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Hey everyone,

I was just researching a little bit and found a YouTube comment (so very reliable lol) saying that you can't use Hammerhand AND force phsycic powers. I don't want to cheat by accident so I'm looking franticly in my codex trying to find that in black and white can anyone help me either find a page that will prove this statement or disprove it? Thanks guys the hunt is on!

2500

You used to not be able to because your mastery level limited how many times you could cast a turn. Now you are only limited by the number of warp charges and the number of powers you know. The book doesn't say your ML = number of powers you can cast a turn.

So a squad of GKTs can now use warp charges to cast both Hammerhand and Force if you have enough to do it.

The psychic rules are so obtusely worded that most people don't actually really know how they work, they just think they do.

Yeah, the page to prove it one way or another doesn't exist. And since the rule does not exist anymore saying you can't cast more powers than your level, there is no restriction. The burden of proof is on people saying you are unable to do so and all you have do is ask them to show you that rule.

I did come across this in a tournament FAQ on Frontline gaming though, so if this is for tournaments, you might have to ask the people running it on their own personal FAQ but those are just house rules when all is said and done.

Thanks guys, no it's not for a tournament I just didn't want to be a rule bender Ya know especially cause I killed the crap out of a swarm lord with a force weapon and hammer hand so if I had done it wrong I would have felt a little bad.

No? In the rulebook it says a caster can only cast powers equal to his Mastery level.

 KingCorpus wrote:
No? In the rulebook it says a caster can only cast powers equal to his Mastery level.

Where at?

 KingCorpus wrote:
No? In the rulebook it says a caster can only cast powers equal to his Mastery level.

If you can find a page number for that exact phrase, itll be like finding a unicorn

 KingCorpus wrote:
No? In the rulebook it says a caster can only cast powers equal to his Mastery level.

No, it doesn't.

It says that the number of powers he can cast depends on his Mastery Level, but fails to explain what that dependancy is.

Later in the section, it goes on to explain that a psyker can continue casting powers until he runs out of Warp Charges.


The common theory is that the introduction is just a copy-paste from 6th edition (as the wording is identical) that they didn't think through.

The number of powers a Psyker knows is loosely based on the Psyker's mastery level, yet the Psyker can attempt to cast every power they know once each as long as they have Warp Charges to burn.

Example: a PML3 Psyker not only knows 3 powers rolled for from the different schools they have access to, they also have Force if equipped with a Force weapon, and the Primis power if all 3 of their rolls are from the same school, netting the Psyker 5 powers at PML3. A similar PML3 GK Librarian with Liber and Warlord trait can potentially have 7 powers, all of which can be attempted once each Psychic phase.

SJ

 insaniak wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
No? In the rulebook it says a caster can only cast powers equal to his Mastery level.

No, it doesn't.

It says that the number of powers he can cast depends on his Mastery Level, but fails to explain what that dependancy is.

Later in the section, it goes on to explain that a psyker can continue casting powers until he runs out of Warp Charges.


The common theory is that the introduction is just a copy-paste from 6th edition (as the wording is identical) that they didn't think through.

Depends on his mastery level. It says right there what the dependency is... Depend = be controlled or determined by.

Yes it says cast until you run out of warp charges, and also depends on your ML. Doesn't matter how many warp charges you got from other psykers in your army, the lvl 1 psyker can only cast 1 ability.

 KingCorpus wrote:
Depends on his mastery level. It says right there what the dependency is... Depend = be controlled or determined by.

The score a model needs to hit with a shooting attack depends on their BS. It is not equal to their BS.


'Depends on' does not mean 'equals'.

 insaniak wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
Depends on his mastery level. It says right there what the dependency is... Depend = be controlled or determined by.

The score a model needs to hit with a shooting attack depends on their BS. It is not equal to their BS.


'Depends on' does not mean 'equals'.

Well...psychic phase, and shooting are two different things. That's why in the game they broke it down into two different phases of a players turn. You can't compare it.

The meaning of a word doesn't change just because you're in a different section of the book.

The phase is irrelevant. 'Depends on' isn't going to mean 'equals' in any phase, unless it is actually defined as such.

It doesn't say "The score needed" Like it does for the shooting though.

The number of powers a psyker can cast depends on his mastery level. OK, thats what it says correct?

The score a model needs to hit with a shooting attack depends on their BS. It is not equal to their BS.

Score depends on BS skill, hence the roll on a dice needed. The number of powers a psyker can cast depends on his ML...1,2,3,4..

Comparing these two aren't the same. The BS one is speaking of what you need to hit, not how many times you can shoot. The psyker one explains how many times you can cast a power.

You're missing the point.

I wasn't suggesting that the two were identical situations. I was using a different example to illustrate the fact that 'depends on' doesn't automatically mean 'equals'. Nothing more.

The statement in the psychic rules is meaningless without some sort of clarification as to how the one depends on the other.

Ahhh...I got you. So it can go either way from how they tend to describe things in other parts of the book.

WTB FAQ.

Not 'how they tend to desceibe things in other parts of the book', just 'how the word works'.

eg: Your height depends on your age.
Your fitness depends on how much you exercise.
Your name depends on what your parents like.

All true statements, but we don't have any formula from getting from the dependency to the dependent. Is my height my age in feet? centimeters? Maybe it is age squared, or age + 10?

The same with mastery levels -> how many powers you can cast. Here's a list of formulas where the number of powers you can manifest is dependent upon your mastery level:
PM = ML+10
PM = ML*5
PM = 3-ML
PM = is it Tuesday & Mastery level 3 then 1 else 0;

The just because the number of powers manifested is dependent upon your mastery level does not mean that it is equal.


HOWEVER
it is common to interpret this as being equal, and you may find that tournament FAQ's rule this as being equal (as is the case in my area)

I know, but the definition of -depends- is "Determined by" which is why I believe tournies rule it that way, and why I also believe it is ruled that way.

I see your point though, and it makes sense. Just wish there was more clarification.

 KingCorpus wrote:
I know, but the definition of -depends- is "Determined by" which is why I believe tournies rule it that way, and why I also believe it is ruled that way.

The main reason it is ruled that way is that some people feel that without any other clarification on just what the dependancy is, going the 1:1 route is the fairest option based on how it worked in the previous edition.

The alternate viewpoint is, as I mentioned, that it's an errant copy-paste, is meaningless in the current edition, and should be ignored.

I'll just say that if a psyker can only cast as many powers as his mastery level, then the Librarius Conclave DA get is absolutely idiotic then.

When I use the conclave, it's possible for one of my librarians to know.... I think 21 powers? You're telling me that even though he knows that many powers he can only cast a max of 3?

How many more than that are you realically going to cast in one turn anyway?

He might not cast more than 3, but my GKs can easily cast more than their Mastery Level because we generate a billion warp charges each turn.

RAI, its clearly meant to just be how ever many you can cast using available warp charges. Especially since just about every psyker in the game will know more powers than his mastery level because almost all of them have force weapons and roll on a table, meaning 3 is the bare minimum.

 insaniak wrote:
How many more than that are you realically going to cast in one turn anyway?

That example was mostly exaggeration, having that many psykers would take up half an army. Most of the time I just run Ezekiel and two librarians, one of them a level 2 and the other a 1, and use the level one to do the casting so Ezekiel won't take perils or have to get too exposed to cast. In that case, I usually have a level 1 try to cast 4 or 5, depending on what powers I have that game. 6 base charges, plus up to 6 from the roll, then I usually throw 2 dice per power with the hopes of casting as many powers as possible, unless it's something crazy like psychic maelstrom that needs to go off.

The dependency could easily be related to ML due to the number of dice you can have. The fact that it specifically states to cast Powers until you run out of dice IMO supports that ad the case.

The issue is that the sentence with "Depends" doesn't state what the dependency actually is.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
The issue is that the sentence with "Depends" doesn't state what the dependency actually is.

Yes it does, it says it "depends" on the Psyker's "Mastery level". The problem is that the average Gamer over thinks what the means, instead of continuing to read the rest of the rule to gain context. Per the ret of the rules, a Psyker knows a number of powers that equal a minimum of the Psyker's a Mastery level. A minimum. With 7th, a PML1 Psyker knows a minimum of 2 powers (one of the table + Primis), and might know Force if the Psyker has a Force weapon (upto 3 powers now), might have wargear that adds another power (such as the Liber Daemonica), and might have a trait that grants an additional power. This means a PML1 Psyker could potentially know 4 or more powers.

Now, if its just that Psyker in the army, and it's the Psyker's turn to cast powers, the Psyker could have 2-7 Warp Charges depending on die roll. Per the rules, that Psyker can attempt to cast each of those powers once per Psychic phase.

So when it says the number of powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on the Psyker's Mastery level, it is both telling the truth and leading the over-thinkers astray. Yay, Geedub.

SJ

 Grey Templar wrote:
He might not cast more than 3, but my GKs can easily cast more than their Mastery Level because we generate a billion warp charges each turn.

RAI, its clearly meant to just be how ever many you can cast using available warp charges. Especially since just about every psyker in the game will know more powers than his mastery level because almost all of them have force weapons and roll on a table, meaning 3 is the bare minimum.

The minimum is going to be 2 barring a special rule on a unit. Got love the Broodlord, I think nids are the only psychers with no way to get a force weapon.

Mastery level= D6 is only to determine your warp charge pool.

its one of the reasons they reiterate that everyone who has a force weapon knows the force rule and also why the primaris is automatically known when you roll for all spells in a discipline.

if you have a lvl 1 psyker, he will roll for one spell, also learn the primaris and have force. you then roll a D6 and can end up with 7 warp charge points. they can be used as you like.

i think in 6th and prior, if you were a lvl 1 psyker and you rolled on a 2 warp charge spell you could re-roll it because you couldnt cast it. now anyone can cast any spell as long as you have enough warp charge points in your pool. this is how a pink horror can continuously keep casting summon.

The Psychic rules in the rulebook says (in bold):

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."


And in the introduction for the rulebook it says:

"As you read through the rules, you will notice some of the text is bold, like this. This highlights the most important elements of the rule in question…"


The thing is, if that first sentence wasn't included to say that a psyker can only use a number of psychic powers equal to its mastery level each turn, then the sentence is not only not 'the most important element of the rule in question' but it literally serves no purpose. If you remove that sentence from the rulebook, then none of the rules change and everything works exactly the same.

So the only way this is something that is worthy of being bolded is if the sentence itself actually has some meaning as a rule, which means that it has to be an incredibly poorly worded attempt to say that psykers cannot attempt to cast more powers than their mastery level each turn.

Not saying this is RAW (it obviously isn't), but it is pretty blatantly RAI, based on the fact that they took the time to bold the sentence, which is pointless if the sentence means literally nothing.