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BTW, I am preparing an Alpha Legion army, but I still have doubt over their colour scheme (pre-heresy) : In Legion (and on it's cover) it is said to be purple and silver, while Forge World paints them in a vivid -almost turquoise- blue and most armies I've seen show them in a dark blue. I am kind of lost I must admit.
It doesn't really matter, in all honesty. They've been seen in purple, azure, turquoise... Even a weird reddy pink colour I can't remember the name for; according to Extermination.
Engrenages wrote: BTW, I am preparing an Alpha Legion army, but I still have doubt over their colour scheme (pre-heresy) : In Legion (and on it's cover) it is said to be purple and silver, while Forge World paints them in a vivid -almost turquoise- blue and most armies I've seen show them in a dark blue. I am kind of lost I must admit.
As the others are saying, go crazy. They're even black in some of the older codices.
Mine almost look more like Sons of Horus (I've gone for Stegadon Scale Green with a Coelia Greenshade wash).
And I don't believe in massive armor ornementation for Alpha Legion as we can see on in other Legions, Alpharius's ceremonial armour put aside, I am quite worried that FW models will be massively covered in reptilian scales, hydra faces as it was featured on Armillus Dynat' model's preview. For me their pragmatic way of thinking contradict it at least partially, in the sense where the excess of flashiness would impede stealth, infiltration, deception in most cases.
Engrenages wrote: And I don't believe in massive armor ornementation for Alpha Legion as we can see on in other Legions, Alpharius's ceremonial armour put aside, I am quite worried that FW models will be massively covered in reptilian scales, hydra faces as it was featured on Armillus Dynat' model's preview. For me their pragmatic way of thinking contradict it at least partially, in the sense where the excess of flashiness would impede stealth, infiltration, deception in most cases.
I totally agree. Hell, an Imperial Fist army is a fluffier Alpha Legion army than one that's all flashy and covered in Alpha Legion iconography.
I don't think Dynat was overdone though, I think he had enough ornamentation to stand out on the tabletop and to have fun painting and to be worthy of their Character Series, but not too much that it was too busy or overdone.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't think Dynat was overdone though, I think he had enough ornamentation to stand out on the tabletop and to have fun painting and to be worthy of their Character Series, but not too much that it was too busy or overdone.
True enough, I watched it again and it's less than I remembered, it's essentially the size of the pauldron that makes it look kinda stubby and it might be related to the photo's point of view. I guess I'm just no fan of this scaled breastplate thing.
Darth Bob wrote: I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.
The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.
Considering the Alpha Legion has around 100k Legionaries, as well as however many million human operatives, they still pose a credible threat. They have cells all over the Imperium, it's just how and when they will use those cells, and also whether or not those cells remain loyal to Alpharius/ Omegon
The Alpha Legion had around 100k Legionnaires (though exact numbers vary). Into the 41st Millennium, and without knowing where they stand at the end of the current Horus Heresy story line, there's really no telling how many are still alive and how much of a threat they actually possess. It's all conjecture and assumptions on the part of both the fans and the people within the fluff itself. The Alpha Legion don't benefit from the "we fled into the Warp so we don't have to worry about the ravages of time" thing that the other Traitor Legions do. It's very unlikely they've been able to maintain their numbers to that degree after 10,000 years of realspace time.
They may very well have cells all over the Imperium, but it's just as likely that they only want the Inquisition to think that's the case so that the few cells that remain intact can work to whatever ends they're working towards. Further still, it could be that the Alpha Legion is completely dispersed as anything more than disparate Warbands in the 41st millennium, but obsessive Inquisitorial authorities are convinced that they're still united. It's almost a reverse on the saying "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".
Nothing's really certain with the Alpha Legion. They might be everywhere, but they might not be anywhere. All depends on what you choose to believe.
Considering the fact that many of the Alpha Legion DID end up turning to Chaos and that the CSM continued to recruit after the Heresy, I see no reason that the AL couldn't maintain their numbers post-Heresy
The Alpha Legion had around 100k Legionnaires (though exact numbers vary). Into the 41st Millennium, and without knowing where they stand at the end of the current Horus Heresy story line, there's really no telling how many are still alive and how much of a threat they actually possess. It's all conjecture and assumptions on the part of both the fans and the people within the fluff itself. The Alpha Legion don't benefit from the "we fled into the Warp so we don't have to worry about the ravages of time" thing that the other Traitor Legions do. It's very unlikely they've been able to maintain their numbers to that degree after 10,000 years of realspace time.
They may very well have cells all over the Imperium, but it's just as likely that they only want the Inquisition to think that's the case so that the few cells that remain intact can work to whatever ends they're working towards. Further still, it could be that the Alpha Legion is completely dispersed as anything more than disparate Warbands in the 41st millennium, but obsessive Inquisitorial authorities are convinced that they're still united. It's almost a reverse on the saying "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".
Nothing's really certain with the Alpha Legion. They might be everywhere, but they might not be anywhere. All depends on what you choose to believe.
Now, this raises a valid point. You said "had", but have we ever seen an actual SIGNIFICANT loss on the part of the Alpha Legion? Assuming they lost half their numbers in the Heresy, they still base in the material realm and would have relatively clean geneseed to create more marines.
Sewing paranoia among the inquisition is a legitimate strategy, but it doesn't mean it's a bluff.
But we have no significant loss of life in the AL, why would they have loss half their number?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/28 02:01:36
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
AL were ruined by the new fluff.In Index astartes we didnt have these "Omegons" or "Alpharius's"We had Alpharius.I am Alpharius.So are you....Or are we Omegon?
Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an!
But we have no significant loss of life in the AL, why would they have loss half their number?
War within the Alpha Legion and the the three times they've supposedly been wiped out, which would suggest heavy losses.
It depends how the Imperium estimated their forces when they "wiped them out". If they killed 5000 AL marines believing they were 7000 while they were in reality 30 000, it's not that big a loss, even though the Imperium might believe otherwise (I choosed random numbers for example, it's not meant to match reality of fluff).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/28 20:41:21
Ok, thanks for explaining the AL losses. But, you guys are forgetting the best part of the Alpha Legions: human operatives. The Alpha Legion used human operatives WAY more than Astartes operatives, so it would still stand to reason that they would have cells all over the Imperium, with mostly humans and a few Marines.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
I still haven't read these, but I believe one is a HH book. Is that correct?
I would think we can automatically disqualify HH era books as there was conflict in all of the Imperium. Let's take it for what it is: the exception.
As for the one other novel, I admit I don't know anything about it. We have to understand that individual writers are given great liberties and don't seem to coordinate well with GW as far as actual plot developments.
If there's one book where one group of Alpha Legionnaires fight, that's fine. Normal, really. It doesn't seem to imply the sort of strife that would reduce their legion by the extreme quantity suggested above.
Added:
Also, we know that the AL has the knowledge to create geneseed and bases in the material universe as well as has operatives throughout the Imperium. They, of all traitor legions, are the least likely to have stagnated. It's entirely possibly they've recruited and sustained themselves throughout the millennium.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 16:48:26
Shidank wrote: I still haven't read these, but I believe one is a HH book. Is that correct?
I would think we can automatically disqualify HH era books as there was conflict in all of the Imperium. Let's take it for what it is: the exception.
As for the one other novel, I admit I don't know anything about it. We have to understand that individual writers are given great liberties and don't seem to coordinate well with GW as far as actual plot developments.
If there's one book where one group of Alpha Legionnaires fight, that's fine. Normal, really. It doesn't seem to imply the sort of strife that would reduce their legion by the extreme quantity suggested above.
Added:
Also, we know that the AL has the knowledge to create geneseed and bases in the material universe as well as has operatives throughout the Imperium. They, of all traitor legions, are the least likely to have stagnated. It's entirely possibly they've recruited and sustained themselves throughout the millennium.
They're both Horus Heresy era.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
Engrenages wrote: And I don't believe in massive armor ornementation for Alpha Legion as we can see on in other Legions, Alpharius's ceremonial armour put aside, I am quite worried that FW models will be massively covered in reptilian scales, hydra faces as it was featured on Armillus Dynat' model's preview. For me their pragmatic way of thinking contradict it at least partially, in the sense where the excess of flashiness would impede stealth, infiltration, deception in most cases.
Eh, being a seven foot tall, clomping, ceramite-encased warrior in powered armor does all that already. If you can get past that suspension of disbelief, then I can't imagine scaly cloaks are going to all of a sudden give you away, lol.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Shidank wrote: I still haven't read these, but I believe one is a HH book. Is that correct?
I would think we can automatically disqualify HH era books as there was conflict in all of the Imperium. Let's take it for what it is: the exception.
As for the one other novel, I admit I don't know anything about it. We have to understand that individual writers are given great liberties and don't seem to coordinate well with GW as far as actual plot developments.
If there's one book where one group of Alpha Legionnaires fight, that's fine. Normal, really. It doesn't seem to imply the sort of strife that would reduce their legion by the extreme quantity suggested above.
Added:
Also, we know that the AL has the knowledge to create geneseed and bases in the material universe as well as has operatives throughout the Imperium. They, of all traitor legions, are the least likely to have stagnated. It's entirely possibly they've recruited and sustained themselves throughout the millennium.
Both are HH, though I don't see how that disqualifies them.
And what do you mean with create gene-seed? Any source?
I actually say right in the quote how they disqualify themselves with the time period. If you'd like for me to elaborate(say the same thing but with more words), I'd gladly do it for you. You fine gentleman.
They stole the material on Primarch creation, the foundation of creating Space Marines. Corax used this to try and rebuild his legion(by creating geneseed and even altering it). The Alpha Legion(underrated in the genetics department) tampered with it to the point neither Corax nor Fabius Bile could catch it. They are not fools. By cell, they seem to work better together than most every other traitor legion. They've sustained their base in the material realm outside the Eye of Terror, so it's entirely feasibly they have replenished their own numbers.
Shidank wrote: I actually say right in the quote how they disqualify themselves with the time period. If you'd like for me to elaborate(say the same thing but with more words), I'd gladly do it for you. You fine gentleman.
They stole the material on Primarch creation, the foundation of creating Space Marines. Corax used this to try and rebuild his legion(by creating geneseed and even altering it). The Alpha Legion(underrated in the genetics department) tampered with it to the point neither Corax nor Fabius Bile could catch it. They are not fools. By cell, they seem to work better together than most every other traitor legion. They've sustained their base in the material realm outside the Eye of Terror, so it's entirely feasibly they have replenished their own numbers.
I'm asking why you disqualify HH lore when looking for lore about Alpha Legionnaires fighting each other. We KNOW they did. While we don't know how many died of the original 180,000 legionnaires (HH3: Extermination), we can assume from recent books that there must've been quite a few, judging from who were pro-Imperium within the Legion.
The whole thing about the Alpha Legion having the Primarch DNA is undoubtedly an unsolved storyline though, which would be very interesting to know more about.
Shidank wrote: I actually say right in the quote how they disqualify themselves with the time period. If you'd like for me to elaborate(say the same thing but with more words), I'd gladly do it for you. You fine gentleman.
They stole the material on Primarch creation, the foundation of creating Space Marines. Corax used this to try and rebuild his legion(by creating geneseed and even altering it). The Alpha Legion(underrated in the genetics department) tampered with it to the point neither Corax nor Fabius Bile could catch it. They are not fools. By cell, they seem to work better together than most every other traitor legion. They've sustained their base in the material realm outside the Eye of Terror, so it's entirely feasibly they have replenished their own numbers.
I'm asking why you disqualify HH lore when looking for lore about Alpha Legionnaires fighting each other. We KNOW they did. While we don't know how many died of the original 180,000 legionnaires (HH3: Extermination), we can assume from recent books that there must've been quite a few, judging from who were pro-Imperium within the Legion.
The whole thing about the Alpha Legion having the Primarch DNA is undoubtedly an unsolved storyline though, which would be very interesting to know more about.
I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time. It's not an indication for the Alpha Legion of how the next 10 millennium play out like it is for the other traitor legions.
We have a book where White Scars fight one another, yet no one assumes they've been killing one another for ten thousand years and they had MUCH bigger issues to contend with.
It's just unreasonable to me for everyone to assume they've been hacking each other apart like any other traitor legion for so long.
I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time. It's not an indication for the Alpha Legion of how the next 10 millennium play out like it is for the other traitor legions.
We have a book where White Scars fight one another, yet no one assumes they've been killing one another for ten thousand years and they had MUCH bigger issues to contend with.
It's just unreasonable to me for everyone to assume they've been hacking each other apart like any other traitor legion for so long.
Spoilers from Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent (We're turning into Space Wolves with snakes)
Spoiler:
Firstly, I'm addressing your first statement, where you don't see them fighting each other. I think we spoke past each other.
We KNOW Omegon turned on Alpharius (or very heavily implied), and none of the other Legions had twin Primarchs with different agendas during the Heresy which probably would ensure a pretty bad civil war. We don't know how many Alpha Legionnaires fought for the IoM, but if Sheed Ranko, the Captain of the Lernean Terminators, fought against Alpharius, we can assume there were quite a few. Additionally, we know from Seventh Serpent there were even more Loyalists within the Legion who fought Alpharius (probably) himself.
How long this fight lasted we don't know, but if Janus, who emerged from nowhere at the end of the Heresy (First Chapter Master of the Grey Knights), is Omegon, that might suggest Omegon lost the fight against Alpharius and that the Alpha Legion was cleansed of Loyalist factions. However, we don't know definitely how many died or how long the civil war lasted, but we KNOW they did fight each other.
Edit: And I most definitely disagree with disqualifying the HH-era stuff about the Alpha Legion. If we do that we're left with a measly decade-old Index Astartes article.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/03 15:25:12
I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time. It's not an indication for the Alpha Legion of how the next 10 millennium play out like it is for the other traitor legions.
We have a book where White Scars fight one another, yet no one assumes they've been killing one another for ten thousand years and they had MUCH bigger issues to contend with.
It's just unreasonable to me for everyone to assume they've been hacking each other apart like any other traitor legion for so long.
Spoilers from Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent (We're turning into Space Wolves with snakes)
Spoiler:
Firstly, I'm addressing your first statement, where you don't see them fighting each other. I think we spoke past each other.
We KNOW Omegon turned on Alpharius (or very heavily implied), and none of the other Legions had twin Primarchs with different agendas during the Heresy which probably would ensure a pretty bad civil war. We don't know how many Alpha Legionnaires fought for the IoM, but if Sheed Ranko, the Captain of the Lernean Terminators, fought against Alpharius, we can assume there were quite a few. Additionally, we know from Seventh Serpent there were even more Loyalists within the Legion who fought Alpharius (probably) himself.
How long this fight lasted we don't know, but if Janus, who emerged from nowhere at the end of the Heresy (First Chapter Master of the Grey Knights), is Omegon, that might suggest Omegon lost the fight against Alpharius and that the Alpha Legion was cleansed of Loyalist factions. However, we don't know definitely how many died or how long the civil war lasted, but we KNOW they did fight each other.
Edit: And I most definitely disagree with disqualifying the HH-era stuff about the Alpha Legion. If we do that we're left with a measly decade-old Index Astartes article.
It's really just not enough for me. Considering the lightning transitions we get every 7 years out of HH, this is barely a blip on the radar. Propping it up by insinuating the Omegon/Janus theory is more than a theory is insulting to your own cause here.
If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.
It's really just not enough for me. Considering the lightning transitions we get every 7 years out of HH, this is barely a blip on the radar. Propping it up by insinuating the Omegon/Janus theory is more than a theory is insulting to your own cause here.
If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.
I'm not saying it is more than a theory. I'm saying if it is the case, that would give you a potential timeline for the infighting.
Disregarding published and established fluff on the Alpha Legion seems a bit odd to me. We do know they fought each other. I just don't see what you get from denying established canon.
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