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 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


It's really just not enough for me. Considering the lightning transitions we get every 7 years out of HH, this is barely a blip on the radar. Propping it up by insinuating the Omegon/Janus theory is more than a theory is insulting to your own cause here.

If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.

I'm not saying it is more than a theory. I'm saying if it is the case, that would give you a potential timeline for the infighting.

Disregarding published and established fluff on the Alpha Legion seems a bit odd to me. We do know they fought each other. I just don't see what you get from denying established canon.

That would be a uniquely insightful view, save that Titan was hidden away by Malcador with Janus onboard. That would limit the infighting to a small affair before the battle of Terra. Actually, what am I saying, that absolutely reinforced my point if we're assuming there is merit in the theory of Omegon being Janus.

What I get from denying canon? Well, no one seems to be denying canon, so let's avoid blatantly inflammatory remarks suggesting such. To clarify, what I deny is the impact of such canon on 40k. I believe it minor, inconsequential, and nothing if not interesting.

 Shidank wrote:

That would be a uniquely insightful view, save that Titan was hidden away by Malcador with Janus onboard. That would limit the infighting to a small affair before the battle of Terra. Actually, what am I saying, that absolutely reinforced my point if we're assuming there is merit in the theory of Omegon being Janus.

What I get from denying canon? Well, no one seems to be denying canon, so let's avoid blatantly inflammatory remarks suggesting such. To clarify, what I deny is the impact of such canon on 40k. I believe it minor, inconsequential, and nothing if not interesting.

You are denying canon though.

 Shidank wrote:

I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time.

 Shidank wrote:

If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.

There is of course nothing wrong with disregarding fluff, as with regards to wh40k canon it can all be considered Imperial propaganda. Hell, I think certain forum members disregard everything from Legion onwards, but they are honest about it. However, you say you don't take into account a book and short story, then claim you're not taking ignoring fluff. You disqualify HH books, and then say a fluff-documented civil war within the Alpha Legion is inconsequential. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to argue with that; it'd be like dropping what happened on Davin and then blaming the Emperor for sending the Legions after Horus. And while almost all Legions had infighting, none of these rebel factions were led by a Primarch.

I'm not saying the Grey Knights theoretically would have been created for Omegon, rather that if he lost the civil war against Alpharius, he returned to the Imperium and was elevated to Chapter Master by the Emperor. Obviously pure conjecture. It's besides the point either way.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

That would be a uniquely insightful view, save that Titan was hidden away by Malcador with Janus onboard. That would limit the infighting to a small affair before the battle of Terra. Actually, what am I saying, that absolutely reinforced my point if we're assuming there is merit in the theory of Omegon being Janus.

What I get from denying canon? Well, no one seems to be denying canon, so let's avoid blatantly inflammatory remarks suggesting such. To clarify, what I deny is the impact of such canon on 40k. I believe it minor, inconsequential, and nothing if not interesting.

You are denying canon though.

 Shidank wrote:

I disqualify the HH line as an indication of infighting in the Alpha Legion across the last 10,000 years because nearly every legion experienced it at that time.

 Shidank wrote:

If every ounce of evidence you can procure of their infighting can be limited to one(or even two) books in a rapidly disintegrating plotline like HH, I think it's safe to dismiss it.

There is of course nothing wrong with disregarding fluff, as with regards to wh40k canon it can all be considered Imperial propaganda. Hell, I think certain forum members disregard everything from Legion onwards, but they are honest about it. However, you say you don't take into account a book and short story, then claim you're not taking ignoring fluff. You disqualify HH books, and then say a fluff-documented civil war within the Alpha Legion is inconsequential. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to argue with that; it'd be like dropping what happened on Davin and then blaming the Emperor for sending the Legions after Horus. And while almost all Legions had infighting, none of these rebel factions were led by a Primarch.

I'm not saying the Grey Knights theoretically would have been created for Omegon, rather that if he lost the civil war against Alpharius, he returned to the Imperium and was elevated to Chapter Master by the Emperor. Obviously pure conjecture. It's besides the point either way.

If you want to oversell and not expect to be corrected, you're going to have a bad day here. You want to read a snippet where an Eldar plays Pokemon and convince us that all Eldar play Pokemon when that's not only wildly inaccurate and unfounded, but just ignorant and untrue. Your one exception is not biblical law and does nothing to dig yourself out of the hole you dug yourself by bringing Janus into this.

I'll take a moment to refute your claims and leave it at that:

1) "You are denying canon" : No. I'm saying that your story doesn't add up to the Alpha Legion being wiped out in 40k. Frankly, it doesn't. It's silly to try and sell it that way. Just please stop. It's weird.
2) Omegon being Janus means that the period of time you reference in those books took place before the battle of Terra and that all Alpha Legion infighting you witnessed was held to a very VERY small timeline and unless you saw the massive sweeping losses of life necessary to support your claim of the Alpha Legion not having significant numbers in 40k, I'd say you talked yourself out the door on that one. This is based on a theory, though, so we all have to take it with a grain of salt.
3) The times they've been declared wiped out are laughable plot points meant to drive home how little the Imperium knows and how effectively the Alpha Legion sows misinformation. It is in no way meant to indicate diminished numbers. That you missed this or willfully ignored it is...again...weird.
4) You actively dismissed the DoW Alpha Legionnaires as irrelevant author drivel, yet refuse to allow anyone else to do the same. They were propped up as generic Chaos Marines in DoW, so yes. Dismiss them. They demonstrated the same schism as any legion in the books you reference. Dismiss this, as it does not pertain to their numbers in 40k in a significant way when weighed with everything else we know(real space base, geneseed stock, misinformation, thousands of years to recruit, infiltration, etc. etc. etc.)
5) Looking back, it seems more like you were trying to shoehorn your way into the conversation without actually contributing anything but snark. The weirdness is strong in you, my friend.

We'll agree to disagree. I say the evidence supports a near-legion strength Alpha Legion in 40k regardless of GK origins. You can say otherwise and go your own way.

Let's call this thread spam complete for now. I invite you to PM if you feel you were unjustly dismissed here.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Don't sweat it OP. Most of the Alpha Legion comments are just a joke, because the Alpha Legion's fluff has become just that, a very good joke.

Fixed.

 Shidank wrote:


If you want to oversell and not expect to be corrected, you're going to have a bad day here. You want to read a snippet where an Eldar plays Pokemon and convince us that all Eldar play Pokemon when that's not only wildly inaccurate and unfounded, but just ignorant and untrue. Your one exception is not biblical law and does nothing to dig yourself out of the hole you dug yourself by bringing Janus into this.

I'll take a moment to refute your claims and leave it at that:

What? Janus is just one of theories. You are really hung up on that.

 Shidank wrote:

1) "You are denying canon" : No. I'm saying that your story doesn't add up to the Alpha Legion being wiped out in 40k. Frankly, it doesn't. It's silly to try and sell it that way. Just please stop. It's weird.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

But we have no significant loss of life in the AL, why would they have loss half their number?

War within the Alpha Legion and the the three times they've supposedly been wiped out, which would suggest heavy losses.

Where are you getting these quotes from? I said sources of losses were three occasions when the IoM thought they'd wiped them out and the civil war we know happened. These events suggest they lost quite a few soldiers. They were 180,000 before the Heresy, and an unknown amount after.

Furthermore, you are still denying cannon.

 Shidank wrote:

2) Omegon being Janus means that the period of time you reference in those books took place before the battle of Terra and that all Alpha Legion infighting you witnessed was held to a very VERY small timeline and unless you saw the massive sweeping losses of life necessary to support your claim of the Alpha Legion not having significant numbers in 40k, I'd say you talked yourself out the door on that one. This is based on a theory, though, so we all have to take it with a grain of salt.

I've never made that claim. I believe they have significant numbers, and I think they are undoubtedly the largest unified force of Astartes out there, just not that they have been able to remain at Legion strength. Where are you getting these quotes from?!

 Shidank wrote:

3) The times they've been declared wiped out are laughable plot points meant to drive home how little the Imperium knows and how effectively the Alpha Legion sows misinformation. It is in no way meant to indicate diminished numbers. That you missed this or willfully ignored it is...again...weird.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

But we have no significant loss of life in the AL, why would they have loss half their number?

War within the Alpha Legion and the the three times they've supposedly been wiped out, which would suggest heavy losses.

It's implied that they must have lost some amount of soldiers, I'm making no other claim. The amounts we don't know, but I hardly think they'd consider them wiped out by killing a handful.

 Shidank wrote:

4) You actively dismissed the DoW Alpha Legionnaires as irrelevant author drivel, yet refuse to allow anyone else to do the same. They were propped up as generic Chaos Marines in DoW, so yes. Dismiss them. They demonstrated the same schism as any legion in the books you reference. Dismiss this, as it does not pertain to their numbers in 40k in a significant way when weighed with everything else we know(real space base, geneseed stock, misinformation, thousands of years to recruit, infiltration, etc. etc. etc.)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And the Alpha Legion warbands of Carron and Voldorius, which were completely destroyed.

Yeah, let's not mention Carron or any other DoW Alpha Legionnaire ever again.

I've joked about never talking about the DoW Alpha Legion stuff because the characters and story is so incredibly bad. Obviously it's canon, but I find it hard to take fluff-raping Khornate Sorcerers very seriously. But alas, there's now precedence.

 Shidank wrote:

5) Looking back, it seems more like you were trying to shoehorn your way into the conversation without actually contributing anything but snark. The weirdness is strong in you, my friend.

What?

 Shidank wrote:

We'll agree to disagree. I say the evidence supports a near-legion strength Alpha Legion in 40k regardless of GK origins. You can say otherwise and go your own way.

Let's call this thread spam complete for now. I invite you to PM if you feel you were unjustly dismissed here.

Seriously, I don't care what fluff you include in your version of wh40k, I was offering evidence to suggest that they might indeed have lost a lot of SMs. Though why so hung up on the Grey Knights?

Again, I invite you to PM me if you'd prefer to continue rather than take up the thread.

I think the idea that early Knights Errant (marines clad in bland grey) were created from geneseed of alpha legion has some merit. I will cite two sources. I have not read the two short stories aforementioned, for the record. In Extermination, the alpha were built up to be used as an internal police force for the imperium. Working stealthily to get the information needed to be returned to Big E or Malc. At which point they either executed a judgement or sent the early night lords to correct this issue (HH2). Yes, i know that was a slightly circuitous and long winded answer, back on topic. In the newest Garro audio drama (worth listening to), an imperial desk jockey finds the paper trail to a moon in the Sol System. Garro meets said paper pusher and is convinced to tag along. He is tracked down during the course of his time on previously stated moon by marines wearing armour similarly painted as his (bland grey). With how he had trouble tracking them as he was being tracked, I feel the stealth nature and clandestine feel could give credence to certain ideas that Alpha seed could have been used. This could also lend some extra credence to the idea that a loyalist senior member of that legion could have been the first leader. My only reason to support this claim is this...
The HHG book series is 30+ books in with 4 and soon 5 playable books available and SEVERAL audio dramas ready to listen to, with currently 7~6 years left in the chronology of the Heresy, and a character named Janus has not been introduced in ANY book under any legion banner. I personally do not feel that Omegon is said character. Reason for statement is that currently (I haven't read the two short stories (REMINDER)) Omegon was not shown to be a psyker. I did just double check my copy of HH3, Alpharius was not either. So that is the only valid based statement why Omegon was not the first chapter master of the grey, due to their whole force are psykers. Unless he was shown to be a psyker in those two short stories.

Spaz431 wrote:
I think the idea that early Knights Errant (marines clad in bland grey) were created from geneseed of alpha legion has some merit. I will cite two sources. I have not read the two short stories aforementioned, for the record. In Extermination, the alpha were built up to be used as an internal police force for the imperium. Working stealthily to get the information needed to be returned to Big E or Malc. At which point they either executed a judgement or sent the early night lords to correct this issue (HH2). Yes, i know that was a slightly circuitous and long winded answer, back on topic. In the newest Garro audio drama (worth listening to), an imperial desk jockey finds the paper trail to a moon in the Sol System. Garro meets said paper pusher and is convinced to tag along. He is tracked down during the course of his time on previously stated moon by marines wearing armour similarly painted as his (bland grey). With how he had trouble tracking them as he was being tracked, I feel the stealth nature and clandestine feel could give credence to certain ideas that Alpha seed could have been used. This could also lend some extra credence to the idea that a loyalist senior member of that legion could have been the first leader. My only reason to support this claim is this...
The HHG book series is 30+ books in with 4 and soon 5 playable books available and SEVERAL audio dramas ready to listen to, with currently 7~6 years left in the chronology of the Heresy, and a character named Janus has not been introduced in ANY book under any legion banner. I personally do not feel that Omegon is said character. Reason for statement is that currently (I haven't read the two short stories (REMINDER)) Omegon was not shown to be a psyker. I did just double check my copy of HH3, Alpharius was not either. So that is the only valid based statement why Omegon was not the first chapter master of the grey, due to their whole force are psykers. Unless he was shown to be a psyker in those two short stories.

Oh, Janus is not Omegon. I ran with his suggestion to prove that it wasn't viable as a defense simply because it reinforced my own point for him to try.

The "Omegon is Janus" theory has so many holes in it, you could confuse it for a fishing net.

I disagree. So far, it's pretty plausible. It could go either way.

Like a bisexual.

I just find it far too convenient/honestly lazy writing for them to push it in that direction.

It's so easy to break apart, but in one book the BL writers could make it canon. It's just the way it works in this universe. We can hope for a better quality of story, but our dreams are so often dashed on the rocky shores of GW.

Eh, I don't see anything wrong with that being the case. I think it'd be quite cool. Not that I disagree in general about the quality of GW writing.

FWIW I always liked the original Alpha Legion fluff, how they were the last legion so were always trying to prove themselves to their brothers, and that Alpharius was originally swayed because IIRC he looked up to Horus and swore his loyalty, so he felt that he would follow the Warmaster first. It fit perfectly, that was also the reason they were the ALPHA legion, because they wanted to be #1.

This later twin primarchs, hand in everything, are they good or evil stuff is lousy writing IMHO.

That's not far off the mark from my own thinking. While I like the intrigue of the possibility of them being the first legion created and hidden away until the end, the twin primarch storyline smacks of peacocking at this stage of the story.

Also note that the Alpha Legion have whatever part of the Raven Guard's Astartes 2.0 project they stole during the events of Deliverance Lost.

It's quite possible they can replace losses faster than any other legion if they wish to.

locarno24 wrote:
Also note that the Alpha Legion have whatever part of the Raven Guard's Astartes 2.0 project they stole during the events of Deliverance Lost.

It's quite possible they can replace losses faster than any other legion if they wish to.

This.

This is my primary argument against their numbers decreasing by a significant enough margin for them to be counted at less than half legion strength.