Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 dusara217 wrote:

They do have ranged weapons, but not even close to on par with factions like the Tau, Mechanicum, Necrons, etc. who would be their greatest competition.

They can always develop counters, as far as I know the IoM has been unable to keep the Tyranids at range, once the shooting starts both factions are hit. Tyranid "guns" work just as well as their Imperial equivalent

.
They're really not as uncommon as you would think, though they would be classified in the "rare" category. I'd say that things like blackhole guns would be standard fare in the Necron arsenal, and smaller ships can't negate a 10k km-wide explosion from a Black Holes Gun, nuke, etc.

Nuke are useless in space, and Black Hole Gun's fire very small black holes. And I recall the last time a Nova cannon was used against Tyranids, and it didn't do much

Everyone needs energy, that is true, but the very equipment of the Tyranids needs energy the good-ole-fashioned-way. Whereas, for the Necrons, literally EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING can be powered up by a Nuclear Breeder (fusion and fission for potentially infinite energy without needing to worry about extra fuel), which is far cheaper, far more reliable, and far more effective than calories and biomass.

There are; extracting calories from existing biomass, which will decrease available biomass, and weaken the Hive Fleet. In a long-term engagement, the Tyranids would get raped because of this.

The Tyranids already developed FTL, why they can' tuse Fusion?

While I'm fond of the Tyranids adapting and developing counters to to Enemies, I don't see how they are able to reliably do this to a lot of Necron Weaponry. This is due to how different it functions than pretty much all other weaponry is 40k. A good example are Gauss Weapons. They don't hurl energy or munitions like most weapons the Tyranids develop a defense against. Instead, they strip the consistent atoms away. I don't really see any way something completely biological can adapt to that.

As far as space faring goes, the Necron Navy outclasses everyone, not just Tyranids.

The FTL travel for Tyranids is based on the Gravitational pull of a planet, which is a completely different ballgame than producing a biological equivalent to fusion.

Standard Necron battleship armament is Gauss Particle Whips and Lighting Arcs. It's one of the reasons the Particle Whip on the Monolith is such a joke - it's supposed to be the same as the main gun on Necron battleships, which have ranges measured in miles.

That said, average weapon range in Gothic is about 60cm, and both Necron and Tyranid ships only average 45cm.

[quote=Tyran 635945 7610018 ed462436bddd8166c386996b618f6c17.pngThey can always develop counters, as far as I know the IoM has been unable to keep the Tyranids at range, once the shooting starts both factions are hit. Tyranid "guns" work just as well as their Imperial equivalent

Sasori wrote:While I'm fond of the Tyranids adapting and developing counters to to Enemies, I don't see how they are able to reliably do this to a lot of Necron Weaponry. This is due to how different it functions than pretty much all other weaponry is 40k. A good example are Gauss Weapons. They don't hurl energy or munitions like most weapons the Tyranids develop a defense against. Instead, they strip the consistent atoms away. I don't really see any way something completely biological can adapt to that.

With mass and ablative armor, as far as I have seen, the only way to counter Gauss is with a larger amount of atoms so it takes more time to strip... and also shields

.

As far as space faring goes, the Necron Navy outclasses everyone, not just Tyranids.

I agree on that

The FTL travel for Tyranids is based on the Gravitational pull of a planet, which is a completely different ballgame than producing a biological equivalent to fusion.

There is a difference between nuclear fire and plasma. Plasma is just superheated material, but nuclear energy is explosive and superheated; enough energy to level a Province, or a State, or a County.

And yet there are ways to control it.

Your argument is that Tyranid's can't use fusion because they are organic. But their muscles are as strong as hydraulic pistons, their chitin, carapaces, bones and claws are harder than steel.

They definitely can build "stomachs" in their ships that are as resilient as the walls of nuclear reactors.

The difference between just plasma and a fusion reaction is that:

Plasma is a the fourth state of matter which is simply ionized gas. We see this in our everyday life from the sun to fluorescent light bulbs. Nids seem to use electricity produced through biological means to produce plasma (as opposed to superheating a chunk of material which would be extremely inefficient) which could mean they could expose very little of their organics to said plasma before firing it off. (In the exocrine, I assume that when whatever it shoots is initially fired off, it's not in a state of plasma but as it travels down the "barrel," a whole lot of electrical discharges occur which converts the round into a plasma as opposed having a bank of superheated gas held in it's belly which would need a constant source of electricity/heat to sustain).

Fusion reactions typically occur when a pair of atoms are forced together under an extreme amount of force and as a result, a lot of energy is produced which is seen as a whole lot of heat. In stars, we see gravity exerting the necessary pressure to make this all happen, Here on Earth though? To get a thermonuclear bomb (hydrogen bomb, fusion bomb, etc.) to successfully undergo fusion, first a fission bomb has to go off to produce the force needed to compress the fusion fuel (and then a second fission bomb goes off to get the necessary heat).

Not too sure how Tyranids are going to be able to produce the force needed for the fusion reaction or contain the resulting energy produced through biological means.

So, Tyranids can produce all sorts of acid, plasma, literal fire, build ships out of organic material, but fusion is suddenly out of their reach?

I'm sorry, I believe evolution would like a word with you. It may take them a while, but I believe Tyranids could eventually evolve some sort of weaponry

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, Tyranids can produce all sorts of acid, plasma, literal fire, build ships out of organic material, but fusion is suddenly out of their reach?

I'm sorry, I believe evolution would like a word with you. It may take them a while, but I believe Tyranids could eventually evolve some sort of weaponry

Not saying they can't. I'm saying it's hard to imagine a way organics could successfully pull off a contained fusion reaction. So I'm staying in the boat saying that they can't unless someone can come up with a theory that shows a way that they could.

How inorganics pull it?

 Tyran wrote:
How inorganics pull it?

Either in a bomb (except no containment here ) or Laser Inertial Fusion (Shout out to the awesome guys at Lawrence Livermore's National Ignition Facility! ... And after 14 years of waiting, I still want my damn tour ).

Our problem today is controlled fusion is an inefficient source of energy as it takes more energy to get the fusion reaction going than the reaction puts out. But they've been making quite a bit of progress with LLNIF setting a record in controlled energy output/input back in 2013

What about an electromagnetic field strong enough to pull the atoms together?

 Tyran wrote:
What about an electromagnetic field strong enough to pull the atoms together?

Has been tried (and still in trials with version of the idea by ITER). Big flaw is HIGH loss of energy from conduction and - to a lesser extent - radiation. Another flaw is the restricted upper limit of power production thanks to the ionizing of particles which results in the particles potentially accumulating in areas you don't exactly want them to be which results in lower power output. To fix this, the only solution involves increasing power input which means a lower level of efficiency.

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, Tyranids can produce all sorts of acid, plasma, literal fire, build ships out of organic material, but fusion is suddenly out of their reach?

I'm sorry, I believe evolution would like a word with you. It may take them a while, but I believe Tyranids could eventually evolve some sort of weaponry

Because they wouldn't need to even bother eating anything if they had hydrogen. Much like how some daft individuals claim Tyranids ignore thermodynamics, if they had access to free energy, they would not evolve at all. Instead they would be harmless space-whales that suck up Nebulae and do nothing else. If they could produce fusion and extract energy from it, there would be no reason to consume worlds at all. It is impossible, because any species that can generate fusion reactors in place of a heart or stomach would stop adapting.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, Tyranids can produce all sorts of acid, plasma, literal fire, build ships out of organic material, but fusion is suddenly out of their reach?

I'm sorry, I believe evolution would like a word with you. It may take them a while, but I believe Tyranids could eventually evolve some sort of weaponry

Because they wouldn't need to even bother eating anything if they had hydrogen. Much like how some daft individuals claim Tyranids ignore thermodynamics, if they had access to free energy, they would not evolve at all. Instead they would be harmless space-whales that suck up Nebulae and do nothing else. If they could produce fusion and extract energy from it, there would be no reason to consume worlds at all. It is impossible, because any species that can generate fusion reactors in place of a heart or stomach would stop adapting.

They still need raw materials, energy isn't everything unless you have energy to matter conversion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 King Pariah wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
What about an electromagnetic field strong enough to pull the atoms together?

Has been tried (and still in trials with version of the idea by ITER). Big flaw is HIGH loss of energy from conduction and - to a lesser extent - radiation. Another flaw is the restricted upper limit of power production thanks to the ionizing of particles which results in the particles potentially accumulating in areas you don't exactly want them to be which results in lower power output. To fix this, the only solution involves increasing power input which means a lower level of efficiency.

Well, at least it is possible... what if instead of a laser like you mentioned before you use telekinesis?

And what about other possible energy sources?

IIRC, the IoM uses plasma reactors, and Tyranid ships are full of bio-plasma, so at least it seems they could have their own version. But no idea how a plasma reactor would work.

You'd still have to figure out a way to provide the necessary heat and contain the resulting burst of energy from each fusion reaction. And if you're using telekinesis on the atomic level to force atoms together, you may as well use it to rip what material you need to survive from whatever pops up in your way making planetfall and nom nom'ing kind of pointless.

 Otto Weston wrote:
.

Even Leech got on the band-wagon claiming that you can't just say Necrons win.... when obviously Wyzilla wasn't saying that at all. I'm not a friend of Wyzilla's so I have no personal bias in this, I just get annoyed when people are maligned because they have a differing point of view.

 King Pariah wrote:
You'd still have to figure out a way to provide the necessary heat and contain the resulting burst of energy from each fusion reaction. And if you're using telekinesis on the atomic level to force atoms together, you may as well use it to rip what material you need to survive from whatever pops up in your way making planetfall and nom nom'ing kind of pointless.

I still doubt the Tyranids rely on calories, you don't travel galaxies with calories.

 Leech wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
.

Even Leech got on the band-wagon claiming that you can't just say Necrons win.... when obviously Wyzilla wasn't saying that at all. I'm not a friend of Wyzilla's so I have no personal bias in this, I just get annoyed when people are maligned because they have a differing point of view.

I didn't jump on a bandwagon, I have an opinion of my own. I just made the point Necrons aren't immune to Tyranids or is it even certain, dare I say it, if Necrons are superior to Tyranids. I made valid points (which I'm not repeating again) and was just being shouted down. I know some some people who like Necrons don't like the idea that Tyranids can even touch them. People posting constantly that Necrons are utterly superior comes up every time Tyranids and Necrons are in a thread together, nothing new. However just because some people don't like it when Tyranids destroy Necron dynasties and eat their Tomb Worlds does not mean it doesn't happen.

I find it hard to talk about how Tyranids and Necrons might interact when everything I suggest is met with outraged declarations of Necron invincibility. Not much to discuss when that happens.

Keep in mind, that all the points in your post on the first page have been thoroughly debunked. It's pretty hard to have a good discussion when nearly every single point a person brings up is wrong.

Sasori wrote:Tyranids pose a threat to the Necrons Apothesis, This is the main reason the Silent King wants to stop them. If there are no bodies left for the Necrons to transfer back to, then He will will forever live with the fact that he doomed his race to their current condition.

Military wise, the Necrons have very very rarely actually lost a battle to the Tyranids. Most of the Tomb Worlds destroyed by the Tyranids were dormant, I. E. the Charnovok Dynasty. The Necrons are at their weakest when just waking up and dormant. So it's no surprise that they lost a few planets to the Tyranids in this state.

One of the Main reasons that the Nids can't really beat the Necrons, is the fact that the Necrons Have by far, the most sophisticated and powerful Navy in 40k. IA12 is the best example of this, when one of the largest fleets ever assembled by the Imperium got decimated, by a Necron fleet less than 1/4th it's size.

Whoever mentioned the Inertialess drive as being retconned, is completely wrong, It's mentioned in both IA12 and in the new Necron codex.

Keep in mind, Necrons have rarely won any battles against Tyranids either. The Necron navy is strong but blowing up an Imperial fleet is something the Tyranids have done on a much larger scale than the Necrons. During the invasion of Ultramar much of the Ultramarine's fleet was damaged or destroyed. In addition the Imperial navy fleet which had been arriving for months and Ultramar's planetary defences were practically annihilated. Then the majority of the segmentum's fleet arrived that too was wiped out by the Tyanid fleet. One thing to note is both the Ultramarines and the Imperial navy were not only outnumbered and outgunned, but also outsmarted when the Tyranids withdrew from Macragge, they followed right into the second half of the swarm that was purposefully waiting for them. The only reason they won was the Imperial flagship activating it's warpdrive over a celestial phenomenon. The gravity wave pulled energy from it into the swarm destroying it, and the few remaining Imperials.

Keep in mind the Hive Fleet that did that was Behemoth, a small Hive Fleet compared to later swarms. The result of a larger swarm going after the Necron navy would not be pleasant for the Necrons.

Wyzilla wrote:The threat of Tyranids is seriously mitigated when you can lure them into a solar system, and detonate the star to kill everything within several lightyears.

And kill yourself in the process? The Imperium has tried this with exterminatus and even they know it's a losing strategy. The number of Hive Fleets is immense, the Imperium has already concluded they could run out of worlds before the Tyranids run out of Hive Fleets. Note the only information the Imperium has on how Tyranids select planets or galaxies they consume is theory. Genestealers are vanguard organisms that can draw a Hive Fleet. However this is only known because Tyranid attacks are more likely but not certain on Genestealer infested worlds. Also the Imperium's knowledge of the overall strategic aims of the Hive mind is zero. All the Imperium knows is their original theory that it had no strategic aims were wrong. The Necrons also have little knowledge of the Tyranids, certainly not enough to even make an educated guess about how to lure them.

Sasori wrote:

 Leech wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
.

Even Leech got on the band-wagon claiming that you can't just say Necrons win.... when obviously Wyzilla wasn't saying that at all. I'm not a friend of Wyzilla's so I have no personal bias in this, I just get annoyed when people are maligned because they have a differing point of view.

I didn't jump on a bandwagon, I have an opinion of my own. I just made the point Necrons aren't immune to Tyranids or is it even certain, dare I say it, if Necrons are superior to Tyranids. I made valid points (which I'm not repeating again) and was just being shouted down. I know some some people who like Necrons don't like the idea that Tyranids can even touch them. People posting constantly that Necrons are utterly superior comes up every time Tyranids and Necrons are in a thread together, nothing new. However just because some people don't like it when Tyranids destroy Necron dynasties and eat their Tomb Worlds does not mean it doesn't happen.

I find it hard to talk about how Tyranids and Necrons might interact when everything I suggest is met with outraged declarations of Necron invincibility. Not much to discuss when that happens.

Keep in mind, that all the points in your post on the first page have been thoroughly debunked. It's pretty hard to have a good discussion when nearly every single point a person brings up is wrong.

Actually nothing was debunked, just ignored.

One thing I've wondered, Ctan are universal, not unique to this galaxy. Yet the Tyranids have consumed other galaxies and the C'tan there in at least some of them would of tried to stop the swarm. That the Tyranids are still around implies heavily that they failed. The C'tan shard beats all idea has never been foolproof.

 Tyran wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
You'd still have to figure out a way to provide the necessary heat and contain the resulting burst of energy from each fusion reaction. And if you're using telekinesis on the atomic level to force atoms together, you may as well use it to rip what material you need to survive from whatever pops up in your way making planetfall and nom nom'ing kind of pointless.

I still doubt the Tyranids rely on calories, you don't travel galaxies with calories.

Ehhhh...

Nids wouldn't have to use THAT much energy when at FTL. Gotta remember that as one approaches the speed of light, time - compared to the red of the universe - would slow down for you (bit more complicated than that but it'll suffice) so while millennia pass in real time, mere seconds, minutes, hours, etc. Pass for you. Now at FTL, there are theories that no time would pass for you or that you would arrive at your destination before you departed for it (not explaining this one... It gives me a headache trying to conceptualize it) but the case remains that not as much time would pass for you as the rest of the universe (aside from other fast moving things).

So when doing their gravity corridor shenanigans for FTL travel, nids would have to use a significant amount of energy possibly to get going and slowing down, but when in actual transit, energy expenditures would probably be at a minimum.

As for "combat" or "dining" speed.... No idea really. Maybe they still rely on gravity but instead of corridors, they create gravitational anomalies like the yuuzhan vong from star wars (another species whose technology is completely organic based).

Are C'tan universal though?

Even if they are, without physical bodies like the ones the Necrons built for them, they're energy beings that feed on stars. They don't really give a monkey's uncle about what happens to the planets. They probably wouldn't have gotten involved at all.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Are C'tan universal though?

Even if they are, without physical bodies like the ones the Necrons built for them, they're energy beings that feed on stars. They don't really give a monkey's uncle about what happens to the planets. They probably wouldn't have gotten involved at all.

Nothing retcons the Oldcron fluff of them being born with the universe so it's probable that they are universal and that the nightbringer, void dragon, deciever, outsider, etc. are just local C'tan

 King Pariah wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
You'd still have to figure out a way to provide the necessary heat and contain the resulting burst of energy from each fusion reaction. And if you're using telekinesis on the atomic level to force atoms together, you may as well use it to rip what material you need to survive from whatever pops up in your way making planetfall and nom nom'ing kind of pointless.

I still doubt the Tyranids rely on calories, you don't travel galaxies with calories.

Ehhhh...

Nids wouldn't have to use THAT much energy when at FTL. Gotta remember that as one approaches the speed of light, time - compared to the red of the universe - would slow down for you (bit more complicated than that but it'll suffice) so while millennia pass in real time, mere seconds, minutes, hours, etc. Pass for you. Now at FTL, there are theories that no time would pass for you or that you would arrive at your destination before you departed for it (not explaining this one... It gives me a headache trying to conceptualize it) but the case remains that not as much time would pass for you as the rest of the universe (aside from other fast moving things).

So when doing their gravity corridor shenanigans for FTL travel, nids would have to use a significant amount of energy possibly to get going and slowing down, but when in actual transit, energy expenditures would probably be at a minimum.

As for "combat" or "dining" speed.... No idea really. Maybe they still rely on gravity but instead of corridors, they create gravitational anomalies like the yuuzhan vong from star wars (another species whose technology is completely organic based).

Even then, think of combat. Imperium ships fire what... megatons, gigatons, teratons (depending on calcs) worth of firepower and the Tyranids are in the same weight class. That's a lot of energy wasted in combat, and Tyranids tend to outlast their oponents, (after all, attrition warfare is their thing).

Keep in mind, Necrons have rarely won any battles against Tyranids either. The Necron navy is strong but blowing up an Imperial fleet is something the Tyranids have done on a much larger scale than the Necrons. During the invasion of Ultramar much of the Ultramarine's fleet was damaged or destroyed. In addition the Imperial navy fleet which had been arriving for months and Ultramar's planetary defences were practically annihilated. Then the majority of the segmentum's fleet arrived that too was wiped out by the Tyanid fleet. One thing to note is both the Ultramarines and the Imperial navy were not only outnumbered and outgunned, but also outsmarted when the Tyranids withdrew from Macragge, they followed right into the second half of the swarm that was purposefully waiting for them. The only reason they won was the Imperial flagship activating it's warpdrive over a celestial phenomenon. The gravity wave pulled energy from it into the swarm destroying it, and the few remaining Imperials.

The Tyranids have not battled anywhere near a fleet the size of the one that displayed in IA12. The Imperium fleet there was one of the largest assembled in the history of the Imperium. It was larger than the fleet during the gothic war. The Necrons easily defeated it.

A good example of a space victory the Necrons had is when the Necron Fleet engaged the Tyranids over Kai'mais. They wiped the floor with them, then proceeded to conquer the planet the Tyranids were heading for.

Necrons have not "rarely" won any battles against the Tyranids, they have won nearly all of them. As I stated before, nearly all the "Victories" The Tyranids have had over the Necrons have been dormant or just awakening tomb worlds. You can count on one hand the Tyranid Victories otherwise.

Keep in mind the Hive Fleet that did that was Behemoth, a small Hive Fleet compared to later swarms. The result of a larger swarm going after the Necron navy would not be pleasant for the Necrons.

It wouldn't matter. I've amply demonstrated the scale and the power of the Necron fleet, including showcasing an easy victory against the Tyranids in space. You need to provide some actual evidence to the contrary.

Actually nothing was debunked, just ignored.

Just as you have ignored evidence to the contrary.

One thing I've wondered, Ctan are universal, not unique to this galaxy. Yet the Tyranids have consumed other galaxies and the C'tan there in at least some of them would of tried to stop the swarm. That the Tyranids are still around implies heavily that they failed. The C'tan shard beats all idea has never been foolproof.

There is no evidence one way or the other for this.


So Leech, I ask you, to provide some evidence of the Tyranids beating the Necrons so badly. There are multiple instances in the last codex, and the current one that shows Necron Victories, including some short stories about it as well. I search through the Tyranid codex for the word "Necron" and I come up with not a single victory for the Tyranids against the Necrons In the Tyranid Codex. I can only think of one full battle in space between them, in which the Necrons emerged victorious.

If the Necron wake up and unite they will beat the Tyranids... luckily most Necrons are sleeping and they are quite fractured.

 Tyran wrote:
If the Necron wake up and unite they will beat the Tyranids... luckily most Necrons are sleeping and they are quite fractured.

You are right. The Key to defeating the Necrons is catching their Tomb Worlds while they are either awakening, or dormant. This is shown to be their major weakpoint, for sure.

Which is ironic, given that the most hated unit in the game for a very long time was one of the ones that's awake when you get there even if nothing else is.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, Tyranids can produce all sorts of acid, plasma, literal fire, build ships out of organic material, but fusion is suddenly out of their reach?

I'm sorry, I believe evolution would like a word with you. It may take them a while, but I believe Tyranids could eventually evolve some sort of weaponry

Because they wouldn't need to even bother eating anything if they had hydrogen. Much like how some daft individuals claim Tyranids ignore thermodynamics, if they had access to free energy, they would not evolve at all. Instead they would be harmless space-whales that suck up Nebulae and do nothing else. If they could produce fusion and extract energy from it, there would be no reason to consume worlds at all. It is impossible, because any species that can generate fusion reactors in place of a heart or stomach would stop adapting.

Space Whales


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leech wrote:

One thing I've wondered, Ctan are universal, not unique to this galaxy. Yet the Tyranids have consumed other galaxies and the C'tan there in at least some of them would of tried to stop the swarm. That the Tyranids are still around implies heavily that they failed. The C'tan shard beats all idea has never been foolproof.

There's no guarentee that the C'tan in the previous galaxies were even aware of other sentient beings, though. It was pure chance that the C'tan were contacted by the Necrontyr in the first place, so it seems as if the C'tan were largely ignored by the 'Nids, and ignored them in turn. Alternately, perhaps other Tyranid forces attacked C'tan-held galaxies and failed to consum them. We have no knowledge of the number of Hive Minds of Hive Fleets, so, hypothetically, there could be dozens of Hive Minds controlling hundreds/thousands of Hive Fleets all over the Universe.