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 yakface wrote:
... but it is pretty blatantly RAI, based on the fact that they took the time to bold the sentence, which is pointless if the sentence means literally nothing.

Unless you go with the idea that the intro was just a copy-paste from 6th edition that they didn't think through

 insaniak wrote:

Unless you go with the idea that the intro was just a copy-paste from 6th edition that they didn't think through

That's a fair point except that someone took the time to actually bold that sentence on purpose to indicate that it is supposed to be something of importance to read, when, if you assume that the sentence doesn't mean psykers are restricted to casting a number of powers equal to their mastery level, then the opposite is true (the sentence literally has no purpose).

In the Section Manifesting Psychic Powers, the first paragraph states that you can, after casting a powers, try to cast another power it knows or switch to another unit to cast a power they know. You are allowed to keep casting with the first unit or any other as long as you have the Warp Charges and you don't try to cast the same power with the same unit. It is very clear. All of this is under the Psychic Phase section of the rule book, and is better written than my paraphrasing here.

 yakface wrote:

That's a fair point except that someone took the time to actually bold that sentence on purpose to indicate that it is supposed to be something of importance to read, when, if you assume that the sentence doesn't mean psykers are restricted to casting a number of powers equal to their mastery level, then the opposite is true (the sentence literally has no purpose).

Yeah, I honestly don't know what they were going for here. The rest of the section really reads like they had every intention of allowing psykers to cast as much as they had charges for. When they introduce psykers with the idea that most psykers will be Level 1, that doesn't really make a lot of sense.

The number of powers a psyker can cast is dependent on ML. I can only generate a certain number of powers because of my ML; therefore, i am limited. I can only cast those powers.

azactaylor wrote:
The number of powers a psyker can cast is dependent on ML. I can only generate a certain number of powers because of my ML; therefore, i am limited. I can only cast those powers.

With this logic you can never cast Force, powers granted by Focus/Chaos Focus or powers listed in your profile/powers given by items.

This is a pain, as a GK player I've always played that I can cast until I am out of WC's so my termies would throw down hammerhand and force...I feel bad If I've been doing this wrong.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
This is a pain, as a GK player I've always played that I can cast until I am out of WC's so my termies would throw down hammerhand and force...I feel bad If I've been doing this wrong.

While there are plenty of forum discussions about this point, I have yet to meet anyone who actually plays it limiting the powers to the mastery level.

 Stephanius wrote:

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
This is a pain, as a GK player I've always played that I can cast until I am out of WC's so my termies would throw down hammerhand and force...I feel bad If I've been doing this wrong.

While there are plenty of forum discussions about this point, I have yet to meet anyone who actually plays it limiting the powers to the mastery level.

At the very least, anyone who plays in a Frontline Gaming event (Bay Area Open, Las Vegas Open, etc) or at Adepticon is going to have to play this way (as it is ruled that way in their FAQs).

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level....A Psyker’s entry will usually state how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level....no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

I fail to see how those statements don't present a consistent message, IMHO that is.

 yakface wrote:
At the very least, anyone who plays in a Frontline Gaming event (Bay Area Open, Las Vegas Open, etc) or at Adepticon is going to have to play this way (as it is ruled that way in their FAQs).

Yeah, quote a lot of tournaments appear to have gone with that interpretation.

 insaniak wrote:

 yakface wrote:
At the very least, anyone who plays in a Frontline Gaming event (Bay Area Open, Las Vegas Open, etc) or at Adepticon is going to have to play this way (as it is ruled that way in their FAQs).

Yeah, quote a lot of tournaments appear to have gone with that interpretation.

Yea they've gone with the "You can cast as many powers as you have dice for them" stance.

Though the East coast of the US and the West coast differ on the "Psyker unit not manifesting the same power" bit

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Yea they've gone with the "You can cast as many powers as you have dice for them" stance.

Though the East coast of the US and the West coast differ on the "Psyker unit not manifesting the same power" bit

No, I just quoted two major event types that do not allow psykers to cast more powers than their mastery level (Adepticon and Frontline).

And yes, there is definitely a split in many events in the US on whether multiple psykers in a single unit are allowed to cast the same power or not (Adepticon & Frontline = no, NOVA = yes).

Hmm was not aware Frontline did that, thought their batreps had units casting more than their mastery level

 insaniak wrote:

 yakface wrote:
At the very least, anyone who plays in a Frontline Gaming event (Bay Area Open, Las Vegas Open, etc) or at Adepticon is going to have to play this way (as it is ruled that way in their FAQs).

Yeah, quote a lot of tournaments appear to have gone with that interpretation.

Given that most of these tournaments are trying to play 6th Ed it is unsurprising that they have come up with a bizarre FAQ to try and return yet another part of the rules to their comfort zone of how it worked in 6th. I mean how many tournaments are actually playing 7th in all its glory?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Given that most of these tournaments are trying to play 6th Ed it is unsurprising that they have come up with a bizarre FAQ to try and return yet another part of the rules to their comfort zone of how it worked in 6th. I mean how many tournaments are actually playing 7th in all its glory?

The question was: does anyone play the game this way (with psykers not being able to cast more than their mastery level)? Some people were saying no, and I was pointing out that there are quite a few major tournaments that are in fact playing it that way.

This is not a 6th edition vs. 7th edition issue. As I pointed out, this is not a case of RAW being ignored because there is a major inconsistency in the rulebook in that a sentence that is bolded (thereby denoting it as an incredibly important rule) is being claimed to be essentially meaningless (its removal from the rulebook would change literally nothing).

So this is a grey area of the rules that players need to decide upon how they want to play, which in a tournament environment falls into the TOs discretion/tournament FAQ.

I disagree this is anything like a grey area in the rules. We agree the RaW is clear. Yes the section is bolded, it doesn't have specific meaning as written. It says that the number of powers you can manifest depends on your mastery level, it then goes on to explain how that dependency works (not a direct dependency but ML determines number of power and dice which directly control how many powers you can mmanifest in a turn).

Some people want this to be a grey area (like those who want you to roll to hit with Psychic Shriek) women people want too go back to a 6th Ed comfort zone where player agency had little impact on result beyond army building. Those people want ML=number of powers you can manifest. The rulebook disagrees with them.

The very fact that it comes up so often in discussion suggests that a reasonable number of players think it's a grey area, even if you don't...

 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree this is anything like a grey area in the rules. We agree the RaW is clear. Yes the section is bolded, it doesn't have specific meaning as written. It says that the number of powers you can manifest depends on your mastery level, it then goes on to explain how that dependency works (not a direct dependency but ML determines number of power and dice which directly control how many powers you can mmanifest in a turn).

Some people want this to be a grey area (like those who want you to roll to hit with Psychic Shriek) women people want too go back to a 6th Ed comfort zone where player agency had little impact on result beyond army building. Those people want ML=number of powers you can manifest. The rulebook disagrees with them.

Well, you and I disagree on what 'RAW' ultimately means.

To me, rules need to be clear to players reading them to be considered 'RAW'. So while you or I can have an opinion on what the RAW are in any given instance, if the majority of other people don't necessarily get the same meaning out of what the written rules say, for whatever reason, then those rules IMHO cannot be played 'RAW' because they tell different people different things.

The rules are not clear on this matter, because they have a bolded sentence, which the rulebook also states are the most important part of the rules, which is being claimed to be an essentially meaningless sentence. Therefore, by the very definition the rulebook has already laid out this is not a case where anyone can claim that there is 'clear RAW'.

Either there was a typographical error in bolding that sentence (as it is not supposed to be an important rule) or they meant for the rule to say what it implies (that psykers cannot cast more powers than their mastery level).

Regardless of which way it is supposed to be, there is an error of some sort and therefore it is not clear.

I see that you've decided that people who disagree with your opinion are those that want to go back to 6th edition, but I assure you that is a figment of your imagination that you're putting onto others. You can no more tell what or why people want things than you can see into the future (and I'm assuming that you're not prescient).

Just because people want an interpretation to have a validity doesn't mean it does. Just because people frequently discuss an issue doesn't mean it is a grey area, it could just be that one side has a vested interest in their interpretation so will argue it regardless of any validity. This is one of those examples.

It never ceases to amaze me that people believe the rulebook assumes you will make up a whole raft of rules to make a rule do something out of context.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yakface you are arguing RaI not RaW there (which is fine and a more useful way to spend time). RaW that sentence tells us that the number of powers depends on your mastery level. It does not tell us that dependency is a one to one nor does it even imply that. You have assumed that it is talking about a 1 to 1 ratio. I read that Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers trained to be perfect warriors and I see a Veteran Guardsman is Bs4 so I assume a marine is Bs5, I can't claim my assumption is RaW. Even if lots of other people agree they assume a Space Marine is a better shot that a Veteran guardsman.

Just because a rule is bolded doesn't not mean you have carte Blanche to make up your own rule and call it RaW just so the bolded sentence has more significance. That whole paragraph is bereft on any actual meaningful rules, so the bolded part of what is effectively a fluff paragraph can be the most important part of that paragraph. A paragraph that is simply spelling out Higher Mastery Level = more powerful psyker = can manifest more powers (as opposed to manifesting more powerful powers).

Another invalid interpretation you could argue in the same vein as yours is that ML = number of times you can manifest each power. Sure the rules go on to tell you that you can only manifest each power once but we can ignore that as this rule is clearly hinting that you can manifest a power once for each Mastery Level. Much like your interpretation means we ignore the rules of keep manifesting until we run out of dice or powers, this interpretation ignores the restriction on manifesting the same power twice.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yakface you are arguing RaI not RaW there (which is fine and a more useful way to spend time). RaW that sentence tells us that the number of powers depends on your mastery level. It does not tell us that dependency is a one to one nor does it even imply that. You have assumed that it is talking about a 1 to 1 ratio. I read that Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers trained to be perfect warriors and I see a Veteran Guardsman is Bs4 so I assume a marine is Bs5, I can't claim my assumption is RaW. Even if lots of other people agree they assume a Space Marine is a better shot that a Veteran guardsman.

Just because a rule is bolded doesn't not mean you have carte Blanche to make up your own rule and call it RaW just so the bolded sentence has more significance. That whole paragraph is bereft on any actual meaningful rules, so the bolded part of what is effectively a fluff paragraph can be the most important part of that paragraph. A paragraph that is simply spelling out Higher Mastery Level = more powerful psyker = can manifest more powers (as opposed to manifesting more powerful powers).

Another invalid interpretation you could argue in the same vein as yours is that ML = number of times you can manifest each power. Sure the rules go on to tell you that you can only manifest each power once but we can ignore that as this rule is clearly hinting that you can manifest a power once for each Mastery Level. Much like your interpretation means we ignore the rules of keep manifesting until we run out of dice or powers, this interpretation ignores the restriction on manifesting the same power twice.

And again, the RULES themselves say that bolded sections of the text are the most important RULES. So that's the whole point that it is a grey area. They don't bold 'fluff' to highlight fluff. They bold the most important parts of the rules that are supposed to be absolutely crucial to the rules.

Yet you're trying to claim that the sentence is effectively meaningless, in that if you interpret it like you claim, then removing it from the rules would literally change nothing at all.

It cannot be both things at once. It cannot be an incredibly important rule that people need to pay attention to and at the same time completely meaningless. Therefore there is clearly a typo there, either something was bolded that shouldn't have been, or they screwed up the wording of the sentence so it doesn't say what they thought it did.

Either way, it is a GREY AREA and therefore there is no clear way to play it that most people could easily agree on.

So you would be happy call my interpretation that a lvl2 Psyker can cast every one of his powers twice RaW? Is that interpretation any less valid RaW than yours? If so please explain why?

The bolded part isn't incredibly important. It is just more important than the rest of the paragraph. That is what rules tell us. My interpretation is consistent with this and everything else in the book. Your interpretation takes the bolded part out of context then tries to over write very clear definable actions that the rules tell us we can make.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So you would be happy call my interpretation that a lvl2 Psyker can cast every one of his powers twice RaW? Is that interpretation any less valid RaW than yours? If so please explain why?

Because the rules clearly restrict a unit from casting the same power twice.

That the rules allow you keep attempting to cast powers as long as you have dice available is a permission. The restriction against casting a power more than once in the same unit is a restriction. Restrictions must always override permissions for game rules to function. You can read the link in my sig (about codex not always overriding the rulebook) if you'd like a much more detailed explanation of why that is.

The bolded part isn't incredibly important. It is just more important than the rest of the paragraph. That is what rules tell us. My interpretation is consistent with this and everything else in the book. Your interpretation takes the bolded part out of context then tries to over write very clear definable actions that the rules tell us we can make

Again, if your interpretation is true, then that sentence is not more important than anything, as it could literally be removed from the book and it would not change anything at all. It therefore could not be more unimportant.

I'm not trying to say your interpretation is wrong. It isn't. But to try to claim that there isn't any ambiguity here and that the bolded sentence is somehow an important rule despite being completely meaningless is silly.

Because the rules clearly restrict a unit from casting the same power twice.

That the rules allow you keep attempting to cast powers as long as you have dice available is a permission. The restriction against casting a power more than once in the same unit is a restriction. Restrictions must always override permissions for game rules to function. You can read the link in my sig (about codex not always overriding the rulebook) if you'd like a much more detailed explanation of why that is.

OK so making it more inclusive in your mind is bad. How about more restrictive? Is the interpretation that you can cast the number of powers equal to your mastery level -3 to a minimum of 1 RaW? Is that another valid RaW interpretation. If not show why?

Again, if your interpretation is true, then that sentence is not more important than anything, as it could literally be removed from the book and it would not change anything at all. It therefore could not be more unimportant.

I'm not trying to say your interpretation is wrong. It isn't. But to try to claim that there isn't any ambiguity here and that the bolded sentence is somehow an important rule despite being completely meaningless is silly.

I am away for the week without my rulebook. Is it true that you're claiming that there are no bolkded redundant reminders in the book? Any such examples must instead be reinterpreted to mean something different otherwise they can be removed from the rulebook without making a difference and this can't possibly be the case. That is what you are saying correct?

Wow that small question really exploded into a massive debate didn't it? My bad

If the psyker was restricted to his mastery level in terms of casting powers, why does it not tell us in the rulebook what to do if a level1 psyker generates a level 2 or higher power? He wouldnt be able to cast it based on this interpretation, but I cant find anything in the rulebook that tells us what to do in this instance. Does he have to swap for the primaris? Does he get to reroll? This would make a level 1 psyker slightly more likely to get a power he wants as long as it's warp charge 1... does that seem likely to be an intended event? I wouldnt mind making a herald of nurgle psyker level 1 and reroll haemhorrage or endurance in hopes of iron arm or warp speed. I doubt geedubs would make it better to be a level 1 than a level 2, in any circumstance, however in this case that may be true, and certainly in some specific builds where the warp charge comes from elsewhere anyways.

edit: It also fails to explain why you cant cast a ml2 power when, even if you only have a level 1 psyker in your list, any dice roll would provide him with enough warp energy to attempt a warp charge 2 power. It just simply does not say anything specific enough, or outline any of the external interactions an extra dependance would have, to actually consider this interpretation as valid. It's missing way too many supporting rules and statements to presume a mastery level 2 psyker can only cast/generate 2 warp charge worth of powers. There should be multiple more paragraphs in the rulebook explaining all of these things. However, there isnt.

Mathematically, there are a vast number of scenarios one can invent based solely on the sentence that states "the amount of powers a psyker can cast is dependent on his mastery level." any interpretation is equally valid. The dependance must be quantified to make a decision based on it. Since it isn't quantified, there seems to be a grey area.

However, if we pool our knowledge of other interactions with psykers, we know that it is much more likely for a ml3 psyker to have more powers to choose from, and more warp charge generation on his own, to cast powers with. This is in fact a quantified dependance. We know already that ml3 psyker>ml1 psyker in terms of powers generated, and also in terms of capability of casting those powers on his own. Of course there are items that act as modifiers to this dependance(such as allowing for an extra power to be generated and chosen from), but the dependance as expressed is quantified and very easy to understand. My interpretation is that games workshop is simply expressing this so that people know early in the rulebook that a mastery level 3 psyker has more powers to choose from and ability to cast them than a lesser psyker. It's simply explaining what mastery level is, and what it does. This would aid beginners in list building and also be a helpful cross-reference if one was confused about how to find how many powers his psyker can generate. A little redundant perhaps, but there's plenty of that in the rulebook.

Edit - Furthermore, this explains, most likely, why the statement is bolded... It is a very important rule interaction that a more powerful psyker can cast more spells per turn and has more to choose from on his own. It is a fundamental governing dynamic of the psychic phase. Imagine if it wasn't clear that this was the case. I think alot of times people forget that the rulebook is written both for old grizzled veterans and fresh new gamers that know nothing about the game.

Any other interpretation is guesswork, and ends up adding a restriction where there never was one, or inventing some sort of other dependance that exists on top of the one we already know exists. If that sentence was not there, you would already know it was true anyway. The amount of powers a psyker can cast already does depend on his mastery level. That's why we take level 2 or 3 psykers sometimes.

Stalked21 wrote:
Wow that small question really exploded into a massive debate didn't it? My bad

Its not your fault, this has been an issue since the edition came out.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:

Spoiler:

If the psyker was restricted to his mastery level in terms of casting powers, why does it not tell us in the rulebook what to do if a level1 psyker generates a level 2 or higher power? He wouldnt be able to cast it based on this interpretation, but I cant find anything in the rulebook that tells us what to do in this instance. Does he have to swap for the primaris? Does he get to reroll? This would make a level 1 psyker slightly more likely to get a power he wants as long as it's warp charge 1... does that seem likely to be an intended event? I wouldnt mind making a herald of nurgle psyker level 1 and reroll haemhorrage or endurance in hopes of iron arm or warp speed. I doubt geedubs would make it better to be a level 1 than a level 2, in any circumstance, however in this case that may be true, and certainly in some specific builds where the warp charge comes from elsewhere anyways.

edit: It also fails to explain why you cant cast a ml2 power when, even if you only have a level 1 psyker in your list, any dice roll would provide him with enough warp energy to attempt a warp charge 2 power. It just simply does not say anything specific enough, or outline any of the external interactions an extra dependance would have, to actually consider this interpretation as valid. It's missing way too many supporting rules and statements to presume a mastery level 2 psyker can only cast/generate 2 warp charge worth of powers. There should be multiple more paragraphs in the rulebook explaining all of these things. However, there isnt.

Mathematically, there are a vast number of scenarios one can invent based solely on the sentence that states "the amount of powers a psyker can cast is dependent on his mastery level." any interpretation is equally valid. The dependance must be quantified to make a decision based on it. Since it isn't quantified, there seems to be a grey area.

However, if we pool our knowledge of other interactions with psykers, we know that it is much more likely for a ml3 psyker to have more powers to choose from, and more warp charge generation on his own, to cast powers with. This is in fact a quantified dependance. We know already that ml3 psyker>ml1 psyker in terms of powers generated, and also in terms of capability of casting those powers on his own. Of course there are items that act as modifiers to this dependance(such as allowing for an extra power to be generated and chosen from), but the dependance as expressed is quantified and very easy to understand. My interpretation is that games workshop is simply expressing this so that people know early in the rulebook that a mastery level 3 psyker has more powers to choose from and ability to cast them than a lesser psyker. It's simply explaining what mastery level is, and what it does. This would aid beginners in list building and also be a helpful cross-reference if one was confused about how to find how many powers his psyker can generate. A little redundant perhaps, but there's plenty of that in the rulebook.

Edit - Furthermore, this explains, most likely, why the statement is bolded... It is a very important rule interaction that a more powerful psyker can cast more spells per turn and has more to choose from on his own. It is a fundamental governing dynamic of the psychic phase. Imagine if it wasn't clear that this was the case. I think alot of times people forget that the rulebook is written both for old grizzled veterans and fresh new gamers that know nothing about the game.

Any other interpretation is guesswork, and ends up adding a restriction where there never was one, or inventing some sort of other dependance that exists on top of the one we already know exists. If that sentence was not there, you would already know it was true anyway. The amount of powers a psyker can cast already does depend on his mastery level. That's why we take level 2 or 3 psykers sometimes.

You have completely missed the entire point of the counter-argument. Nobody is saying that a pysker is restricted to only casting a powers equal to its mastery level. I'm saying that a psyker can only cast a NUMBER of powers equal to its mastery level.

So yes, either way you interpret it, a level 1 psyker can cast a mastery level 2 or 3 power potentially.

And no, if the bolded statement does not mean this (that the psyker is limited on how many powers he can cast) it is *not* an important rule, because it literally could be removed from the book and nothing at all (I mean, at all) would change…which is pretty much the definition of unimportant.

But anyway, glad this thread got dragged back up again (sarcasm)!

As president of the mat ward fan club maybe just rule that grey knight psykers can cast any number of powers any number of times.. he'd want it that way emperor rest his immortal soul.

You have completely missed the entire point of the counter-argument. Nobody is saying that a pysker is restricted to only casting a powers equal to its mastery level. I'm saying that a psyker can only cast a NUMBER of powers equal to its mastery level.

So yes, either way you interpret it, a level 1 psyker can cast a mastery level 2 or 3 power potentially.

And no, if the bolded statement does not mean this (that the psyker is limited on how many powers he can cast) it is *not* an important rule, because it literally could be removed from the book and nothing at all (I mean, at all) would change…which is pretty much the definition of unimportant.

But anyway, glad this thread got dragged back up again (sarcasm)!

Cool so what does "Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers" do it can't mean what it says as it is in bold and if removed nothing changes. A similar line does not occur in any other phase and we know this line can't be contextual or a redundant reminder by your interpretation. So what made up interpretation do we need to make for this line to meet your definition of important?

Likewise moving and shooting contains a bolded redundant reminder. I'm sure the book is quite literally littered with such examples, why pick this one out and try to make it have more meaning than it does?

I'm sorry but this is almost as ludicrous as Psychic Shriek must roll to hit argument. If your rules require you to make up a bunch of rules out of thin air then your rules do not have a solid base.