comparison against a very good melee unit and their damage out paces the very good melee unit."

No one is going to let you get your terminators into HTH. They don't have a choice against Wraiths. I'm specifically speaking about terminator ranged damage, because no one is going to let you use those power fists on them.

"Terminators can do 2 of the 5 methods"

Again, a 250 pt overcosted vehicle is not a "fix", and neither is a suicide deep strike where they can't assault.

Putting units is Stormravens is ill-advised.

The fundamental problem with tacking on these hyper-expensive transports is that now there is no way for the single terminator squad to ever recoup the points investment you just dumped into them. Also, any deep strike/stormraven method gives you a turn 3 assault at the earliest. Unacceptable in many games. I've been assaulting turn 1 against so many pod lists.

Turn 3 assault is actually a decent assault timing. Considering you aren't going to get a turn 1 assault and turn 2 assaults are difficult. Needing you to deploy far up and be able to move 12". As for recouping the investment. I agree the Land Raider won't help other than granting the assault. But the Storm Raven brings plenty of firepower with it as well as solves the greatest weakness of terminators.

Martel732 wrote:
" I was just showing you a comparison against a very good melee unit and their damage out paces the very good melee unit."

No one is going to let you get your terminators into HTH. They don't have a choice against Wraiths. I'm specifically speaking about terminator ranged damage, because no one is going to let you use those power fists on them.

"Terminators can do 2 of the 5 methods"

Again, a 250 pt overcosted vehicle is not a "fix", and neither is a suicide deep strike where they can't assault.

Putting units is Stormravens is ill-advised.

The fundamental problem with tacking on these hyper-expensive transports is that now there is no way for the single terminator squad to ever recoup the points investment you just dumped into them. Also, any deep strike/stormraven method gives you a turn 3 assault at the earliest. Unacceptable in many games. I've been assaulting turn 1 against so many pod lists.

Well putting a unit that can already deep strike is kinda useless - they basically HAVE to deep strike out of it the turn they come out or risk being instagibbed by str 9 ap 2 auto hits on the whole unit. lol. Why do you humor the dude? terminators are arguably the worst units in the game per their cost.

Punisher wrote:
Turn 3 assault is actually a decent assault timing. Considering you aren't going to get a turn 1 assault and turn 2 assaults are difficult. Needing you to deploy far up and be able to move 12". As for recouping the investment. I agree the Land Raider won't help other than granting the assault. But the Storm Raven brings plenty of firepower with it as well as solves the greatest weakness of terminators.

Yeah, and can kill your entire squad as well as well. The Stormraven is a failure as a transport.

Turn 3 assault is disastrous when you need turn 1 assaults. Turn 1 assaults are trivial when a drop list just dropped on you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" I was just showing you a comparison against a very good melee unit and their damage out paces the very good melee unit."

No one is going to let you get your terminators into HTH. They don't have a choice against Wraiths. I'm specifically speaking about terminator ranged damage, because no one is going to let you use those power fists on them.

"Terminators can do 2 of the 5 methods"

Again, a 250 pt overcosted vehicle is not a "fix", and neither is a suicide deep strike where they can't assault.

Putting units is Stormravens is ill-advised.

The fundamental problem with tacking on these hyper-expensive transports is that now there is no way for the single terminator squad to ever recoup the points investment you just dumped into them. Also, any deep strike/stormraven method gives you a turn 3 assault at the earliest. Unacceptable in many games. I've been assaulting turn 1 against so many pod lists.

Well putting a unit that can already deep strike is kinda useless - they basically HAVE to deep strike out of it the turn they come out or risk being instagibbed by str 9 ap 2 auto hits on the whole unit. lol. Why do you humor the dude? terminators are arguably the worst units in the game per their cost.

Maybe a reader might learn something and never field terminators if they want to be even semi-competitive.