Effectively using guard troops choices.

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**EVIL INC**

The idea is to make an article on effectively using troops choices with sections for all of the armies.
Figure I would start with guard and after we get as much for it as we can get, I'll go on to another army.
Please keep in mind that what works for one player may not work for another With this in mind, if someone posts something that works for them and you dont like it, accept that they are different and instead of tearing them down, just contribute your own.

I'll start with a few things and add more myself later on as I am pressed for time before work....

Squads-
upgrades-

Transports-
-Guard have decent mobile bunkers. The range on the transports such as the chimera is fairly decent. They might not reach all the way to the rear of the enemy deployment zone in all cases but they can usually reach most of the midfield and usually some of the enemy deployment zone. This makes them decent at shooting. I will often leave the unit inside to fire out and man the side guns. This makes for a prickly customer that protects the squad inside until the chimera itself is destroyed, thus making it last longer into the game while still being effective. Put camo on it and place it in cover next to ahome objective and it lasts that much longer.
- mobile cover/terraign You can often place it in a spot where it will be an area of dangerous terraign for enemy troops to cross if it is destroyed. It can provide cover or bock LOS to areas that YOU get to choose. It is also good to keep in mind that it can be used to force an enemy unit to use up movenemnt allowance to get around which can mean the difference of keeping an enemy unit that extra inch or two away from an objective at the end of the game to keep them from claiming or contesting it.
-transport for non-troop units. If you buy the transport for a troop unit rather than an elite, you can still load the elite unit into it on turn one to move them across the board. if you do this, keep in mind that even though it is a elite unit being transported, in terms of claiming objectives, the transport still counts as a troop choice.
Upgrades- The only one I usually fool with is maybe camo. Beyond that, I'd rather use the points elsewhere.

**Paradigm**

My own article on IG Troops:

Today I'm taking a look at the key building blocks of any army list, the Troops slots, and the various ways to get the best from them in an Imperial Guard/Astra Militarium army. The new codex has opened up some very interesting possibilities, while all the common options from the last book also remained solid.

The Veteran Squad:

The first choice I'm going to look at is the Veteran squad. In terms of the unit itself, and particularly their firepower, not a lot has changed for these guys, as they still have the capacity to carry up to 3 Special and 1 Heavy weapon, making them possibly the best unit in the codex for Force Concentration, or putting your firepower where you need it. 3 plasma or meltaguns mean they remain adept at putting down units with 2+ saves, Monstrous Creatures and vehicles of all kinds at short-to-mid, and as BS4, they are still as reliable as ever.

The new Orders and support options actually help Veterans a lot. The new versions of Bring It Down (conferring Tank/Monster Hunter and therefore re-rolls on Armour Penetration or Wounds) and Fire On My Target (Ignores Cover) mean that the special weapons will be even more effective, as they have more chance to hurt or denying the enemy a chance to save against them. With the abundance of Cover, Fire On My Target is not to be underestimated, as being able to remove the 4+ save conferred by an Aegis Defence Line with a Lascannon or Plasmagun shot essentially doubles your chances of doing damage. Forward For The Emperor allows you to manoeuvre better without losing firepower, and Take Aim allows you to put those AP2 wounds where you want them. Smite At Will (Split Fire) means you can hit 2 targets (useful when 3 meltaguns would be overkill, or your Lascannon has a shot at some weak armour) and Supression Fire (Pinning) is also useful. Move, Move, Move is the only order that doesn't directly benefit Veterans more than anyone else, but it's still handy if you need to redeploy.

The Auxiliary HQs also help Veterans quite a bit. While the Priest's Fearless and War Hymns aren't directly useful, he can add an extra Plasmagun, which, while situational, is a nice boost to firepower. The Primaris Psyker casting Prescience can help you lay down more Special Weapon hits, and while the benefit:cost ratio is arguably worse than that for a Combined Platoon Infantry Squad, there's far more chance of all 3 Special Weapons being in effective range with a Veteran Squad. The Techpriest Enginseer is useful for mechanised Veterans, as they can repair the Chimera using Blessing of the Omnissiah, add a powerfist attack in close combat, and as it's likely they will be near a Leman Russ in a mech list, confer Power of the Machine Spirit. There's also something to be said for having a 3+ save to take challenges on.

Doctrines also got significantly cheaper for Veterans, with Grenadiers (Carapace Armour) only 15 points, and Forward Sentries (Camo Cloaks and Snare Mines) at just 10. This means that, either through better cover save or armour, you can easily increase the durabilty of your veterans, with Carapace armour giving that all-important save against the AP5 small arms carries en-masse by most armies. The Doctrines also stack, so it's perfectly possible, for less than 1 Doctrine cost in the last codex, to have a unit of Veterans with a 4+ armour save, Defensive Grenades, and +1 to their cover save, making them pretty durable next to their Flak-armoured comrades.

It's not all good, though. With the increase in cost and reduction of Fire Points on the Chimera, the idea of using it as a gunboat for Veterans is somewhat weakened. Instead, it's now possibly better to perform a 'cavalry charge' of sorts with mechanised Veterans, moving as fast as possible with 2-3 Veteran Squads and a Company Command Squad, disembarking once in short range and unleashing a short-range salvo of Order-boosted firepower. This does require some points to be poured into it, but as a sledgehammer it might be quite effective, especially when backed up by a Deep-striking Scion Platoon or a Hellhound or two.

Infantry Platoon:

The Infantry Platoon remained almost identical in terms of composition, barring a few slight points adjustments (the Special Weapon squad drops to 30 points) and minor additions (Special and Heavy Weapon Squads got Frag Grenades). The main boost to the Platoon is in the extra support options they get.

Orders are the main change; the Platoon Command Squad now has a 12" order range and there are several new options available. Suppression Fire confers Pinning, allowing a squad to potentially take out a low-Leadership threat for a turn, Take Aim gives Precision Shots, which could be useful for hitting special weapons; you're throwing enough shots, some are bound to make it through. Critically, Forward For The Emperor allows you to run after making a shooting attack, which may well be the answer to the Combined Squad's lack of mobility.

The Primaris Psyker is very helpful for larger Combined Squads (only after 30 men does it become more effective to add a Psyker rather than another squad) as he can essentially Twin-link all their weapons, which, combined with First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire or Take Aim, vastly improves the damage output of large squads, and if you upgrade to Mastery Level 2, there's plenty of other good powers, such as Forewarning (A 4+ invulnerable save) from Divination or Endurance (Feel No Pain and Relentless) from Biomancy, both of which get a better return on investment when cast on a larger squad with multiple Special/Heavy weapons, something the Infantry Platoon does well. A Priest granting fearless and War Hymns is fairly obviously useful to large squads as well, offering the same bonus as a Commissar without the risk of an important model being executed.

The reduction of the cost of Sniper Rifles and Special Weapons also opens up an interesting option, as at only 36 points, you get an insanely cheap, easily duplicated scoring unit that is small enough to be ignored and, in multiples, potentially quite dangerous with a good number of Pinning/Rending/Precision shots. These squads also cause some target priority issues for the opponent, as they must choose between shooting these small, rather fragile units at the expense of hitting the more threatening blobs, or to hit the blobs and leave you with half a dozen scoring units that are easy to hide and get harder to remove the more turns elapse. Essentially, these squads are cheap enough that they can counter the relative unwieldiness of blobs and add a Multiple-Small-Units feel to a horde list.

Possibly the real gem of the Platoon, though, is the Conscript Squad. At only 3 points a model, they have some fairly poor stats (WS/BS2, Ld5) but are so damn cheap that you can easily find the points to throw in one or two supporting models to make them a force to be reckoned with. A Commissar will mean that they get a leadership boost, Stubborn, and if they do fail the test, there's no real loss. 2/3 times, you'll choose an identical Conscript to execute and auto-pass the test, and 1/3 of the time, your opponent has the same choice, or lack thereof. A Priest giving them re-rolls on Hits and potentially Wounds or Saves in Combat make them pretty nasty to be charged by, an excellent tarpit (Fearless means they won't ever run) and a great first wave to shield the guys behind. 85 points buys you a Fearless 21-man objective-sitter. A Primaris Psyker also gives a Ld boost, access to Prescience on their bucketful of Lasgun shots, and potentially some other buffs. They also make a dirt-cheap bodyguard for an allied Character you need to get into combat, as 60 points buys your Chapter Master Smasher of the Killy Death Marines 20 extra wounds.

Short version:
Veterans for concentrated firepower, Platoons of 20-30 men for line infantry, Conscripts in squads of 30-40 with Priest as Tarpits, mobile cover or objective holders, PCS/SWS for unit saturation.

**EVIL INC**

Thanx Paradigm, Good stuff and exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.
I'm looking to see if I can get a compilation of ideas from multiple people to give a reader a wide variety of ideas and tips.

**vipoid**

Paradigm wrote:

Short version:
Veterans for concentrated firepower, Platoons of 20-30 men for line infantry, Conscripts in squads of 30-40 with Priest as Tarpits, mobile cover or objective holders, PCS/SWS for unit saturation.

I won't quote the entire thing, but that's a very good writeup.

With regard to veterans, how useful do you find Orders and Primaris Pskyers if you're using a mechanised list?

i.e. is it still worth including one or both even if the Veterans are going to be spending a lot of time in Chimeras?

EVIL INC wrote:
Please keep in mind that what works for one player may not work for another With this in mind, if someone posts something that works for them and you dont like it, accept that they are different and instead of tearing them down, just contribute your own.

Sorry, but that's an awful idea. If this is intended as a tactics thread then people have a right to point out issues with any proposed tactics.

If you're that terrified that your tactics won't hold up under scrutiny. then perhaps you shouldn't be posting them at all.

**Paradigm**

vipoid wrote:
Paradigm wrote:

Short version:
Veterans for concentrated firepower, Platoons of 20-30 men for line infantry, Conscripts in squads of 30-40 with Priest as Tarpits, mobile cover or objective holders, PCS/SWS for unit saturation.

I won't quote the entire thing, but that's a very good writeup.

With regard to veterans, how useful do you find Orders and Primaris Pskyers if you're using a mechanised list?

i.e. is it still worth including one or both even if the Veterans are going to be spending a lot of time in Chimeras?

Buffers for a mech-list are a tough one. On one hand, inside the Chimeras they are next to useless, but outside them, you need all the help you can get to still make a difference.

Orders are less useful, obviously, but that isn't to say I wouldn't take a CCS. They option to take 4 Specials is still nice for a hyper-concentrated punch that can tip the balance when you need it. And especially with the Fire Point drop on Chimeras, you will want to dismount from time to time for maximum firepower, in which case being able to throw out an Ignores Cover or Split Fire Order can make a big difference.

Psykers I'd be more hesitant to take in an all-mech list, simply as unlike the CCS, he doesn't offer much when not buffing. I'd actually be tempted to reallocate the points into Tech Priests. Throw one in a Chimera and you can fire both guns at Combat Speed or even one at Crusing Speed with PotMS, so perhaps think of that like a psychic power that can't be cancelled and can be cast inside a vehicle. And, of course, they can fix the tank, and if it comes to it, an extra power weapon in the squad can't hurt.

**vipoid**

Paradigm wrote:

Buffers for a mech-list are a tough one. On one hand, inside the Chimeras they are next to useless, but outside them, you need all the help you can get to still make a difference.

Orders are less useful, obviously, but that isn't to say I wouldn't take a CCS. They option to take 4 Specials is still nice for a hyper-concentrated punch that can tip the balance when you need it. And especially with the Fire Point drop on Chimeras, you will want to dismount from time to time for maximum firepower, in which case being able to throw out an Ignores Cover or Split Fire Order can make a big difference.

In that sort of list, what sort of loadout would you use for the command squad? Plasmaguns, meltaguns or something else?

Paradigm wrote:

Psykers I'd be more hesitant to take in an all-mech list, simply as unlike the CCS, he doesn't offer much when not buffing. I'd actually be tempted to reallocate the points into Tech Priests. Throw one in a Chimera and you can fire both guns at Combat Speed or even one at Crusing Speed with PotMS, so perhaps think of that like a psychic power that can't be cancelled and can be cast inside a vehicle. And, of course, they can fix the tank, and if it comes to it, an extra power weapon in the squad can't hurt.

Sounds silly, but I often forget that Engineers are ICs. I'll try adding them to some of my veteran squads next time I use IG, thanks.

**Paradigm**

It really depends with the CCS on what you want them for. For vets I typically run 2:1 ratio of Plasma to Melta squads, so would probably give the CCS some Melta to balance that out. However, if you see more MCs/MEQ than AV13+ vehicles, Plasma probably beats out Melta.

It's also one of the few cases where I'd consider a mixed loadout; with 3 in a Vet squad you will have an uneven split, but 2 Plasma and 2 Melta in a CCS means that from the Chimera, you can fire a pair of either as the task demands, and if you end up on foot (deliberately or otherwise) then 4 plasma and 2 Melta shots should still put a significant dent in anything short of a Monolith!

**EVIL INC**

vipoid wrote:

I won't quote the entire thing, but that's a very good writeup.

EVIL INC wrote:
Please keep in mind that what works for one player may not work for another With this in mind, if someone posts something that works for them and you dont like it, accept that they are different and instead of tearing them down, just contribute your own.

Sorry, but that's an awful idea. If this is intended as a tactics thread then people have a right to point out issues with any proposed tactics.

If you're that terrified that your tactics won't hold up under scrutiny. then perhaps you shouldn't be posting them at all.

I'm actually not terrified of anything. My tactics work for me. Successfully or I wouldnt use them. They have been developed over decades against the variety of opponants I have faced. If someone has an issue with them, I dnt really care. Doesnt make them any less effective for me so no skin off my nose.Likewise for you and others. It is a matter of treating one another with respect. Posters will go out of their way to come up with impossible circumstances where a tactics might not work with the sole intent of trying to discredit another poster with no intentions of actual game play in mind. Because that immediately leads to breaking of the site rules and arguments erupt and the entire thread gets closed.
If you see a tactics you dont think, just dont use it.

**vipoid**

EVIL INC wrote:
I'm actually not terrified of anything. My tactics work for me. Successfully or I wouldnt use them. They have been developed over decades against the variety of opponants I have faced.

So then, why are you reluctant to open them up to reasonable criticism?

EVIL INC wrote:
It is a matter of treating one another with respect.

Questioning someone's tactics is not inherently disrespectful - especially if they're putting them in a tactica thread.

EVIL INC wrote:
Posters will go out of their way to come up with impossible circumstances where a tactics might not work with the sole intent of trying to discredit another poster with no intentions of actual game play in mind.

*Shrugs*

And?

If people are using silly or unreasonable criticisms, then it will be simple enough for the original poster (or even someone else) to refute them.

The fact that you *might* get some unreasonable criticisms (which can be reasonable ignored/refuted anyway), seems like a poor excuse for trying to ban all criticism.

EVIL INC wrote:
Because that immediately leads to breaking of the site rules and arguments erupt and the entire thread gets closed.

Why? As above, criticism is not, in and of itself, disrespectful. It certainly doesn't have to be unfriendly or disrespectful. If it was, every thread in the Army List section would be banned as a result.

EVIL INC wrote:

If you see a tactics you dont think, just dont use it.

If you see a criticism that you can't refute, just ignore it and keep using your tactic.

**EVIL INC**

Because you and I both know it is not "reasonable critisism" that is intended. Rather it is the thinly veiled attempts to instigate disruption and arguments for the sake of personal entertainment.
Also because it clouds issues. When you find 12 pages of flames and trolling or even 12 pages of questions about why tactic wont work if your facing an unbound army of 15 reaver titans or whatever, the actual intent of the original thread gets lost. Not to mention it prevents others who may have tactics to contribute themself from taking part because they cant get an word in edgewise or they become afraid to contribute because they fear that they will become the target of personal attacks that have nothing to do with their actual contribution or they may fear being ridiculed because someone just doesnt like their contribution.

The intent is to just compile a list of suggested tactics and strategies for players to choose fromnand try out keeping the ones that work for them and discarding those that dont. Getting off track in this way disrupts and prevents the compilation aspect thus dooming the project before it can see fruit.

However, if you wish to continue the conversation, feel free to use the PM function and leave this thread to the contribution of tactics.
Of course, at the end of the day, it is up to the admins and mods if they wish to support members in the wishes of members in such requests in this way when other members are disrespectful enough to not do so themselves.

**vipoid**

EVIL INC wrote:
Because you and I both know it is not "reasonable critisism" that is intended. Rather it is the thinly veiled attempts to instigate disruption and arguments for the sake of personal entertainment.

If your opinion of Dakkadakka users is that low, I'm surprised you're still bothering posting on this site.

EVIL INC wrote:

However, if you wish to continue the conversation, feel free to use the PM function and leave this thread to the contribution of tactics..

Why? You've made your feelings quite clear. Any tactics posted here are flawless and beyond reproach, and anyone criticising them in any way, shape or form is just being argumentative.

**Paradigm**

As much as I'd like this thread to go back on topic, I do have to point out that it is through discussion (which can include criticism and rebuttal of that) that concusions are reached. It's frankly no good to say 'just post your tactics and move on', as that way, it's not a discussion, it's just a list of suggestions. 95% of the posts in this sub-forum could easily be called 'reasonable' criticism', rather than anything else.

Yes, what works in one situation might not work in another, and anyone posting can explain that, but that doesn't mean any tactic should be beyond reproach or valid criticism.

But anyway, please let's get back on topic.

**Zsolt**

I don't see a problem in adding to an army list, that it won't work against 15 titans. While it's not the most useful piece of information, it's relevant in what circumstances can an army/tactic be used.

**koooaei**

vipoid wrote:

I won't quote the entire thing

Hey, what have you done with the real vipoid?!

**NinjaJc01**

If your playing a small game (<1000pts), vets are cheap and have BS 4, along with Heavy Weapons and combat doctrines, you can fit MOAR TANKS! (Be a true IG player, go for the tanks),
I fitted 2 leman russes into a 600pt game following force organization chart.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

In low points games, a gimmick I like to use is flamer vets in chimeras. What this means is you take three flamers, carapace, heavy flamer turret on the chimeras or heavy bolter turret. Then drive as fast as you can towards the enemy.
Jump out unleash the fury of stacked flamer templates on your opponent's troops, and obviously, it only costs around 300, so you can have a tank or two, as well as some stationary vets with autocannons, and a company command squad, meaning they have support.
It isn't always the most effective but it's a lot of fun, and it is good against armies like dark elder where flamers are amazing at wiping them out, combined with the low points game so they won't take amazing units.

**vipoid**

EVIL INC wrote:

Of course, at the end of the day, it is up to the admins and mods if they wish to support members in the wishes of members in such requests in this way when other members are disrespectful enough to not do so themselves.

Members, members, members...

Paradigm wrote:
It really depends with the CCS on what you want them for. For vets I typically run 2:1 ratio of Plasma to Melta squads, so would probably give the CCS some Melta to balance that out. However, if you see more MCs/MEQ than AV13+ vehicles, Plasma probably beats out Melta.

It's also one of the few cases where I'd consider a mixed loadout; with 3 in a Vet squad you will have an uneven split, but 2 Plasma and 2 Melta in a CCS means that from the Chimera, you can fire a pair of either as the task demands, and if you end up on foot (deliberately or otherwise) then 4 plasma and 2 Melta shots should still put a significant dent in anything short of a Monolith!

Hmm, I hadn't actually considered mixing weapons like that.

Normally, I don't like having both assault and non-assault special weapons in a squad... but considering that a CCS is unlikely to ever want to assault anything (not to mention the current vehicle rules), I'm sure I can make an exception.

On the subject of mixing weapons though, what do you think of mech-vets with 2 meltaguns and a Heavy Flamer?

koooaei wrote:
vipoid wrote:

I won't quote the entire thing

Hey, what have you done with the real vipoid?!

Ha ha ha. That is an amusing jest.

But seriously now, I am definitely me. And I feel just fine. Never felt better, in fact.

Perhaps we fellow humans could get together for a beer sometime and discuss our mutual interest of this activity? I have some friend people who would be very keen to befriend further bipedal mammals, like yourself.

What do you say?

**Paradigm**

vipoid wrote:

On the subject of mixing weapons though, what do you think of mech-vets with 2 meltaguns and a Heavy Flamer?

Not a bad way of doing it. They lose nothing while mounted up, and the HF makes a nice deterrant (and potentially surprising offensive tool). All I can say is to try it, but I can't see a major flaw anywhere.

**konst80hummel**

With the ability to fire overwatch from the hatch i have found that the 2 melta/plasma 1 H. Flamer combo works. I play mostly against Eldar of both varieties and Necrons and it does give Scarabs and other soft fast units Pause. Not the new wraiths of course but it does help...

**EVIL INC**

Meh. I'll throw the whole making a compilatin idea out the window as it is not a welcome idea it seems. So, I'll just jump in with the rest...

The flamer chimera idea- I like this. I would say, why not just leave them in the chimera and fire from there? Unless your looking for the extra range you can get from deployment and the extra flashlight shots lol (but you could get the flashlight shots from the chimera itself through the built in ones.

I like the idea of the mixed weapon loadout on CCS. I often did that to good effect when I ran them more aggressively and it worked out well. Of course, I also mixed in advisors and bodyguards to act as meat shields to help them live longer.

I used to never put flamers on vets as it seemed a waste of a higher BS to me. However, as you pointed out, I started mixing one in just to help out when they get assaulted as you yourself suggest doing. It really does help. I dont use the heavy flamer though.

**vipoid**

EVIL INC wrote:

I used to never put flamers on vets as it seemed a waste of a higher BS to me. However, as you pointed out, I started mixing one in just to help out when they get assaulted as you yourself suggest doing. It really does help. I dont use the heavy flamer though.

Yeah, I have a similar concern with regard to putting flamer weapons on BS4 models. And, I also find myself wondering if I'll miss the extra melta shot when I disembark.

However, it might be because of the units I own - I don't have any wyverns or similar, so my anti-infantry tends to be rather lacking. Obviously elite infantry can usually be taken care of with massed plasma/melta fire. But, when you face something like Orks, you really start to want more flamers.

Can I ask why you use a flamer and not a heavy flamer? For 5pts extra, the Heavy Flamer seems like a pretty good upgrade.

**EVIL INC**

Because I'm stingy with points and usually usually just toss it in at the end. I also never got around to modeling a heavy flamer on. Depending on my mood is what models I use to represent my vets along with what the rest of my army is comprised of. I might use cadian models, maybe catachans or maybe those cheapy greatcoat stormtroopers.
it could also be that if I have the extra 10 points and 2 "special weapon slots" open, I would rather have 2 normal flamers than 1 heavy.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Has anyone thought of two 50 man platoon squads massed behind 15 bullgryns for cover, plus a lord commissar to give all the units Ld10? (this can be done and stay battle-forged)

**Paradigm**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Has anyone thought of two 50 man platoon squads massed behind 15 bullgryns for cover, plus a lord commissar to give all the units Ld10? (this can be done and stay battle-forged)

My issue with this kind of thing is that on any board not a flat expanse of tundra, you'll be roadblocked after your first movement phase, at which point you'll have to break formation and either your cover or your Commissar become useless. 50-man squads are unwieldy enough as it is, putting a walking roadblock in front of them is not something that appeals to me.

It would work if you were just staying still, but then just buy a couple of ADLs in a Fortification Detachment and save a ton of points.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Paradigm wrote:
CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Has anyone thought of two 50 man platoon squads massed behind 15 bullgryns for cover, plus a lord commissar to give all the units Ld10? (this can be done and stay battle-forged)

My issue with this kind of thing is that on any board not a flat expanse of tundra, you'll be roadblocked after your first movement phase, at which point you'll have to break formation and either your cover or your Commissar become useless. 50-man squads are unwieldy enough as it is, putting a walking roadblock in front of them is not something that appeals to me.

It would work if you were just staying still, but then just buy a couple of ADLs in a Fortification Detachment and save a ton of points.

Fair enough, but for moving the 50 man squads, you can simply have the whole unit encircle the terrain and carry on moving without having every person roll for difficult terrain. Also, the ADL doesn't give you the grenade launchers.
Still, it would probably work better with 20-30 man squads, and less bullgryns.

**Paradigm**

Yeah, the theory is fine, it was just the extent to which you suggested that I wasn't sure about.