Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello there!
I have tried finding out something new with my space marines list. This is my go at something that might be good in a tournament envoiroment.

We start with a pretty standard HQ
Chaos Lord 150pt
Mon, LcPf combo, Sigil of corruption.

As troops we go with something true and tested.

5 Plague Marines 169 pt
1 meltagun, rest have complete basic loadout.
1 Rhino

5 Plague Marines 169 pt
1 Meltagun, rest have complete basic loadout.
1 rhino.

As fast attack we have some birds.
1 Heldrake with Baleflamer 170 pt
1 Heldrake with Baleflamer 170 pt

Heavysupport we have a single forgefiend
1 forgefiend with 2 hades autocannons. 175 pt

To round the whole thing of, we have a Murderpack formation.
5 helbrutes all with melta gun and PF. 500 pt

total: 1498
With this list, your whole army is AV based. You have some real sturdy marines to get objektives even after their transport is destroyd. There are many threats in this list. the birds can hurt anything short of a Land Raider. Helbrutes are good vs everything.

There are some questions, should i short the Lord and use the points on giving brutes Flamers? Should i strive for 1 bird, and 2 forgefiend? will the meltaguns on the Marines ever be used?

To round evrything of, my resoning why melta before plasma.
Melta is DANGEROUS to AV targets, and it will stil hurt Toughnes targets.
Melta will not kill your troops.

your comment is appricianted.

How about getting a sorcerer and divination?

Foreboding would make them pretty tough against shooting.
Prescience would let them hit with those meltas,
If you get scriers gaze, you can at least get your birds when you want them.

I think maybe you have a bit too few units. How about dropping the LC and one of the rhinos and get a troop of cultists for 50 points? Just to babysit the home objective?

I'd def take at least one flamer with the helbrutes. Think about tyranid hordes, etc.

I'd look at dropping one of the Heldrakes and the Forgefiend. Put the Lord on a bike and give him some Nurgle Spawn as an entourage, and get a Maulerfiend.

I am not a fan of that loadout for your Murderpack. That is a lot of potential ground you have to cover before being in range of your meltas. I instead recommend that you downgrade it to the Mayhempack (heavy flamers recommended). With the spare points, you can add in a bike for your lord and spawn escort, as already suggested. Your units should be resilient enough to last until your reserves drop in.

I think you have too few helbrutes.

How about:
Warpsmith 110pts

Troops
5 CS Marines+pg 90pts
5 CS Marines+pg 90pts

Fast Attack
Heldrake 175pts

Heavy support
2 Obliterators 140pts

Formation Helfist Murderpack 5 helbrutes with 5 twinlinked lascannons 600pts

Formation Mayhem pack
3 helbrutes



With rerolls on those TL LC, you will hit 4-5 times each turn as you walk towards your enemy, Not much short of a landraider that will survive that.

You definetly need bike and spawn for the lord. I would also pick up bel'kor if you are running the murderpack (for invisibility).

170 points PFLC lord on bike
180 points for 5 nurgle spawn
350 points for belkor
500 points for murderpack

That leaves the 200 points for 4 squads of cultists. Bel'kor can punch out knights (ideally knock them down a HP ot two with meltas first).

Thanks for reply
IM scared of casters, they seem so random to me. But maybe i have to give belakor a try.

If the Murderpack formation had twin linked Lascannons? that gives me 5 rerolleble shots each turn. 48" range. That should be able to dent pretty much anything. And my opposition will have to use alota resources on taking down the Murderpack.

Don't forget your plague marines can take two specials at minimum squad size.

heavybtakingowa wrote:
Thanks for reply
IM scared of casters, they seem so random to me. But maybe i have to give belakor a try.

If the Murderpack formation had twin linked Lascannons? that gives me 5 rerolleble shots each turn. 48" range. That should be able to dent pretty much anything. And my opposition will have to use alota resources on taking down the Murderpack.

Lascannon is what 20 points? so murderpack is 600 points with 5 TL lascannons

Trilas predator costs ~150 points.

So you could have 4 trilas preds for the price of the murderpack, that's 4 twin-linked LC and 8 sponson LC. It has 13 front armour and can target different enemy units. And Trilas preds aren't exactly amazing anyway.

The reason to run the murderpack is because you love helbrutes (rather than because it is a great formation - because it's not). So given that you love the murderpack, you have to ask yourself what the best way to make use of them is? Well the big difference vs regular helbrutes is that they are a squadron (also one of them gets a 5++ and you get to pick enrage). How to capitalize on a squadron of low ranged damage, low AV walkers? Make them invisible and run them every turn till you can multicharge the enemy line.

If you really feel like going all out throw in a Balestar sorc (he should drive around on a bike with nurgle spawn - and possibly a biker nurgle lord too). He can forewarning the spawn/helbrutes and prescience the murderpack for when they want to TL multimelta a landraider then murder the terminators inside them.

Psychic powers are random and unreliable but 5 AV 12 models is way more unreliable (A Tau Firebase Support Cadre will wreck these guys in like 2 turns of firing without invisibility) .

The TL LC upgrade on Helbrutes is 25 points... I think the Murderpack is great especially for the challenge on the leader.

If taking a murderpack I see there are two ways to do so - either melee or stand-off.

If going for stand-off, twI'd actually suggest reaper autocannons and 4 missile launchers (keep a melee weapon - ideally a scourge - on the champion) - this way, you can afford to indulge in the odd fire frenzy because you don't mind putting autocannon shells and frag missiles into infantry.

I'll be honest, I think the Mayhem Pack is a better formation - deep striking walkers en masse is a scary thing to encounter!

I would add lascannons [and heavy flamers] to my Murderpack every time I run them, if the points allowed. Expensive, but it is the ultimate configuration, as they can tackle essentially everything with AP2 attacks in shooting and melee, and flame hordes. Vehicles? No sweat. Termies? Blow them to bits. Flyers? twin-linked str 9 is bound to hit at some point, but forcing a jink is usually your reward.
Plus, if one gets immobilized early in your advance, you can break him off from the formation and have a solid firing platform (if he draws fire, all the better for the rest of your army).
So a resounding 'yes' from me in regards to LC for your Murderpack.

 Thantos Kalev wrote:
I would add lascannons [and heavy flamers] to my Murderpack every time I run them, if the points allowed. Expensive, but it is the ultimate configuration, as they can tackle essentially everything with AP2 attacks in shooting and melee, and flame hordes. Vehicles? No sweat. Termies? Blow them to bits. Flyers? twin-linked str 9 is bound to hit at some point, but forcing a jink is usually your reward.
Plus, if one gets immobilized early in your advance, you can break him off from the formation and have a solid firing platform (if he draws fire, all the better for the rest of your army).
So a resounding 'yes' from me in regards to LC for your Murderpack.

5 helbrutes with TL LC = 4.444 hits = 3 pen/glance on AV 12 = 1.5 pen/glance vs vehicle in ruins or with Jink

For a 620+ point unit, taking 2 turns to destroy a Ghost Ark or Waveserpent is pretty rubbish. I'd rather run the extra 3" closer and pay 100 less points.

wtnind wrote:

 Thantos Kalev wrote:
I would add lascannons [and heavy flamers] to my Murderpack every time I run them, if the points allowed. Expensive, but it is the ultimate configuration, as they can tackle essentially everything with AP2 attacks in shooting and melee, and flame hordes. Vehicles? No sweat. Termies? Blow them to bits. Flyers? twin-linked str 9 is bound to hit at some point, but forcing a jink is usually your reward.
Plus, if one gets immobilized early in your advance, you can break him off from the formation and have a solid firing platform (if he draws fire, all the better for the rest of your army).
So a resounding 'yes' from me in regards to LC for your Murderpack.

5 helbrutes with TL LC = 4.444 hits = 3 pen/glance on AV 12 = 1.5 pen/glance vs vehicle in ruins or with Jink

For a 620+ point unit, taking 2 turns to destroy a Ghost Ark or Waveserpent is pretty rubbish. I'd rather run the extra 3" closer and pay 100 less points.

I agree that the LC are definitely pricey, but your recommended configuration also requires a Balestar-wielding sorcerer (150 pts), plus some sort of babysitting retinue (let's say a 50 point squad of cultists, nevermind that neither is fearless): That is roughly 700 points for five 24" melta shots (note that you first have to close the distance before you can even fire, and you really need to be within 12" in order to take advantage of melta). Let's see: that is 2.5 hits on AV12, with 1.3 penetrating hits after cover/jink save, with 60% of destroying one vehicle(compared to 39% for the LC Murderpack) . With prescience (not taking into account perils), your chances of blowing up said vehicle jump to around 75%. So, for an additional 200-or-so points, your chances of wrecking that vehicle go up about 40%. Not bad at all, but is it worth the additional cost (and HQ slot)? If you fail to get off prescience (especially early in the game), your are left with a unit that could be out of range and not able to hit much. The LC makes you an instant threat, regardless of distance. As such, I will save the Melta for the Mayhempack, where range not much of a concern. Of course, your mileage may vary.

 Thantos Kalev wrote:

I agree that the LC are definitely pricey, but your recommended configuration also requires a Balestar-wielding sorcerer (150 pts), plus some sort of babysitting retinue (let's say a 50 point squad of cultists, nevermind that neither is fearless): That is roughly 700 points for five 24" melta shots (note that you first have to close the distance before you can even fire, and you really need to be within 12" in order to take advantage of melta). Let's see: that is 2.5 hits on AV12, with 1.3 penetrating hits after cover/jink save, with 60% of destroying one vehicle(compared to 39% for the LC Murderpack) . With prescience (not taking into account perils), your chances of blowing up said vehicle jump to around 75%. So, for an additional 200-or-so points, your chances of wrecking that vehicle go up about 40%. Not bad at all, but is it worth the additional cost (and HQ slot)? If you fail to get off prescience (especially early in the game), your are left with a unit that could be out of range and not able to hit much. The LC makes you an instant threat, regardless of distance. As such, I will save the Melta for the Mayhempack, where range not much of a concern. Of course, your mileage may vary.

I would run the sorcerer on a bike with 5 nurgle spawn and a nurgle biker lord PF/LC. That way the sorcerer has something worthwhile to do (force killing dreadknights etc) and he has a use for rolls such as Precognition. In addition it gives you more melee threats and if you roll Forewarning you can choose whether to put it on the spawn or the brutes depending on tactical situation.

I'd still run Bel'kor though (as an allied daemons HQ). If you are running 500 points of helbrutes they need to have some kind of staying power.

Thanks for all the replys.

I would think 5 Helbrutes had some proper staying power. Compeared to big walkers, i get 15 wounds, with av12. Reason im thinking TL LS is the threat from the get go. And they are still scary in CC.

heavybtakingowa wrote:
Thanks for all the replys.

I would think 5 Helbrutes had some proper staying power. Compeared to big walkers, i get 15 wounds, with av12. Reason im thinking TL LS is the threat from the get go. And they are still scary in CC.

The one major drawback for a vehicle squadron is that wounds pass down the squadron. So, if 3 melta hits get through, and the first shot blows up the first brute, the other shots pass down to the next brute, etc. That being said, I had an armless brute in one game that I moved to the front of my pack and became a sandbag for the remaining. What I am getting at: you could leave 2 of them with the default MM and just stick them in the front of the pack, saving 50 points and still having some good, ranged firepower. Maybe the best of both worlds, in regards to points and firepower. I have yet to try this, but after reading wtnind's posts, it sounds like a good alternative.

There are so many options, with neither being the elixir of perfection. I reckon that is why I enjoy playing the brutes.