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 Manchu wrote:
Yep, that is how they got Horus after all. But Horus seems like a more emotional version of Guilliman.

... and a smarter one. Being led on a goose-chase around the galaxy by Alpha Legion while Terra burned was probably the single greatest failing during the Heresy that any of the loyalist Primarchs made, past the Lion sitting on his butt twiddling his thumbs in the same time frame.

How about driving Magnus to join Horus while Terra burned? That was pretty bad, too.

Horus was not necessarily smarter than Guilliman. The main difference between them in Horus's favor, and the reason the Emperor probably made him Warmaster rather than Guilliman, is that Horus had the charisma to inspire Primarchs. Not so much with Guilliman.

Yeah I don't think Horus was smarter than Guillaman. We don't know much about what was happening with the UM later in the heresy yet, there may be a perfectly good reason for that. In KNF it says Guillimqn wasn't made the Warmaster because he didn't get on with his bros, he says he always felt like he had to be apologetic for how successful hed been, and it made it awkward. He had like 4 friends out of 17 brothers. Horus got on with basically anyone.

The Lion couse hes too busy sleeping.

agdog91 wrote:
The Lion couse hes too busy sleeping.

*waiting to see who was winning before he threw his cards in.

 Manchu wrote:
IMO, Guilliman was the least likely to fall. His head rules his heart, moreso than any other primarch. Guilliman would look at Chaos as dispassionately as any other subject and calmly calculate that the costs significantly outweigh the benefits.

The Lion is known for being practically emotionless, cold, and calculating. Guilliman, on the other hand, is as warm emotional as a kind father in comparison.

Saint Sanguinius was the most noble and worthy of all of the primarchs, by far-- even by the words of the fellow primarchs themselves.

I think he was also the furthest from falling, as well. None of them were incorruptible, but he was by far the least.

Guilliman was the most human.

This is a problem, since his bros were largely not-human. He got along with pretty much all the sensible military and more human brothers. It makes sense that he was best buds with Dorn, admired Sanguinius (like everyone else), had respect for the Lion, who was an intellectual and confident leader, Ferrus who was a fair but demanding guy, while having respect for the Khan who handled being a warrior with dignity.

The others?
Horus was a show-off, but Guilliman respected his accomplishments.
Fulgrim was an fop with obvious issues.
Lorgar and Magnus were mystics, recluses and weirdos.
Conrad was a murdering ass.
Angron was a murdering ass.
Russ is an animal who keeps trying to be a big man. The Khan was at least reserved.
Mortarion was a distant, cold jerk.
Alpharius always was trying to be clever and mysterious for it's own sake.
Perturabo was a brooding ass prone to stupid rages.
Corax and Vulkan just did their own thing.

Sanguinius was not 'furthest from falling'. He was almost sort of guilted into it, with all of that red angel nonsense.

With no external conditions, I would say Vulkan. He is strong, stubborn, and bowed down the the Emperor even after he won against him. Vulkan, and the Salamanders, care too much about the people they serve to put them in jeopardy, making him a bad fit for Khorne or Slaanesh. Also, the Promethean Cult would reject Tzeentch's scheming and the corruption of Nurgle.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would place Leman Russ second, because he does not bow down to anyone (besides the Emperor). While the Space Wolves are rebellious, they would go Renegade instead of Chaos.

 ImAGeek wrote:
he says he always felt like he had to be apologetic for how successful hed been

"SORRY I'M SO AWESOME HATERZ LOLOLOLOL"

How could they not like him?

 dusara217 wrote:
The Lion is known for being practically emotionless, cold, and calculating.

Tell that to Luther.

 Melissia wrote:
most noble and worthy

Let's face it, Vulkan is just as noble but nowhere near as pretty. I guess blondes do have more fun (even when they have raven tresses). Guilliman agrees with you by the way, or so he said.

 Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:
With no external conditions, I would say Vulkan.

Like Sanguinius, his compassion could be twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

 Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:
I would place Leman Russ second, because he does not bow down to anyone (besides the Emperor)

The same could be said of Horus.

Killionaire wrote:Guilliman was the most human.

This is a problem, since his bros were largely not-human. He got along with pretty much all the sensible military and more human brothers. It makes sense that he was best buds with Dorn, admired Sanguinius (like everyone else), had respect for the Lion, who was an intellectual and confident leader, Ferrus who was a fair but demanding guy, while having respect for the Khan who handled being a warrior with dignity.

The others?
Horus was a show-off, but Guilliman respected his accomplishments.
Fulgrim was an fop with obvious issues.
Lorgar and Magnus were mystics, recluses and weirdos.
Conrad was a murdering ass.
Angron was a murdering ass.
Russ is an animal who keeps trying to be a big man. The Khan was at least reserved.
Mortarion was a distant, cold jerk.
Alpharius always was trying to be clever and mysterious for it's own sake.
Perturabo was a brooding ass prone to stupid rages.
Corax and Vulkan just did their own thing.

Sanguinius was not 'furthest from falling'. He was almost sort of guilted into it, with all of that red angel nonsense.

Vulkan or Sanguinius were probably the most human. Vulkan is a well known humanitarian and very caring, and Sanguinius just is very human.

dusara217 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
IMO, Guilliman was the least likely to fall. His head rules his heart, moreso than any other primarch. Guilliman would look at Chaos as dispassionately as any other subject and calmly calculate that the costs significantly outweigh the benefits.

The Lion is known for being practically emotionless, cold, and calculating. Guilliman, on the other hand, is as warm emotional as a kind father in comparison.

Guilliman is said in KNF to be very hard to warm to, is actually fairly cold and analytical.

True. Vulkan was noble. But correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't as accomplished.

And Manchu, I guess they don't like him
Because of how successful he was? He had 500 worlds under his control, and the second best (I think, after the Luna Wolves) record for compliances. He was what they all should've been. That's why Guilliman was chosen to rebuke Lorgar, to set an example, although that misfired. So I guess he was like the more successful brother you don't really like. His only proper friends were Horus, Sanguinius, Dorn and another who I forget.

I feel like Vulkan would do almost anything to save a large number of innocents though. If the right situation arose by Tzeentch (like, take up this daemon blade or 5 worlds will die kinda thing), Vulkan would gladly give himself up to save them.

But that's just how noble as hell he is.

 ImAGeek wrote:
So I guess he was like the more successful brother you don't really like.

I don't buy it. The glory of Horus was more splendorous.

I think they didn't like Guilliman because he embodied everything about their father that chafed them while Horus embodied everything about their father that they admired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Vulkan would gladly give himself up to save them.

Sounds like a deal Nurgle would make, actually.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Yep, that is how they got Horus after all. But Horus seems like a more emotional version of Guilliman.

... and a smarter one. Being led on a goose-chase around the galaxy by Alpha Legion while Terra burned was probably the single greatest failing during the Heresy that any of the loyalist Primarchs made, past the Lion sitting on his butt twiddling his thumbs in the same time frame.

Yep, destroying the Night Lords = sitting on his butt. Reading the lore is hard, right?

 Manchu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So I guess he was like the more successful brother you don't really like.

I don't buy it. The glory of Horus was more splendorous.

I think they didn't like Guilliman because he embodied everything about their father that chafed them while Horus embodied everything about their father that they admired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Vulkan would gladly give himself up to save them.

Sounds like a deal Nurgle would make, actually.

I guess horus was just more likeable then. Have you read Know No Fear? It explains it all pretty well, I can't really remember the details though.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Yep, that is how they got Horus after all. But Horus seems like a more emotional version of Guilliman.

... and a smarter one. Being led on a goose-chase around the galaxy by Alpha Legion while Terra burned was probably the single greatest failing during the Heresy that any of the loyalist Primarchs made, past the Lion sitting on his butt twiddling his thumbs in the same time frame.

Yep, destroying the Night Lords = sitting on his butt. Reading the lore is hard, right?

Getting smart at people for debating the backstory behind small plastic figures. The joy these forums bring to me know no end.

Alright alright, back on-topic now folks.

Just because Primarch A was clever doesn't make Primarch B dumb, after all.

On the flipside of things.

I think of all the loyalists, Russ was the most likely. He was right on the edge of Khorne-dom and easily played left and right to make Magnus join Chaos. If the Chaos Gods really wanted him and they had more time, they could've easily got him to flip.

Also I just hate Russ as a Magnus fan. Russ was the biggest hypocrite. "Sorcery is bad! But these are runepriests! "Mutations are bad! These are Wulfen!"

Pfft.. Space Furries.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
On the flipside of things.

I think of all the loyalists, Russ was the most likely. He was right on the edge of Khorne-dom and easily played left and right to make Magnus join Chaos. If the Chaos Gods really wanted him and they had more time, they could've easily got him to flip.

Also I just hate Russ as a Magnus fan. Russ was the biggest hypocrite. "Sorcery is bad! But these are runepriests! "Mutations are bad! These are Wulfen!"

Pfft.. Space Furries.

As a Space Pup hater, I totally agree. I also think BA are one bad day away from being Khorney's. Genetic freaks

"SORRY I'M SO AWESOME HATERZ LOLOLOLOL"

How could they not like him?

it sounds a bit odd but I think I understand the actual idea of akwardness due to his sucesses and having to be apologetic for it. Ever had friends whom just wheren't as sucessful as you? whom you needed to be careful when talking about your sucesses for fear of annoying them? I imagine that was the problem Gulliman had (only worse cause primarchs tend to be pretty extreme) it does explain his friends as well, Horus, Sanguins, Dorn, all the more sucessful primarchs. the ones whom wouldn't instantly become envious of his sucesses if he happened to mention "so I'm having some problems incorperating the 40 worlds I brought under compliance last month"

But, again, Horus was more successful than Guilliman and got along well with the others. So maybe the problem was with Guilliman rather than everyone else.

Yeah the problem was Guilliman, that's what I meant from the start, sorry if that wasn't very clear. He didn't get on with his brothers because he felt awkward for how successful he'd been, and I guess didn't know how to act around them, where as Horus made you forget he was more successful than you.

So it's not that he's awkward because he's so successful. He's just awkward.

One issue is that Guilliman was more successful than even Horus in a number of ways. Horus may have conquered more worlds, but Guilliman made more productive worlds, with zero internal unrest, and huge industrial/manpower outputs.

He also had the most marines, trained to the highest standards (much better per-soldier it's suggested than the iron warriors and word bearers for example).

His human modesty is a lot more normal than the Lion's brooding distance for example. His methods worked, and were building a much better Imperium than whatever Curze, Alpharius and Perturabo were doing.

He didn't really seem to have beef with Russ, Khan or Magnus, who while he may not have liked, weren't really messing things up. They were doing a specific purpose, like hunting down particularly nasty enemies. But Curze and Angron were definitely just making things worse.

--

Horus getting along with everyone was because he was flashy. He was an adventurer, who was personally very involved with war, and neurotic about post-war lack of glory.

Guilliman was a statesman, who was happy to build the best planets and imperium possible, and knew that doing stuff like that would always land a job. So he didn't really care so much about glory, or even seeking the approval of his crazier brothers. He's also probably awkward because unlike everyone else, he had a /Mom/, and a Dad who was actually a really good guy who he looked up to, before Empy showed up. (Almost) everyone else either had no parents but a tribe/group raising them, animal parents, or evil parents who had to die.

Yeah, but the success doesn't help

And yeah Killionaire I agree that he's probably overall more successful than Horus.

I think he did like Russ, I think Russ was one of his 'Dauntless Few', four Primarchs who he thought if he worked with any of them they could win any war. Ferrus was definitely one, I can't remember the others. And he likes the Khan too, he just doesn't think he's overly reliable.

I really like Guillaman haha.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
On the flipside of things.

I think of all the loyalists, Russ was the most likely. He was right on the edge of Khorne-dom and easily played left and right to make Magnus join Chaos. If the Chaos Gods really wanted him and they had more time, they could've easily got him to flip.

Also I just hate Russ as a Magnus fan. Russ was the biggest hypocrite. "Sorcery is bad! But these are runepriests! "Mutations are bad! These are Wulfen!"

Pfft.. Space Furries.

As a Space Pup hater, I totally agree. I also think BA are one bad day away from being Khorney's. Genetic freaks

Seconded, I feel like Sanguinus was also pretty close, while he was the most pure supposedly he was also secretive and I'd expect the flaw would be exploitable by his foes.

 Melissia wrote:
True. Vulkan was noble. But correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't as accomplished.

He's more accomplished then Sanguinius. Baal is still a radioactive godforsaken wasteland. Vulkan meanwhile actually managed to improve his deathworld- kicking out the Dark Eldar, and I think he may have had a hand in building the seven citadels.

 Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:
With no external conditions, I would say Vulkan. He is strong, stubborn, and bowed down the the Emperor even after he won against him. Vulkan, and the Salamanders, care too much about the people they serve to put them in jeopardy, making him a bad fit for Khorne or Slaanesh. Also, the Promethean Cult would reject Tzeentch's scheming and the corruption of Nurgle.

This is why I chose Vulkan.

Humility is a rare trait among the primarchs... especially in one who actually managed to beat the Emperor at something.