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Are there any rules regarding how a wrecked vehicle should act as terrain. What I mean is, can an opponent whose just had their transport wrecked flip it on its side so it becomes a hulking wall for their disembarked troops to hide behind? I've also seems wrecked vehicle markes that sit flat on the tables as well. I guess my real question is if there is any rules consensus on this or is it just handles as true LOS? What about the huge looming smoke clouds? You can practically hide a knight behind one of those. I feel like if there were a rules saying it created a little square of difficult terrain it would be more clear but as it is I feel like some people use it as a cheat to turn a wrecked rhino into an LOS blocking skyscraper.

No reason to flip it. Just leave it where it is and it's wrecked.

Most people I play just flip it upside down to indicated it's wrecked while not gaining any height advantage.

Not too sure on smoke effects. I'd argue no, but I could be wrong. Some people like using little tokens to indicate wrecked (as well as Weapon Destroyed, Stunned, the works).

rigeld2 wrote:
No reason to flip it. Just leave it where it is and it's wrecked.

I don't have the roof panel attached (I run them as razorbacks sometimes) so I just take that off to represent it's wrecked. Definitely no flipping. When you shoot a tank with a missile it doesn't soar into the air and fall on its side, it just stops where it was.

It will count as cover, yes, but making a wall is a no no. As for smoke, I'd say you can still fire through it. If anything you could say it gives a 6+ or 5+ cover, not a LOS blocker.

If a wrecked tank is making it so a unit can not be seen, that's definitely LOS blocking terrain. It's a true LOS game remember. That's just hard to pull of with a Rhino hull. But it can totally happen with a LR.

Martel732 wrote:
If a wrecked tank is making it so a unit can not be seen, that's definitely LOS blocking terrain. It's a true LOS game remember. That's just hard to pull of with a Rhino hull. But it can totally happen with a LR.

Sure - but not by flipping it on its side. There's no reason nor allowance to - it's just a dead vehicle, the model doesn't move or change.

Looking back, what I said is a little confusing. When I say the wrecked tank will count as cover, I mean it will block LOS just like normal cover would. The smoke is what won't block LOS.

 kingbobbito wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No reason to flip it. Just leave it where it is and it's wrecked.

I don't have the roof panel attached (I run them as razorbacks sometimes) so I just take that off to represent it's wrecked. Definitely no flipping. When you shoot a tank with a missile it doesn't soar into the air and fall on its side, it just stops where it was.

It will count as cover, yes, but making a wall is a no no. As for smoke, I'd say you can still fire through it. If anything you could say it gives a 6+ or 5+ cover, not a LOS blocker.

Ever seen a Russian T-72 hit with hellstrike missile? They will do all sorts of weird things, Turrets go flying, parts of the tank just aren't there anymore and in some cases the bugger will literally jump in hte air and land on its side or upside down. :-P

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No reason to flip it. Just leave it where it is and it's wrecked.

I don't have the roof panel attached (I run them as razorbacks sometimes) so I just take that off to represent it's wrecked. Definitely no flipping. When you shoot a tank with a missile it doesn't soar into the air and fall on its side, it just stops where it was.

It will count as cover, yes, but making a wall is a no no. As for smoke, I'd say you can still fire through it. If anything you could say it gives a 6+ or 5+ cover, not a LOS blocker.

Ever seen a Russian T-72 hit with hellstrike missile? They will do all sorts of weird things, Turrets go flying, parts of the tank just aren't there anymore and in some cases the bugger will literally jump in hte air and land on its side or upside down. :-P

The issue isn't that it can't happen, it's that it basically doesn't happen, cuz physics.

Let's say a rocket hits the side of a tank. If you're only hitting its side, all of the momentum of the explosion will, if anything, push the tank backwards. Horizontal force can't cause vertical movement.

Let's say a rocket hits it in the top then. Rocket hits, explodes, pushes the tank down against the ground. To force it up, a rocket must go through a tank and explode in the undercarriage.

Not saying it can't happen, just that anything short of an orbital bombardment probably won't flip a land raider. Throw in that 40k tanks are probably heavier than modern day if they can take lascannon shots and laugh at 2/3 of them.

If you're that guy that says that every single tank in 40k rockets into the air doing rolls and lands on a 3 story ruin.... just get out

And yes, I've seen guys say their tank flipped sideways into a ruin... coincidentally letting the marines inside disembark into the ruin....

 kingbobbito wrote:
If you're that guy that says that every single tank in 40k rockets into the air doing rolls and lands on a 3 story ruin.... just get out

I think, if I recall correctly from other posts, he's that guy who's seen the closest real world equivalent actually happening in an actual combat theatre

Anyway, the rules say:

"A wrecked model is left in place, and is treated as a Citadel scenery model with the difficult terrain type."

Moving it in any way would not be leaving it in place, so no, no moving/flipping/etc.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Anyway, the rules say:

"A wrecked model is left in place, and is treated as a Citadel scenery model with the difficult terrain type."

Moving it in any way would not be leaving it in place, so no, no moving/flipping/etc.

You got it. You'll see people flip them in casual games, because it's an easy way to indicate that a vehicle is wrecked (it's what I do in casual games). But if there's any doubt about LOS issues, then you should flip them back over and check the LOS again (since they weren't technically supposed to have been flipped in the first place). The best solution is to buy little flame tokens to indicate what's wrecked.

^ As above, you must leave the model alone. Adding a marker to the vehicle (such as a pillar of smoke) is a good way to indicate that the vehicle is wrecked, but by no means would it block/obscure LOS. Any other marker you use does not block LOS, so why should a smoke pillar marker?

In casual play my friends and I disassemble our wrecked vehicles into multiple pieces and scatter them about the area for a more cinematic experience, but we've never used it to gain a clear advantage. Should a situation arise like in the OP, we would just use the RAW and leave the model in place.

The only other rules there are are for skimmers and that is simply remove the base if you can.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No reason to flip it. Just leave it where it is and it's wrecked.

I don't have the roof panel attached (I run them as razorbacks sometimes) so I just take that off to represent it's wrecked. Definitely no flipping. When you shoot a tank with a missile it doesn't soar into the air and fall on its side, it just stops where it was.

It will count as cover, yes, but making a wall is a no no. As for smoke, I'd say you can still fire through it. If anything you could say it gives a 6+ or 5+ cover, not a LOS blocker.

Ever seen a Russian T-72 hit with hellstrike missile? They will do all sorts of weird things, Turrets go flying, parts of the tank just aren't there anymore and in some cases the bugger will literally jump in hte air and land on its side or upside down. :-P

The issue isn't that it can't happen, it's that it basically doesn't happen, cuz physics.

Let's say a rocket hits the side of a tank. If you're only hitting its side, all of the momentum of the explosion will, if anything, push the tank backwards. Horizontal force can't cause vertical movement.

Let's say a rocket hits it in the top then. Rocket hits, explodes, pushes the tank down against the ground. To force it up, a rocket must go through a tank and explode in the undercarriage.

Not saying it can't happen, just that anything short of an orbital bombardment probably won't flip a land raider. Throw in that 40k tanks are probably heavier than modern day if they can take lascannon shots and laugh at 2/3 of them.

If you're that guy that says that every single tank in 40k rockets into the air doing rolls and lands on a 3 story ruin.... just get out

And yes, I've seen guys say their tank flipped sideways into a ruin... coincidentally letting the marines inside disembark into the ruin....

you need to watch US military Desert Storm videos. There are many many videos that DoD put out for public to watch. just google "Russian T-72 hit with hellstrike missile" what you forgot is that the hellfire explore inside the ammo storage causing another explosion with the tank ammo. that cause a vertical movement and sometime does lift the tank up and over on the side. There are also video explaining this. Those are real life footage.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No reason to flip it. Just leave it where it is and it's wrecked.

I don't have the roof panel attached (I run them as razorbacks sometimes) so I just take that off to represent it's wrecked. Definitely no flipping. When you shoot a tank with a missile it doesn't soar into the air and fall on its side, it just stops where it was.

It will count as cover, yes, but making a wall is a no no. As for smoke, I'd say you can still fire through it. If anything you could say it gives a 6+ or 5+ cover, not a LOS blocker.

Ever seen a Russian T-72 hit with hellstrike missile? They will do all sorts of weird things, Turrets go flying, parts of the tank just aren't there anymore and in some cases the bugger will literally jump in hte air and land on its side or upside down. :-P

I assume you mean hellfire missiles since hellstrike are fictional But would one really FLIP a tank? Blowing off turrets is one thing, that happens when a tank if buttoned up and the pressure wave inside the tank blows the turret off, lots of pictures of wrecked WW2 tanks with the turrets blown off. But actually flipping a tank? Unless it's a really light tank I feel like any explosion capable of lifting a 40 to 70 tons of tank off the ground would just cause the tank to disintegrate, or a large crater the tank would just fall in to (lots of pictures of WW2 tanks in craters).

The only pics I've seen of wrecked tanks flipped over appear to have been intentionally flipped to clear a path.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Ever seen a Russian T-72 hit with hellstrike missile? They will do all sorts of weird things, Turrets go flying, parts of the tank just aren't there anymore and in some cases the bugger will literally jump in hte air and land on its side or upside down. :-P

I assume you mean hellfire missiles since hellstrike are fictional But would one really FLIP a tank? Blowing off turrets is one thing, that happens when a tank if buttoned up and the pressure wave inside the tank blows the turret off, lots of pictures of wrecked WW2 tanks with the turrets blown off. But actually flipping a tank? Unless it's a really light tank I feel like any explosion capable of lifting a 40 to 70 tons of tank off the ground would just cause the tank to disintegrate, or a large crater the tank would just fall in to (lots of pictures of WW2 tanks in craters).

The only pics I've seen of wrecked tanks flipped over appear to have been intentionally flipped to clear a path.

I actually did just watch some videos of tanks getting hit by missiles. All I saw was a lot of turrets being blown off, the tank might have shifted a few feet but was otherwise unaffected (aside from being completely wrecked, of course).

rigeld2 wrote:
No reason to flip it. Just leave it where it is and it's wrecked.

Enough said! Yeah I always try and pull off piece of my vehicles or get puff balls for smoke...

Going back to the OP's question:

Usually when a vehicle is wrecked, I remove it's turret placing it on top of the hull in an awkward position (idea being it's ammunition storage has been hit, or it has received enough damage to destroy the turret ring.) If the vehicle does not have a turret to remove (or somebody doesn't want the turret removed), I put a few dice on top with the six side up, this points out clearly that the vehicle has received too much damage to function.

In regards to line of sight, the wreckage then counts as a barrier to sight and fire, just like a wall. I don't take smoke into consideration.

A little something more, I usually count wrecked vehicles as difficult terrain for the purposes of moving over them.

 Cothonian wrote:
In regards to line of sight, the wreckage then counts as a barrier to sight and fire, just like a wall. I don't take smoke into consideration.

A little something more, I usually count wrecked vehicles as difficult terrain for the purposes of moving over them.

And both of these are exactly what the rules very clearly tell us to do

hellstrike hellfire, i have been wargaming to long :-P thank god I got out before i started calling my rifle a bolter.

I HAVE seen the effects of Hellfire missiles on enemy tanks.
Never seen one flip. Saw one get stood up on its end and almost go over. (hit under front hull)
The turret coming off is a much more common occurrence with missile/bomb/mortar hits.
I personally prefer the Super Sabot hit though. Nothing really noticeable from the entrance side, people soup on the other.

We didn't have that many tanks to play with in Afghanistan and they were all on our side, but we sure as hell blew up a lot of random vehicles. I distinctly remember a motorcycle flying just a bit farther and higher then the rider when it got hit by a drone carrying a hellfire. Or the HME factory we blew up in Northern Nahr-e Saraj right on the border with Sangin. the explosion was felt as far away as PB White house

Gots to love the close in stuff. Pops was a trainer for 15R, X, Y, and F. Snuck me and a friend through the classes over 3 summers in HS years. We could have both went in as any Apache mechanic mos and smoked the class....
We were both pretty Gung-ho. I went 19K (armored crewman M1A1) and he went Engineers.
Pops was pissed. lol

 Ghazkuul wrote:
hellstrike hellfire, i have been wargaming to long :-P thank god I got out before i started calling my rifle a bolter.

You obviously haven't been wargaming long enough! You had a stubber, not a bolter!

Well, I assume you had a stubber. You didn't use one of those automatic 40mm grenade launchers, did you?

Honestly, I don't see the need to flip it up on its side anyway. Even a rhino chassis is tall enough as is to completely obscure a marine placed behind it.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
hellstrike hellfire, i have been wargaming to long :-P thank god I got out before i started calling my rifle a bolter.

You obviously haven't been wargaming long enough! You had a stubber, not a bolter!

Well, I assume you had a stubber. You didn't use one of those automatic 40mm grenade launchers, did you?

FALSE! I was a Marine so therefore I had a bolter and no I never did carry a M203 into combat, though i did fire enough cheesepuffs and DP rounds at the range.