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I've finally got the dataslate for the tyranic war veterans now and it looks like an interesting concept cept I'm not sure how to run it or what is needed to make it truely work.

It basically lets you have up to 6 storm talons that you can have start on the board infiltrated but you have to buy essentially a tacitcal squad with hellfire rounds and chaplin crassius (the T6 2w chaplin along with using ultramarine tactics) You are not allowed drop pod but can take a rhino for the squad.

6 storm talons are a hefty points investment but it can be quite effective in my opinion. I always liked the concept of upgunned little flyers going around shooting things.

A few questions then comes up:

Can I do a double CAD (for most major tournament ruling) to have 6 talons from the tyranic war vets and then another 3 from a 2nd SM faction for total of 9 storm talons?

Would a skyshield be overkill to have yet a storm raven or fire raptor or storm eagle roc on turn 1 as well? I'd have barely any ground presence but it'd be an insane 10 flyers to throw down with 7 things shooting by turn 1. Too much air?

I know the above is extremely unbalaced but fun idea (also breaks my wallet lol)

For a more balanced build, what are good alternative builds for TAC?

I was thinking of the old SM bike squads for ground presence or perhaps ally in SW for TWC ground presence

Alternatively, BA with fast moving razorback spam with MSU might be the thing. Heavy flamers for hordes and assault cannon razorbacks to threaten most things and just be annoying obj sec camping. I'd imgine something around 20+ kill points to get through before I'm tabled.

Perhaps go Ada Lance + tyranic vets for both ground and air killy power but low objective grabbing?

What do you guys think (before I buy my 4th , 5th and 6th storm talons lol)

Tyrannic war vets is situational because really your buying into it for preferred enemy nids and really nids are not a widespread plague of armies out there.

The same can be said for relentless hunt, you buy it so you can get a land raider with hatred and pe csm but you won't always be fighting Csm.

Imo that formation is far surpassed by the smaller more compact ones like stormwing or the reclusiam cmd squad. Simply because your not swearing your soul away to get some special rules.

I'm actually playing a low power 2000pt game with my Tyrannic Vets tomorrow. Nothing too fancy, just four with an Ultramarines Librarian and Cassius in a Blood Angel Razorback and a single Talon. I've typically just used them as a center anchor to be annoying but I'll admit my Ultramarines list is friggin archaic.

A better example would be jy2's tests using it against things like Pentyrant formations (and losing) and other builds he tests out. From his more in depth examples I can say I don't put as much stock in it as I used to. A fun gimmick, but not tournament winning apparently. Consider that the Tyranids always had their flyers on the table Turn 1 and Flyrants are not auto win. They're good, but not the best ever.

Keep it modest with Blood Angel or, as you said, TWC allies. Something that's 12" movement. I wouldn't ever sink more than 750pts into Saint Tylus though. It's not THAT strong of an option.

It's used for stormtalons that start on boaard. It's effective.

 ionusx wrote:
Tyrannic war vets is situational because really your buying into it for preferred enemy nids and really nids are not a widespread plague of armies out there.

The same can be said for relentless hunt, you buy it so you can get a land raider with hatred and pe csm but you won't always be fighting Csm.

Imo that formation is far surpassed by the smaller more compact ones like stormwing or the reclusiam cmd squad. Simply because your not swearing your soul away to get some special rules.

Lol I actually forgot they had perferred enemy nids. I was more working from the lines of the on board turn 1 flyers and going with the minimal number of foot troops. I never cared much for the ultramarine faction traits actually which kind of makes me wonder if it's going to be trumping my standard iron hands / scars/ raven guard tactics.

It's used for stormtalons that start on boaard. It's effective.

that and also as a 1st round flyer force, unless vs penta-flyrants, I should be able to beta strike most other air forces since I know I can get off the board top of turn 2 before enemy flyers come on. Or if I'm going second, I can infltrate them to be able to be in bad range for the enemy flyers.

Question - since they are on the table on turn 1, can I fly off the board turn 1? I never quite figured that part of the rules out.

Yes, but why would you? Fly around and drown enemies in assault cannon fire. The fact that you're there from the start allows you to out-maneuvre enemy flyers that aren't there till 2-d turn at very least.

 koooaei wrote:
Yes, but why would you? Fly around and drown enemies in assault cannon fire. The fact that you're there from the start allows you to out-maneuvre enemy flyers that aren't there till 2-d turn at very least.

Mostly because of the skilled flyers generals I have in the local meta and comming on exteme angles is very common around here makes it harder to just out-maneuver unless we're on hammer and anvil. Going 2nd would mean that I'll be getting shot up by the enemy flyers that are comming on. Things change if they also are on the board too as in penta-flyrants but other than that, by going second and flying off the board means I'll get to on-going reserves hit the enemy flyers (if they come on I get that it's a risk but often I've seen flyer heavy lists use modifiers to help them get on turn 2 and even without aids, a 3+ natural means that I'll win that wager more than 60% of the time.) when they come on. Just means that my ground presence will end up eating more fire.

That kind of set up aims to have air superiority and win through turn 3-5 activities and is more like a beta-strike kind of force use though going first would then mean I can use alpha strike and move off by top of turn 2. It's basically added flexibility

Mostly as going heavy into storm talons, they will be the bulk of my firepower and my ground troops will be mainly to just hold on and resist shooting/survive attacks through MSU or speed / hide in ruins till threats are removed. The list has to work towards protecting the storm talons as much as using them to kill.

Yes, added flexibility is good. Nothing prevents you from doing this.

Indeed. You can't come on from turn one but nothing stops you exiting the board turn one into ongoing reserves.

The Saint Tylus Defence Force is a nice list and works well as an army core.

Yes, Tyrannic War Veteran squads lack options, but they're really not bad - 90% of the time sternguard only ever fire hellfire too.

Note that you can't, I don't think, take a rhino. The Tyrannic War Veterans transport options are the various patterns of Land Raider.


I wouldn't take a skyshield. Ready To Launch is a good idea in theory, but you have to spend your first turn in hover mode, so there's a damn good chance of getting shot out of the sky, even if you stay on the pad with the shield up - since most flyers aren't very tough when Hard To Hit is taken away from them. The investment for a seventh fighter that's not as good strikes me as too much.

If you want to go really fighter heavy, I'd take:

Saint Tylus Defence Force:
-Chaplain Cassius
-Tyrannic War Veterans Squad with Meltabombs
-Stormtalons (in numbers and armament to taste)

Astartes Storm Wing:
-Stormraven (Starts carrying the Veterans & Cassius)
-Two additional Stormtalons

This gives you a force of up to six talons starting on the board, with three more fighters coming in as reserves - its the closest I can think of to a workable pure fighter army



If using the Saint Tylus force, it may be worth having a couple of extra squads of veterans. Remember that they, and only they, benefit from Pummeled by Fire - don't underestimate how scary hellfire rounds with Ignores Cover can be in the right situation (oh, look, a toxicrene).

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed. You can't come on from turn one but nothing stops you exiting the board turn one into ongoing reserves.

The Saint Tylus Defence Force is a nice list and works well as an army core.

Yes, Tyrannic War Veteran squads lack options, but they're really not bad - 90% of the time sternguard only ever fire hellfire too.

Note that you can't, I don't think, take a rhino. The Tyrannic War Veterans transport options are the various patterns of Land Raider.


I wouldn't take a skyshield. Ready To Launch is a good idea in theory, but you have to spend your first turn in hover mode, so there's a damn good chance of getting shot out of the sky, even if you stay on the pad with the shield up - since most flyers aren't very tough when Hard To Hit is taken away from them. The investment for a seventh fighter that's not as good strikes me as too much.

If you want to go really fighter heavy, I'd take:

Saint Tylus Defence Force:
-Chaplain Cassius
-Tyrannic War Veterans Squad with Meltabombs
-Stormtalons (in numbers and armament to taste)

Astartes Storm Wing:
-Stormraven (Starts carrying the Veterans & Cassius)
-Two additional Stormtalons

This gives you a force of up to six talons starting on the board, with three more fighters coming in as reserves - its the closest I can think of to a workable pure fighter army



If using the Saint Tylus force, it may be worth having a couple of extra squads of veterans. Remember that they, and only they, benefit from Pummeled by Fire - don't underestimate how scary hellfire rounds with Ignores Cover can be in the right situation (oh, look, a toxicrene).

Wow I totally missed that rhino bit, ya, thanks for pointing that out. I forgot that to buy them a ride otherwise would take a land raider. On the other hand, the skyshield is actually kind of a safe spot in some ways for the storm talons as well since they also have to start on the board as in hover mode.

In the case of going 2nd against say Tau or even eldar with enough serpent shields, with enough ignore cover, I can lose quite a few little birds before I get to go which would be problematic. As a flyer on base, I can't hide them very effectively unless I infiltrate them way into my own backfield which I guess would work since I can get around to threaten most things in most deployments other than hammer and anvil. Having the skyshield would be a nice alternative for invul saves is kind of a way out I suppose.

Parking a fire raptor on top of it would #1 be a good source of fire power, or it'd be a big fire magnet and while I can lose it to serpent shield spam, the return fire from all the storm talons on unshielded serpents (est would take around 4 WS to kill the raptor with 4++ on the landing shield) I should be able to neuter a good portion of those ws's for the rest of the game.

The storm raven like you pointed out is a good choice too since I can throw the min squad sized tyranid war vets inside for their protection and and possibly threaten something squishy in the backfield later (though I'd rather much just hide the 4 guys in behind LOS over an objective) (knowing this going in, I'd probably put at least one obj behind some LOS of the enemy majority's army)

I'm just trying to find a good balance. Due to the points costs already with just 6 storm talons and the formation itself (some 882 points without upgrades - and face it, I'll probably end up paying for the skyhammer missles at the very least if not lascannons on at least 2-3 of the birds for vs 3+ armor on flying things - so really looking at 972 points already)

Out of a 1850 points army, I'm not left with a whole bunch. 878 points is gonna make a pretty bare bones force on the ground lol. I think max anti-air would look like fire raptor + skyshield + 3 more stormtalons - 203 spare points to put towards another HQ (probably a cheap librarian hiding in the back) and some 2 scouts sniper sqads with some camo cloaks lol.

Really, it's down to what I can do with 878 points to really complement this madness.


Edit - something else just came to mind - coteaz would be a good fit, and with 878 points, I can get some decent amount of bodies on the ground with some psychic dice along with another inquisitor and cheap psykers. Plasma cannon servitors with coteaz (who can all sit on the skyshield too for 4++ and good line of sight) would be a good drop pod deterrent along with reducing risk or improving my steal the initiative. I just won't have more than 6 aircraft... unless I get some 3 valkyries in there....hrm...... lolololol though only 3 ground units + 3 transports most likely though would fit in the role I suppose. One xenos inq + melee henchmen unit for counter assault.

Thoughts?

Also, does gate of infinity trigger "I've been expecting you?" from torunament rulings that's been in the past, not really interested in the RAI/RAW debate, just wondering if anyone's ruled on it already. Thinking of trying to protect myself from the daigocent star along with just other deep striking but can run afterwards units like GK or heck even tau and eldar can do it too though it's mostly cause I've seen clever folks deep strike below the skyshield or just out of LOS really close to the far border from coteaz out of my LOS and then run under the shield to prevent fire. They then run up and assault me next turn.

Does anyone with the data slate know if Cassius needs to deploy attached to the Vets? Or could he attach to an allies unit like TWC or something else?

 InquisitorMack wrote:
Does anyone with the data slate know if Cassius needs to deploy attached to the Vets? Or could he attach to an allies unit like TWC or something else?

There's no restriction, so theoretically he can attach to any Battle Brothers squad that's not unit type (Monstrous Creature). In practice - he's infantry, so attaching him to cavalry and slowing them down may not be the best plan.

He is a very good support character, though. Zealot and Preferred Enemy (Tyranids) both confer to the squad, which is sufficient to make even fairly so-so units damned effective.

Also, does gate of infinity trigger "I've been expecting you?" from torunament rulings that's been in the past, not really interested in the RAI/RAW debate, just wondering if anyone's ruled on it already. Thinking of trying to protect myself from the daigocent star along with just other deep striking but can run afterwards units like GK or heck even tau and eldar can do it too though it's mostly cause I've seen clever folks deep strike below the skyshield or just out of LOS really close to the far border from coteaz out of my LOS

I don't know, I'll be honest. I'd have said no because it's specifically against 'arriving from reserves' not 'arriving by deep strike'.

Cassius is kind of a funny choice to play with. I've underestimated his T6 a few times. I've had one GK strike squad when fighting him in the past assault him and thought that I can chop him up easy since I killed down to him and like 1 marine but they became T6 and hung on grimly since I didn't cast hammerhand due to warp charges used elsewhere.

They ended up dying eventually vs 5 strike squad but it took some 6 rounds of combat lol.

Lol ok so a quick update. I went with a test game using 6 storm talons + fire raptor + skyshield and 3 more storm talons ( proxied of course)

I told my opponent what I was bringing so it'd be a game anyway. I also told him he can't just bring 5 hive tyrants (though maybe next time)

So he brings in ork horde instead >.<
Nothing but lootas and boyz and 3 dakkajets with the usual supershoota upgrades.

we ended up playing regular malestrom

T1 - I got to go first, put chaplin + the vets behind LOS where they will sit all game on obj 2 (which did come up once)

All 6 talons went ahead and infitrated on or near the skyshield (in case he seized). Raptor was on the pad. The sniper scouts infitrated behind LOS terrain. The single librarian was close by to see the planes but was mostly just trying to hide. The other sniper scouts sat on objective 1 inside a ruins on my side of the board (as there was no space left to infiltrate on the ork's side of the board)

The orks were spread out in a super giant mass (some orks were distinctly imperial guard shaped but I was assured that they were just really scrawny ) Lootas spread out into 3 patches spaced relatively evenly his side of the board in cover.

T1 I start zooming forwards and just unload every last thing into the lootas. Dicerolls were average but I got first blood on one squad of lootas. (barely did it. I even shot the fire raptor anti-tank missles at them since they went to ground) the raptor stayed on the pad getting the 4++ since it can only hover this round.

I scored first blood and capture obj 1.

T1 orks - everything moved up. (I turned on a movie at this point and let him just tell me when it was time to shoot at me since it took some 20 min to just move and run some boyz.

Shooting by the remaining massed lootas killed 2 talons and took one HP off a 3rd. He elected to not shoot at my fire raptor.

He got 2 VP for Obj 3 and 4

T2 me - talons had to fly off the board as I had no room to place a model on his side and turning would limit my shooting ark to just some boyz. I elect to just fly everything off cept the raptor. I zoomed it up one extreme flank and killed 3 lootas and some boyz from a squad. Lootas went to ground in ruins. No reserve talons came on to my chigrin.

I scored 0 VP's since I got kill a unit and cap obj 3 (wasn't going to be able to move 20 boyz) and wasn't able to snipe out his warlord with my lack of units. My ground forces just twiddled their thumbs.

T2 orks - move moving up (they are about midfield now due to some poor move through cover rolls with very large units) All my infantry were behind LOS so no real shooting. He had 2 dakkajets come on. One was able to come in at extreme angle since he cleared up some board space on the end by crunching some boyz squads together. The other dakka jet didn't fit anywhere so just zoomed forwards on one end of the field. Didn't call a waaag so just took 1 HP off the raptor after jinking (which I failed) from the dakka jet and both squads of lootas. He rolled a 1 for their shots luckily this turn.

Scored 1 point for obj 3 again.

Oks 3, SM 2

SM Turn 3 - 2 talons come on so I have 6 talons again. The raptor had no room so went into reserves. 3 talons went after dakkajet at extreme angle (I was hoping to turn them 90 degrees next turn to stay on the board) and the other 3 went after the depleted loota squad again. Infantry did nothing as usual. Chaplin came on with the vets and just ran into cover near my backfields behind LOS.

Shooting takes down the dakkajet and some boyz from the crash and burn. The depleted lootas lose 4 more models and fail a morale check but stay on the board.

I score 1 point for obj 2. and 1 point for killing a unit.

SM 4, ork 3

Ork Turn 3

Other dakka jets come on, the one still on the table has no targets as I came on one corner and was beyond its turn radius. It flies off. The new dakka jet goes after the previously wounded talon and kills it. Rest of the boyz move up. The running lootas regroup sadly for me and between them and the healthy loota group in the middle take out another talon with 1 hp off another.

Rest of the boyz move up and orks score 2 VP for obj 3 again and kill a unit.

Ork 5, Sm 4

SM Turn 4 - There was enough of a gap to fit one storm talon on the board with a target at some boyz. 1 flies off. I get 1 raptor and 1 reserve talon on. I have to fly off the board 2 talons for lack of targets.

Shooting from the newly arrived talons along with the raptor and the talons on the board kill both dakka jets and killed another 5 lootas from the big healthy squad. with some boys dying to the quad heavy bolters but we didn't even bother to count them since they were going to just sit on the obj anyway. The lootas pass morale.

I score 2 points for obj 1 and kill an enemy.

SM = 6 , Orks 5

Turn 4 orks

Move'ing on up. He's within charge range of one of the scout squads finally. Loota squads take down another talon with combined fire. (yikes! I'm down to 6 flyers XD)

The shoota boyz in range shoot and kill a scout. I make morale and they declare a charge with waaag for fun I guess. I overwatch and kill 1 boy with sniper rifles wmahahah. He makes it into charge after a reroll and wipes the squad. Consolidates 1 inch but now I don't control obj 1 lol.

He scores 1 point for killing a unit in assault and capture obj 1 (darn!)
Orks 7, SM 6

T5, I'm getting pretty tired as is my opponent. It's just too many models to move and the movie was over (watched Man on Fire). We decide to make it the last turn.

I dump eveything into hover mode near my side of the board away from green tide as best I can and just shoot all the boyz and lootas. I killed some 22 boyz (pretty darn good!) and almost wiped a squad closest to my lines and mostly out of cover. Killed another 2 lootas as well but wasn't enough to make them run. I totally forgot my infantry as they were hiding well and I kind of forgot where I put them lol.

I think I scored 1 VP for something but it wasn't important.

Orks turn 5

Everything moves up of course, he shoots lootas at another talon and kills it. one squad of boys make it into charge range of another talon but miraculously fail to kill it in assault ( as I depleted them down to 5 models and he didn't have a power klaw left in there)

He scores another VP somewhere for an objective and linebreaker and wins the game lol.

GG hand shake and the wife tells me to go clean up for supper. Very fun test though somewhat frustrating game XD That's what you get for asking for your buddy to list against you lolz.


Given the above madness, I'm actually more tempted to take inquisition with rocket pod valkyries now just for some horde control.

The shooty henchmen might do ok, I dunno lol. still be 9 flyers but a bit more ground troops and not sure if will take the skyshield. Maybe a bastion to hide inside of instead? Maybe take a land raider and 2 valkyries?