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So, I'm trying to come up with a list for a tournament I'll be attending in April. Max points is 2000 and they are allowing unlimited CADs. One of my peeps is trying to build an Eldar list of nothing but farseers and windriders. I think he came up with something like 30+ jetbikes. So what is the most broken list one could run besides Eldar? I have Necrons, Tau and started Tyranids. I'm kinda leaning towards the Farsight list because there will be maelstrom objectives in the missions and with all of those suits JSJing about I should be able to get to objectives fairly quickly. Here's a couple lists I've been contemplating:

Farsight list:

CAD #1
Ethereal
3x Crisis Suits with 2x missile pods, Bonding Knife Ritual
1x Crisis Suits with 2x missile pods, Bonding Knife Ritual
Riptide, Velocity Tracker
Riptide, Ion Accelerator, Velocity Tracker

CAD #2
Ethereal
3x Crisis Suits with 2x missile pods, Bonding Knife Ritual
1x Crisis Suits with 2x missile pods, Bonding Knife Ritual
Riptide, Velocity Tracker
Riptide, Ion Accelerator, Velocity Tracker

CAD #3
Ethereal
3x Crisis Suits with 2x missile pods, Bonding Knife Ritual
1x Crisis Suits with 2x burst cannons, Bonding Knife Ritual
Riptide, Velocity Tracker
Riptide, Ion Accelerator, Velocity Tracker


Tyranids:

CAD #1
Hive Tyrant, 2x TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Wings, Electroshock Grubs
Hive Tyrant, 2x TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Wings, Electroshock Grubs
Hive Tyrant, 2x TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Wings, Electroshock Grubs
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster

CAD #2
Hive Tyrant, 2x TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Wings, Electroshock Grubs
Hive Tyrant, 2x TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Wings, Electroshock Grubs
Hive Crone
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster

CAD #3
Hive Tyrant, 2x TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Wings, Electroshock Grubs
Hive Tyrant, 2x TL Devourer w/Brainleech Worms, Wings, Electroshock Grubs
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster

Necrons

CAD #1
Cryptek
5x Immortals
5x Immortals
6X Canoptek Wraiths, 5xWhip Coils
6X Canoptek Wraiths, 5xWhip Coils
6X Canoptek Wraiths, 5xWhip Coils

CAD #2
Cryptek
5x Immortals
5x Immortals
6X Canoptek Wraiths, 5xWhip Coils
6X Canoptek Wraiths, 5xWhip Coils
6X Canoptek Wraiths, 5xWhip Coils

All of theese are evil beyond compare!!! i pray for the souls of the opponents!!

the Hextide list is nasty, and 9 hive tyrants (please say there not flying!!)

Shoot those are supposed to be flyrants but I forgot to add the wings. That'll probably cost me one.

Oh yea 8 thats soooooo much nicer haha

Good catch. I edited the list. Brought it down to 7 flyrants + a crone. It's hard though 'cause Necrons are my favorite army. I can't imagine running 36 wraiths

I know you think Eldar is good and all, but it only gets worse in multiple CADs, not better, at least at that point level.

The Tyranid list is a prime example of a skew list, same for the Necrons.

Really weak lists if they meet their nemesis, crazy strong otherwise.

If you're expecting such skew lists from your opponents, it's better to go for an unusual skew list, flyrant spam is one of the most obvious and some players will be bringing counters for sure.

Yeah, that's why I'm leaning towards the Tau lists just 'cause as skewed as it is it does address mission issues like holding objectives at least in my turn anyway.

My peep who's going to play Eldar says he'll be generating around 36 dice during the psychic phase.

Well Nid is illegal due to 3 HQs in one of the CADs.

The Tau list has some odd configs. Why VTs on all the Riptides? They suck at AA even with them. Why no EWOs? Also I would drop all the weapons from the solo suits and get more naked solo suits. I would consider moving one of the 3 man units over to fusion to deal with high AV.

Necrons is pretty woeful. Why spam Wraiths of all things? One of the few units that actually got needed in the new book. Why not Tomb blades or Destroyer Cults? You know the good stuff?

 necron99 wrote:
Yeah, that's why I'm leaning towards the Tau lists just 'cause as skewed as it is it does address mission issues like holding objectives at least in my turn anyway.

My peep who's going to play Eldar says he'll be generating around 36 dice during the psychic phase.

Which is less than you can do in a CAD+Allied list, and unlikely to result in anything competitive (I can see the psychic blob and 4 units of jetbikes from a mile away, just not it being useful).

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well Nid is illegal due to 3 HQs in one of the CADs.

The Tau list has some odd configs. Why VTs on all the Riptides? They suck at AA even with them. Why no EWOs? Also I would drop all the weapons from the solo suits and get more naked solo suits. I would consider moving one of the 3 man units over to fusion to deal with high AV.

Necrons is pretty woeful. Why spam Wraiths of all things? One of the few units that actually got needed in the new book. Why not Tomb blades or Destroyer Cults? You know the good stuff?

That one Tyranid CAD is a Hive Fleet Detachment from the Shield of Baal Leviathan supplement.

Wraiths, for some reason, got a HUGE boost in the new dex. Going to T5 and whip coils making them I5 is awesome sauce. The problem I've found with the destroyer cult and the tomb blades is that, for the most part, they are like bringing a knife to a gun fight. When you go to a tournament you're going to see a preponderance of 2+ armor. Either with termies, dreadknights, riptides, etc. Gauss is great but you need to be able to put out a huge amount of it to start causing wounds on 2+ armor. Now heavy destroyers are another story. Whereas wraiths can catch most things and kill them - or tar pit them.

I think VTs on the HBC tides is decent enough against the bevy of flyrants we see these days at tournaments. Broadsides are probably better AA. I revamped my list a bit for the Tau list giving the ion tides EWO. I was planning on holding the solo suits in reserve and DSing them to try and get some rear armor melta shots on vehicles. PS. I changed out the solo suits missile pods for 2x fusion blasters

That one Tyranid CAD is a Hive Fleet Detachment from the Shield of Baal Leviathan supplement.

Then it is not a CAD as you stated.

Wraiths, for some reason, got a HUGE boost in the new dex. Going to T5 and whip coils making them I5 is awesome sauce. The problem I've found with the destroyer cult and the tomb blades is that, for the most part, they are like bringing a knife to a gun fight. When you go to a tournament you're going to see a preponderance of 2+ armor. Either with termies, dreadknights, riptides, etc. Gauss is great but you need to be able to put out a huge amount of it to start causing wounds on 2+ armor. Now heavy destroyers are another story. Whereas wraiths can catch most things and kill them - or tar pit them.

Yeah Wraiths got a nerf not a boost in the new codex. They gained +1T which makes firing lascannons and MLs pointless at them. Guess what the 3++ meant that was true anyway, and S10 can now ID them when before it could get soaked by the T6 squad leader. That +1T helps against their weakness to volumefire though right except for S7 volume fire probably the most common strength for volume fire (auto cannons, missile pods, Broadsides, Wave Serpents Lootas) and they lost the 2+ save tank for that too. Their weakness before was damage output which has just got worse too as they've lost PE and the 3/4 S7 Ap1 attacks they used to have. So not a huge boost a pointless boost that hasn't really helped them and a massive nerf. They are a great fast tarpit but they don't actually kill stuff and don't want to fight a Knight.

2+ saves are prevalent (though not on Terminators) but there are also lots of Marine Biker or Pod lists, Tyranid MC lists blob guard and mech spam lists. Tomb blades and Destroyers wreck all of those and the later puts enough volume fire to down the 2+ units (more wounds per point than normal necron warriors, ignoring the additions of Ap4 ignores cover and mobility).

Yeah HBC with VT makes some sense (most when paired with an ECPA and EWO), on Iontides it is a waste.

 FlingitNow wrote:

That one Tyranid CAD is a Hive Fleet Detachment from the Shield of Baal Leviathan supplement.

Then it is not a CAD as you stated.

Wraiths, for some reason, got a HUGE boost in the new dex. Going to T5 and whip coils making them I5 is awesome sauce. The problem I've found with the destroyer cult and the tomb blades is that, for the most part, they are like bringing a knife to a gun fight. When you go to a tournament you're going to see a preponderance of 2+ armor. Either with termies, dreadknights, riptides, etc. Gauss is great but you need to be able to put out a huge amount of it to start causing wounds on 2+ armor. Now heavy destroyers are another story. Whereas wraiths can catch most things and kill them - or tar pit them.

Yeah Wraiths got a nerf not a boost in the new codex.

Now I know why you're on ignore.

WTF man, the new Wraiths are immensely better than the old ones and everybody agrees on that.

36 psychic dice and jetbikes galore? :\
As an ork player, I hope a piano gets dropped on your friends carry case.

Yeah, sorry there - take it from a life long wraith player. Lascannons, meltas and tac squads with nothing more than bolters were the bane of my wraiths existence. I'd either get one-shotted or pelted with S4 shots. Although I will agree that Tau in general is just a pain in the but for wraiths - even fire warriors are a pain in the butt.

At first I thought I'd never see the destroyer lord leading the charge ever again I had one in my destroyer cult but let him at least start with the wraiths and as it turned out a unit of GK termies DSd right next to the wraiths and took some bolter shots which did nothing followed by the wraiths+DL chewing through them in a turn. But if they needed to cross the board that would be a problem.

This is why I am happy my area has detachment limits. You can use these lists at the cost of your wallet and soul.

morgoth wrote:
WTF man, the new Wraiths are immensely better than the old ones and everybody agrees on that.

On any of these lists, people are going to have to buy models they wouldn't normally field. He wants to spend money on that many Wraiths, go ahead, but he'd be better off buying something else. He'd be wasting his money. Wraiths just aren't worth it. They got a buff for a reason, and that is because they needed it. Still given the choice of the current ones, or the last edition ones, I'd run the last edition ones in a heartbeat. They didn't change enough to warrant spamming them. This isn't purely because of them, it's just that there are better options now.

I kind of agree with what Lord Commissar said. It's good to have limits. What that limit actually is, is up to the TO. He might not care that everyone has a good time. I would use this event to run multiple CADs to field a greater variety of stuff rather than purchase the same copy, multiple times. For example, I'd run the 2 units of Wraiths, 2 Units of Tomb Blades, and 3 Units of Scarabs because I own them. Using the Multiple CAD rules in this fashion you might as well just run an Unbound event.

From the Store perspective, someone is going to have the money to buy one of the spam lists, so it's a win for them. I'd have a hard time buying more than a single CAD worth of any unit.

Now I know why you're on ignore.

WTF man, the new Wraiths are immensely better than the old ones and everybody agrees on that

No one that ran or understood how to run Wraiths competitively agrees. Rather than just insulting have you any actual points as to why a unit that got worse damage output and at best a wash in survivability got immensely better?

I personally don't see an issue with allowing unbound and if there are good players turning up I doubt a pure spam list will win.

To be honest I'd run my AstraDar (double CAD) against any of these spam lists. Yes it has spam in it (6 Wyverns at this point level also 6 Jet bike units) but not 1 Dimensional spamming of 1 unit or even 1 codex, just a list designed to achieve every Maelstrom objective every turn. As long as the Tourney is running Maelstrom it should be fairly balanced and I'd expect all 3 posted lists to struggle a bit at that.

Start with the mission objectives and build a list to do that and you'll probably do better than spamming a perceived power house unit. Look at LVO the Lictor shame list probably doesn't change how it works if allowed more CADs. He probably switches the Lictors over to the assassination brood but that is about it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Now I know why you're on ignore.

WTF man, the new Wraiths are immensely better than the old ones and everybody agrees on that

No one that ran or understood how to run Wraiths competitively agrees. Rather than just insulting have you any actual points as to why a unit that got worse damage output and at best a wash in survivability got immensely better?

I personally don't see an issue with allowing unbound and if there are good players turning up I doubt a pure spam list will win.

To be honest I'd run my AstraDar (double CAD) against any of these spam lists. Yes it has spam in it (6 Wyverns at this point level also 6 Jet bike units) but not 1 Dimensional spamming of 1 unit or even 1 codex, just a list designed to achieve every Maelstrom objective every turn. As long as the Tourney is running Maelstrom it should be fairly balanced and I'd expect all 3 posted lists to struggle a bit at that.

Start with the mission objectives and build a list to do that and you'll probably do better than spamming a perceived power house unit. Look at LVO the Lictor shame list probably doesn't change how it works if allowed more CADs. He probably switches the Lictors over to the assassination brood but that is about it.

You're really underestimating T5 way too much, it has a huge effect on S4 and even S5 spam. That unit got a 30% boost in survivability against most of its threats, the exact same damage output per point or better and even a formation that can potentially give it RP for an acceptable cost, given you find a use and a tactic for it.

I totally agree with you on unbound and pure spam, no unit in the game seems good enough to win by pure spam at this point, even Flyrants would struggle against some and they're pretty much the best candidate.

The Lictorshame list from LVO is a prime example of spamming powerhouse units though.
The only thing that could be deemed less of a power house is the Lictors. But they're totally not bad to begin with, stealth, infiltrate, deep strike, 50 points. Deep Strike MSU for 50 point, how is that bad ?

Everything else is perfectly standard powerhouse, Flyrants, Mawlocs, cheap deep striking troops (troop tax ? what do you mean ?).



One thing that could prove perfectly unbeatable in maelstrom unbound though is pod spam.

You could literally field 20 pods and a few flyrants and it would be really hard to deal with.

You're really underestimating T5 way too much, it has a huge effect on S4 and even S5 spam. That unit got a 30% boost in survivability against most of its threats, the exact same damage output per point or better and even a formation that can potentially give it RP for an acceptable cost, given you find a use and a tactic for it.

Maths on that vs say 20 bs4 S4 shots:

Now 13.33 hits 4.44 wounds 1.48 unsaved wounds
Then 13.33 hits 6.67 wounds 1.11 unsaved wounds.

Yes RPs shifts that into favour of now assuming your opponent hasn't just killed the 1 Spyder that gives it... Not seeing the massive boost yet. You're also ignoring the vulnerability to ID and reduced damage output due to lack of PE and Ap1 attacks.

I totally agree with you on unbound and pure spam, no unit in the game seems good enough to win by pure spam at this point, even Flyrants would struggle against some and they're pretty much the best candidate.

The Lictorshame list from LVO is a prime example of spamming powerhouse units though.
The only thing that could be deemed less of a power house is the Lictors. But they're totally not bad to begin with, stealth, infiltrate, deep strike, 50 points. Deep Strike MSU for 50 point, how is that bad ?

Everything else is perfectly standard powerhouse, Flyrants, Mawlocs, cheap deep striking troops (troop tax ? what do you mean ?).



One thing that could prove perfectly unbeatable in maelstrom unbound though is pod spam.

You could literally field 20 pods and a few flyrants and it would be really hard to deal with.

I think we're actually in total agreement here I just wasn't being clear. I'm not saying you wouldn't spam power house unitS I'm saying you wouldn't spam a power house unit.

The unbound pod list loses to an ObSec pod list or jetbike list as it just can't score VPs well enough. Though no one is tabling 20 pods and I'm guessing 4-5 Flyrants. At 1850 I've written a battle forged BA list with 19 pods (9 of which carry Dreads).

 FlingitNow wrote:

You're really underestimating T5 way too much, it has a huge effect on S4 and even S5 spam. That unit got a 30% boost in survivability against most of its threats, the exact same damage output per point or better and even a formation that can potentially give it RP for an acceptable cost, given you find a use and a tactic for it.

Maths on that vs say 20 bs4 S4 shots:

Now 13.33 hits 4.44 wounds 1.48 unsaved wounds
Then 13.33 hits 6.67 wounds 1.11 unsaved wounds.

Yes RPs shifts that into favour of now assuming your opponent hasn't just killed the 1 Spyder that gives it... Not seeing the massive boost yet. You're also ignoring the vulnerability to ID and reduced damage output due to lack of PE and Ap1 attacks.

What those maths say is that you take 33% less wounds, or that you are 50% harder to kill. That is a huge boost, and it's the reason we use Holo Fields on Wave Serpents, even though there are more Wave Serpents than Units of Wraith in most lists.

RPs as I said depends on having a tactic to handle it, and maybe having the enemy focus on a Spyder that you would somehow position to your advantage could very well make it interesting for you that they target it. After all they're not shooting at the Wraiths when they do that.

On top of that, Wraiths are now a lot less vulnerable to ID than they were before, and that without even spending a point on a D-lord.

I think the big issue is that you're looking at Wraiths from codex v5 and saying Wraiths from codex v7 can't be used the same. No they can't, but point for point, the new Wraiths are vastly better.

Yeah 1.48 is a bigger number than 1.11 so how is taking more unsaved wounds making you more survivable?

How is being ID'd by S10 & weapons with the ID rule less vulnerable that only being ID'd by weapons with the ID rule?

I'm looking at V5 codex and what made them competitive. I'm seeing no improvements over that and lots of nerfs. They are not a terrible unit, but purely a Tarpit unit that is a threat to tanks in combat.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah 1.48 is a bigger number than 1.11 so how is taking more unsaved wounds making you more survivable?

How is being ID'd by S10 & weapons with the ID rule less vulnerable that only being ID'd by weapons with the ID rule?

I'm looking at V5 codex and what made them competitive. I'm seeing no improvements over that and lots of nerfs. They are not a terrible unit, but purely a Tarpit unit that is a threat to tanks in combat.

Actually, old Wraiths would take 50% more damage from S4 and 33% more damage from S5.


It's because you're not bringing it down to points costs, and comparing the ideal situation of the D-lord tanking everything just when you want it, and not when you don't.
The main reason you wanted protection from ID before is that just about anything (S8-9-10) could ID your Wraiths.
Right now, you don't need a D lord. You can field 3x 6 Wraiths with or without coils it's almost the same price, you're immune to most ID especially at range and you don't need a D-lord.

Put that back into v5, and you could only field 2x6 Wraiths with 2x D-lord because of slots.

Now you can run 3x6 Wraiths without even needing an HQ slots, it costs less, is much more resilient, etc.
You're only seeing it as a nerf because you want to play v5-style in v6.

They all look like typical tournament spam lists.

Nothing against you, just the idea that to win I need 18 wraiths. Woo competative play totaly does no harm to the game

morgoth wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah 1.48 is a bigger number than 1.11 so how is taking more unsaved wounds making you more survivable?

How is being ID'd by S10 & weapons with the ID rule less vulnerable that only being ID'd by weapons with the ID rule?

I'm looking at V5 codex and what made them competitive. I'm seeing no improvements over that and lots of nerfs. They are not a terrible unit, but purely a Tarpit unit that is a threat to tanks in combat.

Actually, old Wraiths would take 50% more damage from S4 and 33% more damage from S5.


It's because you're not bringing it down to points costs, and comparing the ideal situation of the D-lord tanking everything just when you want it, and not when you don't.
The main reason you wanted protection from ID before is that just about anything (S8-9-10) could ID your Wraiths.
Right now, you don't need a D lord. You can field 3x 6 Wraiths with or without coils it's almost the same price, you're immune to most ID especially at range and you don't need a D-lord.

Put that back into v5, and you could only field 2x6 Wraiths with 2x D-lord because of slots.

Now you can run 3x6 Wraiths without even needing an HQ slots, it costs less, is much more resilient, etc.
You're only seeing it as a nerf because you want to play v5-style in v6.

Yes if you ignore what made Wraiths competitive then the new wraiths are better. However the Dlord wasn't just there to tank ID and small arms fire (which both largely make the new buff entirely non-existent) he was primarily there for increased damage output. 5 Wraiths at 215 points kill 3.88 marines on the charge, let that sink in for a second. A 10 man tactical squad (at 140 points) probably ties up that Wraith squad for most if not all the game. With a Dlord they'd be killing 7.56 so nearly doubling the damage output. That is a MASSIVE nerf no matter how you want to spin it.

Wraiths are still a very viable option, but as MSU board control units that can tarpit scary units and pull apart tanks in combat. They are not a mainline combat unit anymore as they simply don't do enough damage to warrant the expenditure.

I don't see why you can't use a Dlord anymore if you think it's so important to the success of your unit.

So where's your massive nerf exactly ?

Dlord can't keep up. Put him in the unit and it loses its speed which again denies it its use. The inability for the Dlord to lead the unit has denied the unit its use as a mainline combat unit. The boost in T has given them a different purpose as a fast tarpit for board control, in this role there is never a need to have more than 3 in a unit. However you will also not spam them without real damage dealers elsewhere in the list.

They have a role but they have been needed as they are no longer a mainline assault deathstar type unit.