Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

He only beat the emperor because th emperor let him win. He found his salamander but was about to fall in a crevasse of lava, the Emperor through his (bigger) salamander away to help Vulkan up.

Yep I agree with the polls it has to be between Vulkan and Sang...

.

Take it easy there, dusara217.

On topic:

The poll results aren't too convincing. Rogal Dorn is in third and he is probably the loyalist most likely to fall.

And while no once can argue about the nobility of Sanguinius and Vulkan, a warm heart is by no means Chaos-proof.

Durasa that's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said about the tone of your posts earlier.

Why is Dorn most likely to fall..? At the weekender they said he's basically incorruptable.

I don't mean that he would ever turn against the Emperor. But in his despair after the Emperor's incapacity, he nearly turned against the Imperium.

For more, see here.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
True. Vulkan was noble. But correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't as accomplished.

He's more accomplished then Sanguinius. Baal is still a radioactive godforsaken wasteland. Vulkan meanwhile actually managed to improve his deathworld- kicking out the Dark Eldar, and I think he may have had a hand in building the seven citadels.

It's not like Sanguinius could have just taken a magic vacuum and sucked out all the radiation. The only thing that can get rid of radiation is time, and lots of it. As long as the radiation was there, the wasteland would remain because there is no way for plants to evolve and grow when they are being irradiated and die wholesale.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't mean that he would ever turn against the Emperor. But in his despair after the Emperor's incapacity, he nearly turned against the Imperium.

For more, see here.

Yeah, I can kinda see it I guess. But that's what the guys at FW said, I dunno if they meant incorruptible as in was very unlikely to fall to chaos, or very unlikely to turn from the Emperor. As in, I dunno if the incorruptible extends after the Emps death.

Several primarchs washed up on ravaged planets and really turned things around: Vulkan, Fulgrim, the Lion, Corax, even Curze and Mortarion after their own fashion. Not so with Sanguinius, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@IAG: I estimate the probability of Dorn directly/consciously betraying the Emperor in any case whatsoever to be 0%. It's exactly that kind of inflexibility, however, that is twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

This makes a lot of sense and in the end look at what it took to turn him away from the Emperor. It took an blade of chaos to turn him from the path and into the light of darkness. He had even tired of Erebus from the sounds of the books....

I'd say Ferrus Manus because he was afflicted with what was most-likely necrodermis which is Warp-retardant and he operates almost entirely on logic and rationality (the only time I can recall him losing his temper was when Fulgrim betrayed him) For him, the most logical choice would be to serve the Emperor. That, and him and the Iron Hands operate on the basis of 'survival of the fittest' and they will gladly destroy any weaknesses they have, and that would extend to vulnerability to corruption. If anyone had the risk of succumbing to Chaos/sold their souls to Chaos, the Iron Hands will destroy them without mercy to keep the taint from spreading (refer to the Purging of Contqual)

 Manchu wrote:
Several primarchs washed up on ravaged planets and really turned things around: Vulkan, Fulgrim, the Lion, Corax, even Curze and Mortarion after their own fashion. Not so with Sanguinius, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@IAG: I estimate the probability of Dorn directly/consciously betraying the Emperor in any case whatsoever to be 0%. It's exactly that kind of inflexibility, however, that is twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

Vulkan landed on a world covered in volcanoes, which don't erupt 24/7; not a world covered in radiation 24/7
Fulgrim landed on a depleted, sun-starved mining world, not an irradiated wasteland where you can die from a morning walk in the sun
The Lion landed on a lush, forested feudal world, which had many small cities and townships alongside thousands of Knightly Orders which kept the Chaos Daemons at bay, not Space Fallout, where a few dozen thousand tribals were the entire population of the entire planet.
Corax landed on an oppressed world and became Space Batman, not Radiation Land where he became Gamma Man
Curze landed on an oppressed world and became Space Assassin's Creed, not Radiation Land where his people would die should they even prick their fingers
Mortarion landed on Necro-World, where he became Space Braveheart, not Radiation Land, where the dead were too irradiated to even become zombies.

You get the picture? Sanguinius landed on the one world where there was absolutely zero chance of him creating a paradise, and the best that he was able to do was create a prosperous society that worshiped him as a God (see: Space Jesus).

 dusara217 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Several primarchs washed up on ravaged planets and really turned things around: Vulkan, Fulgrim, the Lion, Corax, even Curze and Mortarion after their own fashion. Not so with Sanguinius, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@IAG: I estimate the probability of Dorn directly/consciously betraying the Emperor in any case whatsoever to be 0%. It's exactly that kind of inflexibility, however, that is twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

Vulkan landed on a world covered in volcanoes, which don't erupt 24/7; not a world covered in radiation 24/7
Fulgrim landed on a depleted, sun-starved mining world, not an irradiated wasteland where you can die from a morning walk in the sun
The Lion landed on a lush, forested feudal world, which had many small cities and townships alongside thousands of Knightly Orders which kept the Chaos Daemons at bay, not Space Fallout, where a few dozen thousand tribals were the entire population of the entire planet.
Corax landed on an oppressed world and became Space Batman, not Radiation Land where he became Gamma Man
Curze landed on an oppressed world and became Space Assassin's Creed, not Radiation Land where his people would die should they even prick their fingers
Mortarion landed on Necro-World, where he became Space Braveheart, not Radiation Land, where the dead were too irradiated to even become zombies.

You get the picture? Sanguinius landed on the one world where there was absolutely zero chance of him creating a paradise, and the best that he was able to do was create a prosperous society that worshiped him as a God (see: Space Jesus).

Honestly, Baal isn't all that different from Barbarus . Just replace the deadly radiation with virulent and corrosive gas and you get the same situation. You could die from a morning walk in the bog. Also, Sanguinius could walk on the surface without a rad suit whereas Mortarion apparently needed a breathing aparatus. Even that wasn't enough on highest peak, which actually caused him, a Primarch, to black out. The Primarch of the Death Guard (renowned for their toughness) no less.

So I'm guessing the deadly radiation really isn't that bad when you're a Primarch. And all the planets had their unique challenges.

Landing in the middle of the forest on Caliban wasn't exactly a walk in the park either. What's worse for a baby Primarch, radiation or a Chaos Spawn? And there weren't thousands of knightly orders. This is still a death world we're talking about. He survived utterly alone for a decade.

That said, what Sanguinius accomplished on Baal seems to be on the same level as what Mortarion did. Basically they led their respective tribes and fought back the mutant/undead tide that threatened to snuff out human life.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't mean that he would ever turn against the Emperor. But in his despair after the Emperor's incapacity, he nearly turned against the Imperium.
here.

But turning against the Imperium and falling to Chaos are different things. With his faith and love for the Emperor intact I think that is why he wouldn't likely fall to Chaos, even if the old Legions and new formed Chapters had started a new inter Imperium war. From reading the IA article on the Black Templars it suggests that it was Legions and not a Legion, being the Fists, from taking part. Likely, Vulkan and Russ legions would have aided Dorn, as they also did not want to break up their Legions for the 2nd Founding. Is there any further information anywhere on this?

The Primarchs that turned Traitor denounced the Emperor, making them more susceptible to the embrace of Chaos, Dorn always remained true.

Each have some foible that makes them as likely as the other to fall, but none more likely to fall than the other.

Argh! But then Ferrus might be the least likely thinking about it. He was given the choice, join the Traitors or don't and he didn't, he even chose the Emperor over his closest brother and friend. The Emperor he was forever trying to prove himself and stand out to amongst his more illustrious siblings.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


The Primarchs that turned Traitor denounced the Emperor, making them more susceptible to the embrace of Chaos, Dorn always remained true.

Each have some foible that makes them as likely as the other to fall, but none more likely to fall than the other.

Hold the phone.

Some Primarchs were most assuredly more likely to fall than others. It's a miracle that Angron didn't fall before there was a Horus Heresy. He'd might as well have had a "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!" tattoo put on the day the Emperor found him.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Hold the phone.

Some Primarchs were most assuredly more likely to fall than others. It's a miracle that Angron didn't fall before there was a Horus Heresy. He'd might as well have had a "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!" tattoo put on the day the Emperor found him.

Isn't the thread in relation to Loyalist Primarchs, to whom are the ones I am referring to.

I have a theory that the Emperor abducted Angron from Nuceria to stop him from turning into the Prince of Blood there and then. So I am fully aware that some of the Traitor Primarchs were more likely to fall than others

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Several primarchs washed up on ravaged planets and really turned things around: Vulkan, Fulgrim, the Lion, Corax, even Curze and Mortarion after their own fashion. Not so with Sanguinius, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@IAG: I estimate the probability of Dorn directly/consciously betraying the Emperor in any case whatsoever to be 0%. It's exactly that kind of inflexibility, however, that is twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

Vulkan landed on a world covered in volcanoes, which don't erupt 24/7; not a world covered in radiation 24/7
Fulgrim landed on a depleted, sun-starved mining world, not an irradiated wasteland where you can die from a morning walk in the sun
The Lion landed on a lush, forested feudal world, which had many small cities and townships alongside thousands of Knightly Orders which kept the Chaos Daemons at bay, not Space Fallout, where a few dozen thousand tribals were the entire population of the entire planet.
Corax landed on an oppressed world and became Space Batman, not Radiation Land where he became Gamma Man
Curze landed on an oppressed world and became Space Assassin's Creed, not Radiation Land where his people would die should they even prick their fingers
Mortarion landed on Necro-World, where he became Space Braveheart, not Radiation Land, where the dead were too irradiated to even become zombies.

You get the picture? Sanguinius landed on the one world where there was absolutely zero chance of him creating a paradise, and the best that he was able to do was create a prosperous society that worshiped him as a God (see: Space Jesus).

Honestly, Baal isn't all that different from Barbarus . Just replace the deadly radiation with virulent and corrosive gas and you get the same situation. You could die from a morning walk in the bog. Also, Sanguinius could walk on the surface without a rad suit whereas Mortarion apparently needed a breathing aparatus. Even that wasn't enough on highest peak, which actually caused him, a Primarch, to black out. The Primarch of the Death Guard (renowned for their toughness) no less.

So I'm guessing the deadly radiation really isn't that bad when you're a Primarch. And all the planets had their unique challenges.

Landing in the middle of the forest on Caliban wasn't exactly a walk in the park either. What's worse for a baby Primarch, radiation or a Chaos Spawn? And there weren't thousands of knightly orders. This is still a death world we're talking about. He survived utterly alone for a decade.

That said, what Sanguinius accomplished on Baal seems to be on the same level as what Mortarion did. Basically they led their respective tribes and fought back the mutant/undead tide that threatened to snuff out human life.

The thing with radiation is that it is anathema to HUMANS. You simply can't build a thriving paradise world like Caliban was en-route to being, when all around you is radiation, which humans can't survive without some serious gear.

Barbarus was certainly not a nice place to live. At least on Baal you didn't run the risk of being turned into a monsters armpit or codpiece.

Yeah I think Barbaras and Baal are pretty equal. I mean poison gas that kills you if you walk in it or radiation that kills you if you walk in it, it's much of a muchness really.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But turning against the Imperium and falling to Chaos are different things.

True -- but we have to consider the character of Dorn's turmoil, which I believe was despair. Turning against the Imperium would have been the outward manifestation of this internal weakness, which Chaos (I would guess Slaanesh especially) could have -- and I think definitely was at the time -- exploiting.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Likely, Vulkan and Russ legions would have aided Dorn, as they also did not want to break up their Legions for the 2nd Founding.

Dorn's motive was, IMO, very different. Vulkan was not enthusiastic because his Legion was shattered. Russ was too hard-headed to do things anyone else's way -- or at least that's the act he would put up. As we know, however, all that viking stuff is cover for cold calculation and the SW never have conformed to the Codex nor made anything but a pro forma effort to spawn successor chapters. I think Dorn, on the other hand, resisted Guilliman because of his guilt and depression and denial over the Emperor's enthronement. In other words, he was on the knife's edge. If a war had broken out, I would bet those who initially sided with Dorn would eventually turn against him as his insanity (and corruption) became more clear. As it actually happen, Dorn backed away from the cliff edge.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It's a miracle that Angron didn't fall before there was a Horus Heresy.

Well, he was sanctioned by the Emperor for insubordination and the Emperor sicked the SW on him.

The Emperor didnt send the SW to sanction Angron actually, Russ took it upon himself to do so.

I must be getting it confused with another incident, mentioned in Betrayal, when the Emperor basically puts the War Hounds (or World Eaters) in time out. I'm not sure if Angron was with them at that point or not.

Oh yeah that's a seperate time I think. In Betrayer, Russ takes it upon himself to sanction the WE; in Betrayal, they get sent away to the fringes of the Galaxy for 100 years or something to murder Xenos. I think Angron was with them, I think it's cos the Emperor found out he'd been putting the nails in legionnaires..?

 Manchu wrote:
True -- but we have to consider the character of Dorn's turmoil, which I believe was despair. Turning against the Imperium would have been the outward manifestation of this internal weakness, which Chaos (I would guess Slaanesh especially) could have -- and I think definitely was at the time -- exploiting.

Or a strength, holding on to the belief in what the Imperium was, before the Heresy, not what it could be as a result of it. I don't believe there was any inner struggle between Dorn and Chaos at that, or any point. External yes, as whilst Guilliman was lording it up back on Terra restructuring, Dorn was out leading crusades taking the battle to the straggling Traitors. And these Crusades were Dorn's way of dealing with what he saw as his own personal failing, being the Emperors death. That implacable loyalty shining through again.

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn's motive was, IMO, very different. Vulkan was not enthusiastic because his Legion was shattered. Russ was too hard-headed to do things anyone else's way -- or at least that's the act he would put up. As we know, however, all that viking stuff is cover for cold calculation and the SW never have conformed to the Codex nor made anything but a pro forma effort to spawn successor chapters. I think Dorn, on the other hand, resisted Guilliman because of his guilt and depression and denial over the Emperor's enthronement. In other words, he was on the knife's edge. If a war had broken out, I would bet those who initially sided with Dorn would eventually turn against him as his insanity (and corruption) became more clear. As it actually happen, Dorn backed away from the cliff edge.

Or sided with him as a result of his actions holding the defense of Terra together. I believe that if it had come to it, Russ would have sided with Dorn. It's quite apparent from the structure of The Rout that they do not hold the Codex with any regard. I think Dorn resisted Guilliman because whilst he was defending the Emperor on Terra, Guilliman was swanning about looking after his own. A case of, what right do you have over me.

But like you say, Dorn, having purged himself of his weakness after the Iron Cage, relented and moved on, realising that he and his Legion had to change along with the Imperium.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh yeah that's a seperate time I think. In Betrayer, Russ takes it upon himself to sanction the WE; in Betrayal, they get sent away to the fringes of the Galaxy for 100 years or something to murder Xenos. I think Angron was with them, I think it's cos the Emperor found out he'd been putting the nails in legionnaires..?

I think this is after the Ghenna Scouring and what you twos is referring to is when Angron wouldn't remove and cease installing the Butchers Nails.

I always wondered, in this part in Betrayer, who the first Primarch was that went to Angron, because it mentions two, Russ being the second I think.

It is unfair to say Guilliman was "lording it up" when in reality he was actually saving the Imperium from collapse ... something Dorn was at the very least, at that point, psychologically (if not also intellectually) incapable of doing. And Dorn neither led nor as far as I am aware did the IF principally contribute to the Scouring. Most importantly, Guilliman's greatest accomplishment was not securing the stability of the Imperium but voluntarily surrendering his rulership over it once he stabilized it. This is the ultimate sign of loyalty, which no other primarch can claim.

Meanwhile, Dorn was spending increasingly long periods inside the Pain Glove. Pretty Slaaneshi if you ask me. Even after he backed down on the Codex issue, he remained nearly insane as proven by the Iron Cage incident. There again, Guilliman and the UM stepped in. This rescue seemed to finally bring Dorn and the IF to their senses. But Dorn's corruption lives on in the BT, who unsurprisingly are incredibly insecure about anything to do with the Warp.

Yeah surely sorting out all the logistical stuff after the Heresy to keep the Imperium intact is a pretty vital job, as vital as chasing traitors around the Galaxy...

 ImAGeek wrote:
as vital as chasing traitors around the Galaxy...

Which the UM also did, and which Guilliman apparently directed ...

Multitasker extraordinaire, although we knew that from KNF anyway.

One of Horus's greates strategic accomplishments was keeping the UM away from Terra. People talk about this as if it was the result of Guilliman being dumb or something. It's funny how a lot of fans don't give Horus the credit he actually deserves. I think this is because McNeill wrote him so poorly.

Agreed, Horus was written pretty badly and he doesn't get enough credit. There's a reason he was the Warmaster, after all.