Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I like wyches and they are good at tying things up.However, They really lack what I envision them to do. As far as troops go I usually roll with 20+ kabalite warriors, covering that area. Instead of shelving my wyches, what if I used the models for Lhams instead. I do have an archon.

10 Lhams in a raider.

Initiative 5, poison 2+,.... and with 6's causing instadeath.
They are the same freakin cost as a wych.
Oh, even better, they get 2 attacks base because in their wargear they do have splinter pistols. +1 for charging obviously, so 30 attacks? 5 statistically for instakill? ( I think that's right)
I play a grey knights player frequently who uses 10 paladins. My wyches usually tie him up for a bit after my venoms cut him down to size. after the wyches die (they took 1 or two with them), I move in with my archon and incubi to finish them off. However, these Lhams seem REALLY legit! I could potential cause way more damage then the wyches ever could.

I know they sucked BAD last codex, but I might have found some insane use for them. Cheap and expendable...used to widdle down a deathstar or semi deathstar unit.

Comments?

I'm right there with you - I love Wyches, I love Wych Cults, but unfortunately Wyches are a bag of crap in this edition, so you've got to use them pretty intelligently or not at all. While Lhameans are probably better overall than Wyches, there are couple of things to keep in mind:

- Lhameans don't get combat drugs, which means they miss out on what could potentially be some good bonuses, although they have one extra attack base and they don't need strength to wound as much as Wyches do.
- Lhameans don't get grenades, meaning you're still going to eat a lot of fire on Overwatch, which is one of the problems Wyches have (I don't have my Codex in front of me, but I believe that is correct)
- Lhameans don't get the 4++ that Wyches get in close combat, so while they're more likely to 'do the deeps' as it were, they're more likely to get chopped up in return, as well. If you want to tarpit a unit for a while, stick to Wyches.

So basically, Lhameans are more dangerous, less sturdy (who thought it was possible?) Wyches. You're having the same problems in Overwatch but your circumventing one of things that makes them as well as lot of DE units crappy, the S3. If you're going to run them, I would throw in a few Sslyth for the 2W FNP, so they can tank some wounds and eat Overwatch. Not to mention throw in some S5 attacks when push comes to shove, as well putting out a respectable amount of ranged firepower with the shardcarbines. For 30 points over the price of a squad of 10 Lhamean, you can throw in two Sslyth. Keep in mind, you won't be getting any benefit from the T5 of the Sslyth unless they're the majority of the squad - If you run 6 Sslyth with 4 Lhameans, you have a MASSIVELY more survivable squad, but at the price of a lot of 2+ poison ID hits.

I think the general argument against running solely Lhameans would be that there are things that would last longer and do better than Lhameans (Grotesques and Incubi come to mind). However both of those options are quite a bit more expensive (roughly double the cost or more, depending on which). It's funny, I was actually just over at TheDarkCity forum and they were talking about how Lhameans/Sslyth are a good alternative to the classic HQ+Grotesques. It sounds like for your purpose of softening up a dangerous squad for your killy HQ, Lhameans might fit the bill. They'll also be good against MC's with the 2+ poison and ID on 6's, although you're playing DE and you have a truly ridiculous amount of Poison to deal with MC's already. However, keep in mind that unless you kill them with your first strike, they will get comprehensively disintegrated the moment the enemy gets to attack.

If I were to run them, I'd either do 5 in a Venom for a 50 pt. 'Soften them up/MC-killer' squad, or a mix of Lhameans and Sslyth in a Raider or Venom for a more multipurpose unit. Just my two cents. Although you have inspired me to try this when I play on Friday!


Found this thread on TheDarkCity as well which brings up the same question: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11396-lhamean-over-wyches?highlight=Lhamean



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since I work night shift and I've literally had all night to look into this, here's what I've found:

Shot for shot, Incubi are going to be better if you want a good well-rounded unit that does more damage than wyches.
Let's compare 100 pts of Incubi (5) and 100 pts of Lhameans (10) against a basic T4 3+ Marine, your likely opponent. Disregarding the whole getting into assault and surviving overwatch thing....

Incubi will get 3 attacks on the charge for 15 attacks total. Hitting on 3+ (10 hits) and wounding on 4+ (5 wounds) will kill 5 marines on the charge, in the first round of combat
Lhameans will get 3 attacks on the charge for 30 attacks total. Hitting on 4+ (15 hits) and wounding on 2+ (12.5 wounds) and after the 3+ armor save (4.125 wounds) will kill ~4 marines on the charge, on average.

Again, that's not factoring in Overwatch, of which Lhameans will suffer far, far worse from. With no real save to speak of until FNP on turn 2/3, you're going to lose a lot of Lhameans, which is going to make that 4.125 wounds go even lower. Neither have grenades, but Incubi have 3+ armor and AP2, allowing them to deal with Terminators and even glance light vehicles (which you should never be in a position to do, but any port in a storm). Additionally, at 100 pts your squad will fit in either a Venom or a Raider, so you have more options as well. You lose the potential Instant Death, but the flexibility and survivability that Incubi give you is a fair trade-off, in my opinion. I really like the idea of "Lhyches" but it seems like there are just better things to fill that niche. They're still great as a dirt cheap HQ choice, that's for damn sure.

A great perspective! Thanks for taking the time to write all that and I agree. Over watch could be a problem for the Lhyches and honestly the idea of Sslyth or More incubi is much more appealing. I have 1 squad of 4 incubi that I use for escorting my archon around. They work well together. Without buying more models though I think I might just try the Lhams next game to see how they do. It's that poison 2+ that is so freakin tempting. I plan on getting more incubi. At first the Sslyth wasn't appealing to me due to the model itself but it's actually kind of growing on me a bit. And they have 2 wounds with toughness five. Imagine 10 Sslyth in a raider, 30 shots shard carbine or 10 sslyth attached with an archon in a webway portal deepstriking behind the enemy. Might cause some serious problems. The more I keep looking at this court of the archon.... the more potential I see. The fact they don't need to be with the archon and can count as their own unit is crazy,

Let me know how your game friday goes! I have game night on Saturday evening so Ill post about it after.

No problem! I'm glad I could help. Having the models is definitely an issue, and an advantage of Wyches is they can sub for lhameans very easily, whereas Incubi you really need the actual models. Court of the Archon is pretty damn good this edition, I'm excited to see what kind of things it can do. I'll definitely let you know if I'm able to make Lhameans work in my list. I'll be interested to see how your game on Saturday goes as well!

Numbers are not a worse save mechanics than armor. I'd even say - a more universal one since they stack with cover and don't care about ap of weapons.
It's all situational.
Lhameans feel more of a glass hammer and will shine against higher toughness targets like MC and Spawns or low armor save targets like hordes. Fighting something like a blob of boyz, Incubi will kill much less and will recieve more damage in return.

I'm actually planning to use a squad of Lhamaeans soon, as I've made a somewhat silly list with various melee units:
- 4 Incubi with a Klaivex, joined by a Succubus with Glaive
- 9 Lhamaeans joined by a Coven Haemonculus
- 4 Coven Grotesques with an Aberration, joined by another Coven Haemonculus

We'll see which unit does best.

 vipoid wrote:
I'm actually planning to use a squad of Lhamaeans soon, as I've made a somewhat silly list with various melee units:
- 4 Incubi with a Klaivex, joined by a Succubus with Glaive
- 9 Lhamaeans joined by a Coven Haemonculus
- 4 Coven Grotesques with an Aberration, joined by another Coven Haemonculus

We'll see which unit does best.

Consider swapping the Succubus with the Coven Haemonculus so she can join the Grotesques. The Grotesques don't gain to much from the Haemonculus apart from faster IWND and the Haemonculus himself won't help the unit out a great deal. The Succubus fills a niche Grots need, low AP attacks, she has high I for sweeping advances and can carry Armour of Misery. When combined with the coven special rule that puts any unit within 6 at -3 Leadership. Try make that Leadership check!

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I'm actually planning to use a squad of Lhamaeans soon, as I've made a somewhat silly list with various melee units:
- 4 Incubi with a Klaivex, joined by a Succubus with Glaive
- 9 Lhamaeans joined by a Coven Haemonculus
- 4 Coven Grotesques with an Aberration, joined by another Coven Haemonculus

We'll see which unit does best.

Consider swapping the Succubus with the Coven Haemonculus so she can join the Grotesques. The Grotesques don't gain to much from the Haemonculus apart from faster IWND and the Haemonculus himself won't help the unit out a great deal. The Succubus fills a niche Grots need, low AP attacks, she has high I for sweeping advances and can carry Armour of Misery. When combined with the coven special rule that puts any unit within 6 at -3 Leadership. Try make that Leadership check!

I'd actually planned to have that Coven Haemonculus as my Warlord - with the Grots acting as his bodyguard. He also had Vexator mask to slow down MCs or characters while the grots smash them.

I could put him with the Incubi, but he'll slow them down due to lack of fleet (the other one has the Sump). Do you think it's still worth it? Also, do you think I should still use him as my Warlord, or are you thinking that I should use the Succubus instead?

I personally use a Succubus leading Grots a lot, and i can say without a doubt she helps the unit far more then a Haemonculus. I've had assaults against tactical marines that despite having a massive amount of attacks at high strength, i kill very few due to hot armour saves. The Succubus assures you win that combat. Despite Toughness 3, she can survive better then the Haemonculi. Haemonculi have a 6+/5++, by turn 2/3 (when she should be in assault) she also has a 4+/5++ as well as a 4++, better combat stats and is likely to kill the opposition before they strike. She should make a better warlord.

I'd argue that the second Haemonculi isn't really needed, but there is never anything bad about giving Incubi fearless and Zealot.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I personally use a Succubus leading Grots a lot, and i can say without a doubt she helps the unit far more then a Haemonculus. I've had assaults against tactical marines that despite having a massive amount of attacks at high strength, i kill very few due to hot armour saves. The Succubus assures you win that combat. Despite Toughness 3, she can survive better then the Haemonculi. Haemonculi have a 6+/5++, by turn 2/3 (when she should be in assault) she also has a 4+/5++ as well as a 4++, better combat stats and is likely to kill the opposition before they strike. She should make a better warlord.

I see your point.

Shame, I like Haemonculi.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I'd argue that the second Haemonculi isn't really needed, but there is never anything bad about giving Incubi fearless and Zealot.

Well, he's there because I'm using a Coven detachment - which have to include 2 Haemonculi.

I could use 5 Incubi, and put the second Haemonculus with the Succubus and Grotesques. Would that be better?

Actually, on this note, do you think Coven grotesques are worth it over regular ones? Or, are regular ones ok with an accompanying Succubus?

Oh, they are worth it over the normal ones. Because they still grant +1 to both power from pain charts, so the unit they are with get's access to FNP and Furious charge like with a regular Haemonculi, but they also get Fearless turn 1 (great!) as well as Zealot (confers to unit) a bit later on. If you are taking Haemonculi anyway, there is nor reason not to take coven ones.

Having the extra Haemonculi in the Grotesque unit wouldn't be a bad idea, as then the Grots would have access to IWND quite early, which is extremely good for them.

Do consider swapping your Coven detachment for the Grotesque formation, that is what i have done. 2 units of superior Grotesques (Every roll on the chart is good) with one unit lead by the Haemonculi and the other lead by a Succubus makes a terrific assault threat and eliminates the need for the second, less useful Haemonculi. The coven detachment can be fun, but it really gets good when you look at the formations. I personally started making use of the Grotesque one and the Dark Artisan formation and they have done wonders.

I've watched a lot of skaredcast on YouTube and I suggest any DE player check out some of his tactical stuff. A few things I've learned is that coven detachments really beef up our glass hammer affect. The most appealing to me in the coven book is the grotesquerie. I'd also give them raiders. There's also the scalpel squadron. It allows you to basically run a null deployment for your entire force except for the two units of wracks in venoms coming on turn 1. Even better, if you manage to kill any unit with those two wrack squads in venoms, you gain d3 victory points for first blood instead of 1 point. Just need to keep them hidden or in cover so you aren't tabled. I've seen it completely destroy an opponent when turn two all your venoms, flyers, everything is deep striking in from all over the place. This is something I'm definitely going to try. Also in the coven book is another formation, I forgot the name, but it consists of a heamonculus, Cronus, and talos. Pretty much aimed at deep striking anywhere and forcing the opponent to deal with a very tough unit for the rest of the game if they want to have any chance of victory. I just picked up my coven book so I will be incorporating them. I think once we dark eldar players start building lists past 1500 points we can really make it easier on ourselves by coven detachments. The benefits you get is insane. For example, with the grotesquerie, coven book gives a seperate power from pain chart, giving the grotesques fearless on turn 2! No longer would you need them accompanied by an hq to boost their crap leadership.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Oh, they are worth it over the normal ones. Because they still grant +1 to both power from pain charts, so the unit they are with get's access to FNP and Furious charge like with a regular Haemonculi, but they also get Fearless turn 1 (great!) as well as Zealot (confers to unit) a bit later on. If you are taking Haemonculi anyway, there is nor reason not to take coven ones.

Sorry, I was actualy asking if Coven grotesques were worth it over regular ones?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Do consider swapping your Coven detachment for the Grotesque formation, that is what i have done. 2 units of superior Grotesques (Every roll on the chart is good) with one unit lead by the Haemonculi and the other lead by a Succubus makes a terrific assault threat and eliminates the need for the second, less useful Haemonculi. The coven detachment can be fun, but it really gets good when you look at the formations. I personally started making use of the Grotesque one and the Dark Artisan formation and they have done wonders.

Yeah, I rarely ever take the actual Covenite detachment - the formations just seem so much more useful and mostly free of 'baggage'.

The only reason I was using it was because I was trying to have one of each combat unit, rather than just using grotesques.

I've also had considerable success with the Grotesquerie, and marginal success with Dark Artisan.