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rigeld2 wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

If it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, can it hit an invisible unit?
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"

Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

Which a Flamer can not do. Which is why during Overwatch, it uses WoD instead, which grants D3 hits instead of firing traditional Overwatch.

With the wording for Invisibility, if that is word for word correct, RAW, it's still a toss up. It's how one wants to rule lawyer it.

WoD also cannot be fired as a snap shot. Agreed? Since only Snap Shots can be fired at the target unit, and WoD cannot (per the rules) be fired as a Snap Shot, it cannot be fired at the target unit.
And yes, it's word for word correct - that's why I put quotes around it.

Agreed & agreed

The thing is though, WOD doesn't roll to hit at all, it just generates d3 wounds. As you are just generating wounds, you are not restricted by the invisibility, nor are you breaking that rule.

It wasn't fired at the unit, You never shot at the unit, the unit just takes d3 wounds from a special rule.

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

If it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, can it hit an invisible unit?
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"

Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

Which a Flamer can not do. Which is why during Overwatch, it uses WoD instead, which grants D3 hits instead of firing traditional Overwatch.

With the wording for Invisibility, if that is word for word correct, RAW, it's still a toss up. It's how one wants to rule lawyer it.

WoD also cannot be fired as a snap shot. Agreed? Since only Snap Shots can be fired at the target unit, and WoD cannot (per the rules) be fired as a Snap Shot, it cannot be fired at the target unit.
And yes, it's word for word correct - that's why I put quotes around it.

Agreed & agreed

The thing is though, WOD doesn't roll to hit at all, it just generates d3 wounds. As you are just generating wounds, you are not restricted by the invisibility, nor are you breaking that rule.

It wasn't fired at the unit, You never shot at the unit, the unit just takes d3 wounds from a special rule.

No, wrong. It generates hits. Your whole argument is wrong.

You cannot fire it, as you are prohibited from firing unless firing a snapshot. The flamer is most definitely not firing a snapshot, so it is disallowed from firing. This means you cannot evoke the WoD rule, so never generate the hits

You're demonstrably breaking a rule. Don't break rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

If it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, can it hit an invisible unit?
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"

Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

Which a Flamer can not do. Which is why during Overwatch, it uses WoD instead, which grants D3 hits instead of firing traditional Overwatch.

With the wording for Invisibility, if that is word for word correct, RAW, it's still a toss up. It's how one wants to rule lawyer it.

WoD also cannot be fired as a snap shot. Agreed? Since only Snap Shots can be fired at the target unit, and WoD cannot (per the rules) be fired as a Snap Shot, it cannot be fired at the target unit.
And yes, it's word for word correct - that's why I put quotes around it.

Agreed & agreed

The thing is though, WOD doesn't roll to hit at all, it just generates d3 wounds. As you are just generating wounds, you are not restricted by the invisibility, nor are you breaking that rule.

It wasn't fired at the unit, You never shot at the unit, the unit just takes d3 wounds from a special rule.

No, wrong. It generates hits. Your whole argument is wrong.

You cannot fire it, as you are prohibited from firing unless firing a snapshot. The flamer is most definitely not firing a snapshot, so it is disallowed from firing. This means you cannot evoke the WoD rule, so never generate the hits

You're demonstrably breaking a rule. Don't break rules.

By your logic then no one can ever use WOD, because as we also see under overwatch, any models that can not fire snap shots can not fire overwatch. and templates don't fire snap shots. Oh wait, it's you, you probably play that way.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot"

If it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, can it hit an invisible unit?
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"

Since we've established that WoD is not, in fact, a Snap Shot it cannot be fired at an Invisible unit - because Invisibility requires that all shots fired be Snap Shots.

Which a Flamer can not do. Which is why during Overwatch, it uses WoD instead, which grants D3 hits instead of firing traditional Overwatch.

With the wording for Invisibility, if that is word for word correct, RAW, it's still a toss up. It's how one wants to rule lawyer it.

WoD also cannot be fired as a snap shot. Agreed? Since only Snap Shots can be fired at the target unit, and WoD cannot (per the rules) be fired as a Snap Shot, it cannot be fired at the target unit.
And yes, it's word for word correct - that's why I put quotes around it.

Agreed & agreed

The thing is though, WOD doesn't roll to hit at all, it just generates d3 wounds. As you are just generating wounds, you are not restricted by the invisibility, nor are you breaking that rule.

It wasn't fired at the unit, You never shot at the unit, the unit just takes d3 wounds from a special rule.

No, wrong. It generates hits. Your whole argument is wrong.

You cannot fire it, as you are prohibited from firing unless firing a snapshot. The flamer is most definitely not firing a snapshot, so it is disallowed from firing. This means you cannot evoke the WoD rule, so never generate the hits

You're demonstrably breaking a rule. Don't break rules.

By your logic then no one can ever use WOD, because as we also see under overwatch, any models that can not fire snap shots can not fire overwatch. and templates don't fire snap shots. Oh wait, it's you, you probably play that way.

Sigh. Apparently I expected ra reasoned response. My bad.

Nothing about your argument bring factually wrong? Or that of course you can normally use wall of death, as it has a specific exemption to the over watch rules? It just doesn't have a specific exemption to the invisibility rule. As has been proven. Over and over and over..

No, just another ad hominem.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Agreed & agreed

The thing is though, WOD doesn't roll to hit at all

And there's the problem. To fire at the Invisible unit, you must fire a Snap Shot.

In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Are you going to argue that WoD isn't a shooting attack, despite the existing evidence?

Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch (see below).

It's a special kind of shooting attack, but it's explicitly a shooting attack.
Since it can't be fired as a Snap Shot (because it doesn't use Ballistic Skill) it can't be fired at an Invisible unit.

it just generates d3 wounds. As you are just generating wounds, you are not restricted by the invisibility, nor are you breaking that rule.

Absolutely incorrect. It generates d3 *hits* (an important distinction that you're not the only one to screw up). As you are generating hits, and it's a shooting attack, and the Template weapon fired at the unit, Invisibility does restrict it.

It wasn't fired at the unit, You never shot at the unit, the unit just takes d3 wounds from a special rule.

It was fired at the unit - Wall of Death says so.

nstead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch

How do you fire Overwatch?

As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker

Overwatch is fired at the would-be attacker. So any claims that Wall of Death doesn't fire at the Invisible unit are demonstrably incorrect or making up rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Overwatch is fired at the would-be attacker. So any claims that Wall of Death doesn't fire at the Invisible unit are demonstrably incorrect or making up rules.

Yes it fires at the unit, it fires overwatch instead of snapshots.

This is really just the old imotech's lightning against fliers argument all over again, and those arguing that it did affect fliers ended up being right for the reasons they believed they were right.

But as invisiblity is already highly debated, it has been nerfed and changed in some tournies already. And as I've found, what you & nos argue the FAQ's usually come out against you.

Look at adepticon for example:

Use the following clarifications for the Invisibility psychic power:
Any attacks or special abilities that can cause damage (i.e. hits, wounds and/or vehicle damage) without rolling to hit (e.g. Codex: Chaos Daemons Warp Storm Tables, etc) affect invisible units normally

so keep jousting this windmill, I'm outa here.

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Overwatch is fired at the would-be attacker. So any claims that Wall of Death doesn't fire at the Invisible unit are demonstrably incorrect or making up rules.

Yes it fires at the unit, it fires overwatch instead of snapshots.

Correct.

This is really just the old imotech's lightning against fliers argument all over again, and those arguing that it did affect fliers ended up being right for the reasons they believed they were right.

Um. How is that even close to relevant? Right - it's not.

But as invisiblity is already highly debated, it has been nerfed and changed in some tournies already. And as I've found, what you & nos argue the FAQ's usually come out against you.

Now I remember why I had you on ignore. You're saying "Sure, the rules might be written that way, but no one follows those rules so there!" And no, the FAQ's don't "usually come out against" me.

Look at adepticon for example:

Let's not since this discussion has literally nothing to do with house rules.

It's a good thing you're out of here (your words) - you're not attempting to have a polite discussion about rules, you're attempting to bully people into changing the written rules and accepting something else.
Adepticon is literally changing the rules for their tournament. Which is fine - they can do that.

Invisibility says, "enemy units may only fire snapshots" but does not say that it makes the unit invulnerable auto-hits.

Wall of death skips the entire "roll to hit" part of the shooting phase and says it causes d3 hits - automatically.

Until they come out with an FAQ that says "invisibility makes the unit invulnerable to all weapons that cause auto-hits", saying that wall of death doesn't affect them is a house rule.

Discuss it with your opponent. If he agrees, then great! You can both have a fun game together. If he disagrees you'll need to roll off because the rules are so ambiguous that it's disturbing that you can deny the ambiguity - I mean the level of suspended disbelief necessary is more than I can stomach. If you can't admit that it's ambiguous then you're not really discussing, you're just raising your voice to drown out the people who disagree with you.

I find it humorous that this was changed from a poll when it was seen that 90% of Dakka agreed that Wall of Death did in fact hit invisible units.

 NightHowler wrote:
Invisibility says, "enemy units may only fire snapshots" but does not say that it makes the unit invulnerable auto-hits.

Wall of death skips the entire "roll to hit" part of the shooting phase and says it causes d3 hits - automatically.

Was Wall of Death fired as a snap shot? Yes or No.
Can Wall of Death ever be 'fired' as a Snap Shot? Yes or No.

Until they come out with an FAQ that says "invisibility makes the unit invulnerable to all weapons that cause auto-hits", saying that wall of death doesn't affect them is a house rule.

Incorrect. I've quoted the rules to support that Invisible units cannot be fired at in Overwatch by a Template weapon. You've cited no rules contradicting me, instead preferring to say that I'm wrong, call it a house rule, or insist there's ambiguity.

Discuss it with your opponent. If he agrees, then great! You can both have a fun game together. If he disagrees you'll need to roll off because the rules are so ambiguous that it's disturbing that you can deny the ambiguity - I mean the level of suspended disbelief necessary is more than I can stomach. If you can't admit that it's ambiguous then you're not really discussing, you're just raising your voice to drown out the people who disagree with you.

Where's the ambiguity? Show me the vague rule. Quote one rule that supports your viewpoint.

I find it humorous that this was changed from a poll when it was seen that 90% of Dakka agreed that Wall of Death did in fact hit invisible units.

I'm amused that you think this supports your position in a rules based discussion.

sirlynchmob wrote:
The thing is though, WOD doesn't roll to hit at all, it just generates d3 wounds. As you are just generating wounds, you are not restricted by the invisibility, nor are you breaking that rule.

It wasn't fired at the unit, You never shot at the unit, the unit just takes d3 wounds from a special rule.

A good summary of what i was trying to say in a convoluted way. (D3 Hits, though)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You cannot fire it, as you are prohibited from firing unless firing a snapshot. The flamer is most definitely not firing a snapshot, so it is disallowed from firing. This means you cannot evoke the WoD rule, so never generate the hits

You're demonstrably breaking a rule. Don't break rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

It wasn't fired at the unit, You never shot at the unit, the unit just takes d3 wounds from a special rule.

It was fired at the unit - Wall of Death says so.

nstead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch

How do you fire Overwatch?

As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker

Overwatch is fired at the would-be attacker. So any claims that Wall of Death doesn't fire at the Invisible unit are demonstrably incorrect or making up rules.

How does Invisibility prohibit firing of a weapon? Please quote rules for this.
Invisibility, as quoted:

enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6

Has 2 Restrictions:
Enemy Units can only fire Snap Shots.
Enemy Units can only hit on 6s.

What is a snap shot? Firing at BS1, and needing a 6 To Hit.

Now, answer the next one carefully:
Why does Hammer of Wrath affect an Invisible Unit?

rigeld2 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Invisibility says, "enemy units may only fire snapshots" but does not say that it makes the unit invulnerable auto-hits.

Wall of death skips the entire "roll to hit" part of the shooting phase and says it causes d3 hits - automatically.

Was Wall of Death fired as a snap shot? Yes or No.
Can Wall of Death ever be 'fired' as a Snap Shot? Yes or No.

Until they come out with an FAQ that says "invisibility makes the unit invulnerable to all weapons that cause auto-hits", saying that wall of death doesn't affect them is a house rule.

Incorrect. I've quoted the rules to support that Invisible units cannot be fired at in Overwatch by a Template weapon. You've cited no rules contradicting me, instead preferring to say that I'm wrong, call it a house rule, or insist there's ambiguity.

Discuss it with your opponent. If he agrees, then great! You can both have a fun game together. If he disagrees you'll need to roll off because the rules are so ambiguous that it's disturbing that you can deny the ambiguity - I mean the level of suspended disbelief necessary is more than I can stomach. If you can't admit that it's ambiguous then you're not really discussing, you're just raising your voice to drown out the people who disagree with you.

Where's the ambiguity? Show me the vague rule. Quote one rule that supports your viewpoint.

I find it humorous that this was changed from a poll when it was seen that 90% of Dakka agreed that Wall of Death did in fact hit invisible units.

I'm amused that you think this supports your position in a rules based discussion.

Could you raise your voice a little more? You haven't drown everyone out yet.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Now, answer the next one carefully:
Why does Hammer of Wrath affect an Invisible Unit?

Because it generates an automatic hit and there's no clause preventing this from happening like there is with Snap Shots. I've answered your question with this before and you've literally ignored it before.
WoD doesn't work because it cannot 'fire' as a snap shot. If that clause wasn't there it'd work perfectly fine - it 'fires' as a Snap Shot but automatically hits.

You agreed with sirlynch when he said things that were demonstrably incorrect.
It is fired at the unit (WoD rules say so), you do shoot at the unit (Overwatch rules say so) and therefore you cannot 'fire' a Template weapon using Wall of Death at an Invisible unit.
Invisibility prohibits the firing of a weapon that cannot Snap Shot - and Template Weapons (even those firing Wall of Death) cannot Snap Shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NightHowler wrote:
Could you raise your voice a little more? You haven't drown everyone out yet.

Have a rules based objection to literally anything I've cited yet?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Now, answer the next one carefully:
Why does Hammer of Wrath affect an Invisible Unit?

Because it generates an automatic hit and there's no clause preventing this from happening like there is with Snap Shots. I've answered your question with this before and you've literally ignored it before.
WoD doesn't work because it cannot 'fire' as a snap shot. If that clause wasn't there it'd work perfectly fine - it 'fires' as a Snap Shot but automatically hits.

You agreed with sirlynch when he said things that were demonstrably incorrect.
It is fired at the unit (WoD rules say so), you do shoot at the unit (Overwatch rules say so) and therefore you cannot 'fire' a Template weapon using Wall of Death at an Invisible unit.
Invisibility prohibits the firing of a weapon that cannot Snap Shot - and Template Weapons (even those firing Wall of Death) cannot Snap Shot.

Invisibility does not prohibit the firing of a weapon that cannot snap shot.

It says that a unit can only fire snap shots at the target unit but does not say anything about weapons that have a special ability which causes auto-hits. You're extrapolating. To say that you could possibly be correct is fine. To say with 100% certainty that you are absolutely correct with 0 margin for error and that this is a concrete open and closed case is absurdity and the fact that 90% of dakka disagrees with you is quite telling.

rigeld2 wrote:
Have a rules based objection to literally anything I've cited yet?

Yes. But you keep ignoring it and saying that you've disproved it. I'm saying it's ambiguous. You're saying that it's 100% clear and that you can't use wall of death against invisible units.

Answer me this. Do you think that 90% of the people on Dakka are so completely incapable of understanding the rules that they would disagree with something that is (according to you) obviously true?

Black talos - if your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it at a unit that REQUIRES you to fire snapshots?

Answer carefully an actual question, when yours have been answered more than once.

Again, go through the proven statements, and disprove them. You have yet to do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black talos - if your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it at a unit that REQUIRES you to fire snapshots?

Answer carefully an actual question, when yours have been answered more than once.

Again, go through the proven statements, and disprove them. You have yet to do so.

Your question should say, "If your weapon can only fire snapshots, are you allowed to used that weapons special ability which causes d3 hits automatically?"

The answer is yes.

 NightHowler wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Now, answer the next one carefully:
Why does Hammer of Wrath affect an Invisible Unit?

Because it generates an automatic hit and there's no clause preventing this from happening like there is with Snap Shots. I've answered your question with this before and you've literally ignored it before.
WoD doesn't work because it cannot 'fire' as a snap shot. If that clause wasn't there it'd work perfectly fine - it 'fires' as a Snap Shot but automatically hits.

You agreed with sirlynch when he said things that were demonstrably incorrect.
It is fired at the unit (WoD rules say so), you do shoot at the unit (Overwatch rules say so) and therefore you cannot 'fire' a Template weapon using Wall of Death at an Invisible unit.
Invisibility prohibits the firing of a weapon that cannot Snap Shot - and Template Weapons (even those firing Wall of Death) cannot Snap Shot.

Invisibility does not prohibit the firing of a weapon that cannot snap shot.

It absolutely does.

Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

Are you firing at the unit? It must be a Snap Shot.

It says that a unit can only fire snap shots at the target unit but does not say anything about weapons that have a special ability which causes auto-hits.

No, the Snap Shot rule says that.

rigeld2 wrote:
Have a rules based objection to literally anything I've cited yet?

Yes. But you keep ignoring it and saying that you've disproved it. I'm saying it's ambiguous. You're saying that it's 100% clear and that you can't use wall of death against invisible units.

Where's the ambiguity? Can weapons that do not use Ballistic Skill be 'fired' as a Snap Shot? It's a Yes or No question.
Do hits from Wall of Death use Ballistic Skill? It's a Yes or No question.

Answer me this. Do you think that 90% of the people on Dakka are so completely incapable of understanding the rules that they would disagree with something that is (according to you) obviously true?

Based on past polls, yes. And it's not 90% of the people on Dakka - it's 90% of the people who visited this thread and voted in the poll. Many people vote in the poll and then read the thread which means they aren't actually trying to understand the rule interactions.
I guarantee that if I put up a poll asking if, in 6th edition, Wraithknights could draw LoS to anything 90+% of the respondents would vote yes - despite it literally being against the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NightHowler wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black talos - if your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it at a unit that REQUIRES you to fire snapshots?

Answer carefully an actual question, when yours have been answered more than once.

Again, go through the proven statements, and disprove them. You have yet to do so.

Your question should say, "If your weapon can only fire snapshots, are you allowed to used that weapons special ability which causes d3 hits automatically?"

The answer is yes.

No, it's not.

In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

The weapon is firing a shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill. It cannot be fired as a Snap Shot. Open and shut, no ambiguity.

 NightHowler wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black talos - if your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it at a unit that REQUIRES you to fire snapshots?

Answer carefully an actual question, when yours have been answered more than once.

Again, go through the proven statements, and disprove them. You have yet to do so.

Your question should say, "If your weapon can only fire snapshots, are you allowed to used that weapons special ability which causes d3 hits automatically?"

The answer is yes.

Why would I create a question that is wrong in that way? It's almost like you're deliberately omitting rules to suit your debunked argument. I assume this isn't correct, as that would be a dishonest way to argue.

How are you evoking the special rule wall of death without firing the template weapon. Please explain, as your question above is woefully incomplete and wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Now, answer the next one carefully:
Why does Hammer of Wrath affect an Invisible Unit?

Because it generates an automatic hit and there's no clause preventing this from happening like there is with Snap Shots. I've answered your question with this before and you've literally ignored it before.
WoD doesn't work because it cannot 'fire' as a snap shot. If that clause wasn't there it'd work perfectly fine - it 'fires' as a Snap Shot but automatically hits.

You agreed with sirlynch when he said things that were demonstrably incorrect.
It is fired at the unit (WoD rules say so), you do shoot at the unit (Overwatch rules say so) and therefore you cannot 'fire' a Template weapon using Wall of Death at an Invisible unit.
Invisibility prohibits the firing of a weapon that cannot Snap Shot - and Template Weapons (even those firing Wall of Death) cannot Snap Shot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black talos - if your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it at a unit that REQUIRES you to fire snapshots?

Answer carefully an actual question, when yours have been answered more than once.

Again, go through the proven statements, and disprove them. You have yet to do so.

WoD generates Automatic Hits just like Hammer of Wrath does.
When you Overwatch, weapons cannot "Fire" as snap shots.
Wall of Death generates D3 Hits when a Template weapon is fired. But that weapon was not allowed to fire (clearly in the Snap Shot Rules).
The "instead" from Wall of Death is generating Auto-Hits if you select and "fire" a Template weapon. Even though it is not allowed to do so, IE it can never count as "firing at" the charging Unit.

If your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it at a unit that REQUIRES you to fire snapshots?
No

If your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it during overwatch?
Wall of Death says you can: the Enemy Unit gets D3 Auto-Hits.

What does an invisible Unit do with D3 Auto-Hits?

The same clause you are using for Wall of Death: "Enemy Units can only fire Snap Shots."
Is the same clause that would apply to Hammer of Wrath: "Enemy Units can only hit on 6s."

Using your words:
"Hammer of Wrath doesn't work because it cannot 'To Hit' as a 6. If that clause wasn't there it'd work perfectly fine - it 'To Hit' on a 6 but automatically hits."

Both rules are identical, they cover the 3rd Phase of Combat / Shooting results:
Enemy Units can only fire Snap Shots.
Enemy Units can only hit on 6s.

Hammer of Wrath and Wall of Death both ignore this restriction: They Auto-Hit.

Consistency, please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How are you evoking the special rule wall of death without firing the template weapon. Please explain, as your question above is woefully incomplete and wrong.

How are you evoking the special rule Hammer of Wrath without being in close combat?
In close combat, you "will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6"

Did Hammer of Wrath roll a 6?
Should be easy.

 BlackTalos wrote:
WoD generates Automatic Hits just like Hammer of Wrath does.
When you Overwatch, weapons cannot "Fire" as snap shots.
Wall of Death generates D3 Hits when a Template weapon is fired. But that weapon was not allowed to fire (clearly in the Snap Shot Rules).

False. Wall of Death allows it to fire Overwatch.

The "instead" from Wall of Death is generating Auto-Hits if you select and "fire" a Template weapon. Even though it is not allowed to do so, IE it can never count as "firing at" the charging Unit.

Even though the actual rule doesn't say it counts as firing, or is only kind of firing, you're insisting that it doesn't fire, it "fires". Is that right?

If your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it during overwatch?
Wall of Death says you can: the Enemy Unit gets D3 Auto-Hits.

So you are firing it during Overwatch. You're confusing.

What does an invisible Unit do with D3 Auto-Hits?

The same clause you are using for Wall of Death: "Enemy Units can only fire Snap Shots."
Is the same clause that would apply to Hammer of Wrath: "Enemy Units can only hit on 6s."

Using your words:
"Hammer of Wrath doesn't work because it cannot 'To Hit' as a 6. If that clause wasn't there it'd work perfectly fine - it 'To Hit' on a 6 but automatically hits."

Both rules are identical, they cover the 3rd Phase of Combat / Shooting results:
Enemy Units can only fire Snap Shots.
Enemy Units can only hit on 6s.

Hammer of Wrath and Wall of Death both ignore this restriction: They Auto-Hit.

Consistency, please.

Weapons that auto hit cannot be fired as a Snap Shot. Yes or no? Just answer this one question instead of lying about what I've said.

Edit to Talos - Sigh. Some structure, please.

There is no equivalent to snapshot in close combat. There just isn't. Stop equating two stunningly different rules as if they're similar.

Hammer of wrath auto hits because there is no rule in close combat disallowing auto hits when you are told to hit on a set value. Find a rule saying this. I'll wait. Cf. to 5th ed vehicle moved over 6" and then immobilised, it is hit automatically AND hit on 6s. One satisfies the other.

The template never fires, therefore can never evoke the special rule activated after it fires, therefore never gets to generate auto hits. Because, to fire the template weapon - and the rules DO STATE, OVER AND OVER WE HAVE SAID THIS, THAT THE WEAPON FIRES- you must not snapshot, yet you are required to snapshot.

You are breaking a rule - you are demonstrably NOT SNAPSHOTTING - therefore you have cheated. As cheating is generally frowned upon, the only way to not cheat is to not fire.

Please, show how you are firing a snapshot. Page and graph. Now,

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How are you evoking the special rule wall of death without firing the template weapon. Please explain, as your question above is woefully incomplete and wrong.

How are you evoking the special rule Hammer of Wrath without being in close combat?
In close combat, you "will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6"

Did Hammer of Wrath roll a 6?
Should be easy.

Stop comparing things that have different rules surrounding them. Maybe you'll see it in bold.

Shooting Attacks (Overwatch) must involve the Snap Shot rules.
There is no clause about weapons that don't use a Weapon Skill involved in the Hammer of Wrath chain like there is in the Wall of Death chain. Your argument consistently ignores that fact and as such cannot be considered correct.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
WoD generates Automatic Hits just like Hammer of Wrath does.
When you Overwatch, weapons cannot "Fire" as snap shots.
Wall of Death generates D3 Hits when a Template weapon is fired. But that weapon was not allowed to fire (clearly in the Snap Shot Rules).

False. Wall of Death allows it to fire Overwatch.

The "instead" from Wall of Death is generating Auto-Hits if you select and "fire" a Template weapon. Even though it is not allowed to do so, IE it can never count as "firing at" the charging Unit.

Even though the actual rule doesn't say it counts as firing, or is only kind of firing, you're insisting that it doesn't fire, it "fires". Is that right?

If your weapon cannot fire as a snapshot, are you allowed to fire it during overwatch?
Wall of Death says you can: the Enemy Unit gets D3 Auto-Hits.

So you are firing it during Overwatch. You're confusing.

What does an invisible Unit do with D3 Auto-Hits?

The same clause you are using for Wall of Death: "Enemy Units can only fire Snap Shots."
Is the same clause that would apply to Hammer of Wrath: "Enemy Units can only hit on 6s."

Using your words:
"Hammer of Wrath doesn't work because it cannot 'To Hit' as a 6. If that clause wasn't there it'd work perfectly fine - it 'To Hit' on a 6 but automatically hits."

Both rules are identical, they cover the 3rd Phase of Combat / Shooting results:
Enemy Units can only fire Snap Shots.
Enemy Units can only hit on 6s.

Hammer of Wrath and Wall of Death both ignore this restriction: They Auto-Hit.

Consistency, please.

Weapons that auto hit cannot be fired as a Snap Shot. Yes or no? Just answer this one question instead of lying about what I've said.

Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is no equivalent to snapshot in close combat. There just isn't. Stop equating two stunningly different rules as if they're similar.

There is: rolling a 6 To Hit.
Do i need to define what a Snap Shot is?
Thought that'd be clear....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hammer of wrath auto hits because there is no rule in close combat disallowing auto hits when you are told to hit on a set value.

Wall of Death auto hits because there is no rule in shooting disallowing auto hits when you are told to hit on a set value. (BS1)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The template never fires, therefore can never evoke the special rule activated after it fires, therefore never gets to generate auto hits.

Why does it never fire?
And i would point out Wall of Death does not happen after you select the weapon and fire it (like "no Escape")
It is a rule that provides Auto-Hits to a charging Unit when the weapon is selected ("if a Template weapon fires Overwatch").

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Weapons that auto hit cannot be fired as a Snap Shot. Yes or no?

Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

Not a relevant question. There's no restriction for CC attacks that auto hit in the Hammer of Wrath chain.
There is in the Wall of Death chain. You continue to ignore that difference.

There is: rolling a 6 To Hit.
Do i need to define what a Snap Shot is?
Thought that'd be clear....

A Snap Shot is very much more than simply requiring a 6 to hit. The reason your argument fails is that you fail to apply all the rules.

Wall of Death auto hits because there is no rule in shooting disallowing auto hits when you are told to hit on a set value. (BS1)

Despite the rule I've quoted multiple times proving there is? Seriously? Do you just not read posts?

blacktalos wrote:
Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?

blacktalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is no equivalent to snapshot in close combat. There just isn't. Stop equating two stunningly different rules as if they're similar.

There is: rolling a 6 To Hit.
Do i need to define what a Snap Shot is?
Thought that'd be clear....

How is that similar to the clause disallowing automatic hits? Please reference the same clause in invis. Page and graph. 2nd time of asking.

blacktalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hammer of wrath auto hits because there is no rule in close combat disallowing auto hits when you are told to hit on a set value.

Wall of Death auto hits because there is no rule in shooting disallowing auto hits when you are told to hit on a set value. (BS1)

Good job that isn't all of the snapshot restriction then! It's almost like yours arguing dishonestly by leaving out key parts of a rule. Don't.

Snapshot has more restrictions. Such as not being able to fire template weapons. Invis requires you to fire a snapshot. Show how you haves one so - page and grAoh.

blacktalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The template never fires, therefore can never evoke the special rule activated after it fires, therefore never gets to generate auto hits.

Why does it never fire?

Because when firing at the unit you can only fire snapshots. Any weapon unabl to fire snapshots csnnot fire. I am unsure how this concept is evading you.

Please, explain how you are selecting a weapon to fire, when firing it breaks a rule. Is cheating allowable now?

blacktalos wrote:
And i would point out Wall of Death does not happen after you select the weapon and fire it (like "no Escape")
It is a rule that provides Auto-Hits to a charging Unit when the weapon is selected ("if a Template weapon fires Overwatch").

Indeed. It happens after selecting the weapon and fire it, as the rule literally requires you to fire the template weapon. If you do not select, and fire, the template weapon, you never get to the special rule

This is all proven through rules quotes. You have yet to offer a single argument that doesn't rely on ignoring, rewriting, or partially quoting rules.

The rule seems pretty clear to me.

1) Invisible units can only be fired at by snap shots.

2) WoD is not a snap shot.

3) WoD can not fire at Invisible unit.

If WoD is does not fire a snap shot, how is it hitting a unit that can only be targeted by snap shots?

Someone come prove me wrong.

They can't. That's the point

WoD gives an exemption to the over watch rule, and does this by creating a non snapshot firing allowance. It doesn't give an exemption to the invisibility requirement, but apparently they're similar, so that's good enough. Or something else as incoherent. It's hard to tell any longer.

 Ignatius wrote:
The rule seems pretty clear to me.

1) Invisible units can only be fired at by snap shots.

2) WoD is not a snap shot.

3) WoD can not fire at Invisible unit.

If WoD is does not fire a snap shot, how is it hitting a unit that can only be targeted by snap shots?

Someone come prove me wrong.

I've got one better for you.

1) During overwatch, a unit can only fire snap shots.

2) Template weapons cannot be shot as snap shots.

3) WoD kicks in and tells you to assign d3 hits to the unit.

It doesn't matter if the unit that is being overwatched is invisible or not. Invisibility does not confer the 'Hard to Hit' rule found on flyers and FMC's.

Relevant rules:

Snap Shots pg 32 wrote:Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots -- opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn (pg 41) or when units make Overwatch shots (pf 45). If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot, as explained on page 9).

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1. Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic Skill of 1.

Hitting your target is not always enough to put it out of action. The shot might result in nothing more than a superficial graze or flesh wound.

Notice how the snap shot rule is missing the prevention that if a shot is a snap shot it cannot auto hit?

Template Weapons pg173 wrote:Wall of Death
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value. Don’t worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy. If the charge is successful, it doesn’t matter anyway. If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into range of the Template weapon and were driven back.

Notice how WoD doesn't even care about snap shots. WoD has explicit permission to fire Overwatch.

TL: DR := Invisibility is lacking the "Hard to Hit" special rule, ergo Wall of Death is allowed.

edit: spelling fails =\

 Mulletdude wrote:
I've got one better for you.

1) During overwatch, a unit can only fire snap shots.

2) Template weapons cannot be shot as snap shots.

3) WoD kicks in and tells you to assign d3 hits to the unit.

It doesn't matter if the unit that is being overwatched is invisible or not. Invisibility does not confer the 'Hard to Hit' rule found on flyers and FMC's.

You're failing to read the rule you quoted.

Snap Shots pg 32 wrote:Under specific curcumstances, models must fire Snap Shots -- opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn (pg 41) or when units make Overwatch shots (pf 45). If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot, as explained on page 9).

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1. Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic Skill of 1.

Hitting your target is not always enough to put it out of action. The shot might result in nothing more than a superficial graze or flesh wound.

Notice how the snap shot rule is missing the prevention that if a shot is a snap shot it cannot auto hit?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blacktalos wrote:
Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?

Please quote the rule saying no-auto hits on snap shots. I'd love to see it.

 Mulletdude wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blacktalos wrote:
Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?

Please quote the rule saying no-auto hits on snap shots. I'd love to see it.

You quoted it.

In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Do shots that automatically hit use Ballistic Skill?