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Give the railgun a networked markerlight and odanance, then nerf missilesides. This way you get a small offensive buff, another weapon to lose if you get weapon destroyed, and a markerlight to either give yourself a buff or spread it around. As for the last bit, missilesides are taken not because other options are bad, but because they are so strong. Trust me, as a Grey knights and tyranids player I would kill for the railgun as is.


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Alternatively, let the railgun fire regardless of los or cover at the cost of 1-2 marker tokens on the target. this represents its ability to fire right through terrain so long as the target location is known.

Hey look sgtpozy, a Xenos 'buff me thread'! Clearly this means all Xenos players want their codices buffed, right?

As for th actual thread, the large rail guns on a hammerhead should have an extra special rule vs super heavy vehicles. Maybe an automatic extra d3 hullpoints vs super heavies?

Alternatively, you could simply drop the points cost of a hammerhead. Of course, having a cheap av13 skimmer that can score (obsec or not) is the elders thing!

Problem for rail guns is that deep strike meltas and missile sides exist, making them redundant. Like shooting terminators in the wake of sternguard, or dev cents. They aren't the only answer to enemy armor at long range anymore, and they aren't nearly efficient enough for their cost.

How to fix rail weapons:

Broadside railgun goes back to STR 10 AP 1 like it used to be.

Hammerhead railgun is STR D AP 1.

Manta/Tigershark railguns are STR D AP 1, and when firing without skyfire you draw an infinite-length line and continue to hit units until you roll a 1 on the destroyer table.

The obvious answer is to powercreep everything.

Introduce AV20, increase S scale from 1-10 + D to 1-20 + D.

Every weapon is at least a small blast.

Every weapon rolls at least 1 die per 5 points

Every Vehicle is Fast and can flat out and shoot and deepstrike

 chrisrawr wrote:
The obvious answer is to powercreep everything.

Introduce AV20, increase S scale from 1-10 + D to 1-20 + D.

Every weapon is at least a small blast.

Every weapon rolls at least 1 die per 5 points

Every Vehicle is Fast and can flat out and shoot and deepstrike

But leave termies as is.

 koooaei wrote:

 chrisrawr wrote:
The obvious answer is to powercreep everything.

Introduce AV20, increase S scale from 1-10 + D to 1-20 + D.

Every weapon is at least a small blast.

Every weapon rolls at least 1 die per 5 points

Every Vehicle is Fast and can flat out and shoot and deepstrike

But leave termies as is.

2+ save marine? How can you improve it? Would be unbalanced!

I've never understood the whole "infinite line" idea with Railguns. Have you seen what happens when a Railgun slug hits its target? The slug more or less disintegrates from the impact, if anything blast seems more fitting.

It's based on this one story (the only story that really talks about the damage rail-gun rounds do) that had a railgun rounds piercing completely through a vehicle with such speed that is actually sucked the the crew and anything else that wasn't nailed down through the exist hole, leaving a long gory splatter on the ground.

 koooaei wrote:

 chrisrawr wrote:
The obvious answer is to powercreep everything.

Introduce AV20, increase S scale from 1-10 + D to 1-20 + D.

Every weapon is at least a small blast.

Every weapon rolls at least 1 die per 5 points

Every Vehicle is Fast and can flat out and shoot and deepstrike

But leave termies as is.

I'm glad someone in this thread is speaking sense.

We must have some balance.

How to fix rail cannons:
Cut price in half
Make them D weapons
Put them on transports
Blast version also D weapon
Get 4+ for damage results
Ignor cover

Now im off to the "how to fix Wraith Knights thread"

Not that Eldar aren't OP, but their cheap AV13 is 2500 points. Not cheap. Nothing else they have is over av12, and many of their superheavies are av11.

Don't want to derail the thread, just wanted to clear up a factual inaccuracy. Agree with the sentiment expressed, though.

On topic, just how much of a buff do people think the Railhead, Rail sides, and Rail Rifles really need?

Rail rifles are fine.
With broadsides, just decrease the base broadside (or make the HRRs back to being just rail guns), and make the HYMP cost more.
With the hammerhead, maybe give it a "rail cannon" (as opposed to the rail gun it has now) that is ordnance, and possibly and extra +1 on the damage table.


Some re-pricing might need to be looked at though.

How would this look:
Railhead: Ordinance 1 S10 AP1
HRR broadsides: ordinance 1 S9 AP1
Rail Rifle Pathfinders: Ordinance 1 S6 AP1 Precision

HRR seems like it should be possible to pen AV14, but not as likely as a Railgun.
Rail Rifle Pathfinders seem like 'anti-material rifles', that can pierce a tank, or take an individual's head off. With its torso being turned to too.

Another thought:
Instead of direct-fire, scatter the impact 2d6 like a blast, then draw a 12" line directly away from the model. Models in that line are hit as per Beam rules.


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(Not very knowledgeable about Tau yet. Still new to it.)

1 shot ordinance S 10 AP 1 is still less than a 33% of killing an enemy tank. This weapon needs a better chance than that. It's like modern armor.

It needs not to do more damage. On a pen even if it's just 33% kill, it's at least a likely cripple. Even on 1 it's a stun.

It needs to pen more often. Especially the HRR.
Give all rail weapons +2 to pen rolls. that way a hit will most likely pen, and do some damage.

 BoomWolf wrote:
It needs not to do more damage. On a pen even if it's just 33% kill, it's at least a likely cripple. Even on 1 it's a stun.

It needs to pen more often. Especially the HRR.
Give all rail weapons +2 to pen rolls. that way a hit will most likely pen, and do some damage.

I agree that S8 does not penetrate often enough.

The Railhead has only a 50% chance of crippling an enemy vehicle. Stun, shaken, and weapon destroyed have minimal effects. That's absurdly low for what the weapon is. The 7th edition vehicle table has really devalued AP 1/2 hits and now the preferred method of killing vehicles is now HP scrubbing. That's not acceptable for the rail head. Remember that this thing's competition are the missile sides. There are not many suggested upgrades on this thread that would make me pick a railhead over the missile sides. The potential to one shot Imperial Knights is an ability that would justify the rail head over missile sides. "Some damage" doesn't cut it with missile sides in the same slot. It needs to be horrific damage.

Truth be told, I'd probably give the railhead beast hunter as well. You are shooting the monster with a weapon whose barrel as long as the monster. Yeah, it's gonna one shot it.

S10AP1, 72" single shot, is obviously a specialist AV14 hunter on the same level as a Vanquisher. It should be going after very expensive targets like Land Raiders -- 2 Hammerheads vs 1 MM LR seems pretty fairly costed.

S8AP1, 60" single shot, is less of a dedicated anti-armour profile but its advantage is obviously range and not volume of fire. Knights are going to counter this advantage hard since they are so fast, and you're losing that range advantage. Then again, it seems like a decent weapon against AV10-12 flyers with the range and possible Skyfire buffs.

S6AP1, 30" rapid-fire, is pretty awesome for an infantry gun. Beware TEQs, MCs, and light vehicles! Great firepower but on a fragile infantry platform, so you can't just let them get shot to hell.

The bigger Railguns are specialist weapons, it's important to consider what they're good at. They are best used at extreme ranges (60"+) and have very specific targets they're good against to make their points back (leveraging that AP1). Knights close distance fast and are less vulnerable at range due to the Invul save. Rhinos are cheap MSU, it's better to just wreck them with high-volume, cheap S7 AP- fire. MCs don't give that 'explodes' AP1 bonus.

Most of the problem is probably the meta, you don't have the optimal ranges and targets the gun is built towards.

"S10AP1, 72" single shot, is obviously a specialist AV14 hunter on the same level as a Vanquisher. It should be going after very expensive targets like Land Raiders -- 2 Hammerheads vs 1 MM LR seems pretty fairly costed. "

But is has a terrible chance of taking out AV 14.

Yep, obviously, a 135 pt tank should easilly take out 5-6 landraiders per game.

 koooaei wrote:
Yep, obviously, a 135 pt tank should easilly take out 5-6 landraiders per game.

I'd obviously charge more for the tank, but it should be a rock hard counter to the land raider, and as it is, fusion suits are much, much better.

It's currently averaging less than one Land Raider, which is absurd given its intended role.

I'm a Tau player and I disagree that Hammerheads should be hard counters to all vehicles. Meltaguns (fusion blasters) should be the ultimate tank killing weapon because they usually involve more risk - deep striking near a target or at the very least, getting close.

I would love for my Hammerheads to be slightly more competitive, but NO weapon should have a significant chance to pop a Land Raider from 70" away. Sure, some super-heavies can do that, but they don't cost under 150 points (and a lot of people hate those things anyway).

I think a re-roll on the pen table OR on the damage table would be pretty awesome - you have to pick before you roll to hit. Better chance to penetrate that Land Raider and a better chance to actually destroy that Rhino.

As for the Broadsides, just change their HRR to rapid fire. The ability to move and fire, paired with an extra shot within 30" would make them 100% viable...while still keeping Missilesides as a decent option.

Bharring wrote:
Not that Eldar aren't OP, but their cheap AV13 is 2500 points. Not cheap. Nothing else they have is over av12, and many of their superheavies are av11.

Don't want to derail the thread, just wanted to clear up a factual inaccuracy. Agree with the sentiment expressed, though.

On topic, just how much of a buff do people think the Railhead, Rail sides, and Rail Rifles really need?

Sorry but I was being sarcastic. Just because I find it funny that Tau players what a weapon that cost,, what like 50pnts im guessing, to nearly guarantee kill a land Raider or equivalent every turn, not even counting other buffs you get from marker drones. It would be the only long range weapon to do that from 72 inches away. Then on top of that have a ordnance weapon to blow away anything else.

As for eldar, there is no way the should have or need armor over 12, unless they want to give up jinking, the crazy amount of weapons it gets, and ignoring pens on a 2+

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Not that Eldar aren't OP, but their cheap AV13 is 2500 points. Not cheap. Nothing else they have is over av12, and many of their superheavies are av11.

Don't want to derail the thread, just wanted to clear up a factual inaccuracy. Agree with the sentiment expressed, though.

On topic, just how much of a buff do people think the Railhead, Rail sides, and Rail Rifles really need?

Sorry but I was being sarcastic. Just because I find it funny that Tau players what a weapon that cost,, what like 50pnts im guessing, to nearly guarantee kill a land Raider or equivalent every turn, not even counting other buffs you get from marker drones. It would be the only long range weapon to do that from 72 inches away. Then on top of that have a ordnance weapon to blow away anything else.

As for eldar, there is no way the should have or need armor over 12, unless they want to give up jinking, the crazy amount of weapons it gets, and ignoring pens on a 2+

Whoa, you're expecting Tau players to actually use markerlights? Get outta here.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I've never understood the whole "infinite line" idea with Railguns. Have you seen what happens when a Railgun slug hits its target? The slug more or less disintegrates from the impact, if anything blast seems more fitting.

Excuse me? The Blitzer Railgun PROTOTYPE using PROTOTYPE ammunition, which is neither aerodynamic nor shaped to penetrate, has shown video tests of it going through multiple plates of reinforced concrete and remaining intact.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

I would like to see it do something similar to the XV107,

I.E. "Against units with Bulky roll 2 attacks, Monstrous and Vehicle roll 3 attacks S10"

But in general, the Hammerhead doesn't really fit in this edition as-is; too squishy to avoid focus, not fast enough to run away from close combats, not reliable enough to do its own job, competes in slot for other things.

I'd definitely like to see Hammerhead Formations that rectify the issues it has. I'm not saying "zomg it should pop a tank every turn", but it should do SOMETHING every turn, especially with Markerlight Support.


Every other "good" unit in Tau is "good" because it does one thing with surgical precision and consistency, or is just plain undercosted and ridiculously powerful given the rest of the army's composition (riptiiiiides).

Broadsides are taken for their consistency through numerical superiority. Fire Warriors with a couple markerlights can whipe similarly costed unit off the map from an excellent range. Kroot are 6 point bolters, or 7 point Kabalite Warrior wanna-be's.

Crisis Suits perform any role you don't currently have filled. Pathfinders and Tetras bring Markerlights in whatever form you want. Even the skies bend under the Barracuda and the Skyray, though they do little else of note.

So where do you find room for the Tau Railhead?

-> Consistent penetration

200 Points. BS4. 2 Networked Markerlights. Rear Armour 11. Heavy.

Weapon: S10, AP1, Heavy 1. 72" Range. Rail

Rail: Regardless of the Armour Penetration Roll, a hit from this weapon is always Penetrating. When you roll on the Vehicle Damage Table, add or subtract the difference between the Armour Penetration Roll result and the Armour Value of the vehicle facing fired at.

If this would result in less than a 1, the hit only glances.


I.E. Shooting a Rhino - you roll a 3 for Armour Penetration, giving you 13. 13 - Av 11 is 2, giving you an additional +2 on your penetration roll.


Shooting a Land Raider - you roll a 3 for Armour Penetration, giving you a 13. 13 - AV 14 is -1, giving you a -1 on your penetration roll.

Ferros wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I've never understood the whole "infinite line" idea with Railguns. Have you seen what happens when a Railgun slug hits its target? The slug more or less disintegrates from the impact, if anything blast seems more fitting.

Excuse me? The Blitzer Railgun PROTOTYPE using PROTOTYPE ammunition, which is neither aerodynamic nor shaped to penetrate, has shown video tests of it going through multiple plates of reinforced concrete and remaining intact.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

In which case it is overpenetrating the target and not actually imparting its energy into whatever is supposed to be destroyed, in which case the weapon shouldn't be S10 anymore.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ferros wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I've never understood the whole "infinite line" idea with Railguns. Have you seen what happens when a Railgun slug hits its target? The slug more or less disintegrates from the impact, if anything blast seems more fitting.

Excuse me? The Blitzer Railgun PROTOTYPE using PROTOTYPE ammunition, which is neither aerodynamic nor shaped to penetrate, has shown video tests of it going through multiple plates of reinforced concrete and remaining intact.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

In which case it is overpenetrating the target and not actually imparting its energy into whatever is supposed to be destroyed, in which case the weapon shouldn't be S10 anymore.

IIRC the damage comes from the fact that everything inside gets superheated and scrambled from the overpressure and resulting vacuum of entry and exit. Just like with modern tankbuster rounds; Relatively little structural damage, but everyone inside is dead. It's not hard to kill humans with a little temperature and pressure change

 chrisrawr wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ferros wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I've never understood the whole "infinite line" idea with Railguns. Have you seen what happens when a Railgun slug hits its target? The slug more or less disintegrates from the impact, if anything blast seems more fitting.

Excuse me? The Blitzer Railgun PROTOTYPE using PROTOTYPE ammunition, which is neither aerodynamic nor shaped to penetrate, has shown video tests of it going through multiple plates of reinforced concrete and remaining intact.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

In which case it is overpenetrating the target and not actually imparting its energy into whatever is supposed to be destroyed, in which case the weapon shouldn't be S10 anymore.

IIRC the damage comes from the fact that everything inside gets superheated and scrambled from the overpressure and resulting vacuum of entry and exit. Just like with modern tankbuster rounds; Relatively little structural damage, but everyone inside is dead. It's not hard to kill humans with a little temperature and pressure change

Too bad that not all vehicles in the galaxy are crewed by humans. I don't think that a Space Marine in his power armor would mind a little wind and heat from the passing round, or that a daemon engine would even care. This would be also hard to pull off against Eldar vehicles (as they have cockpits) and Dark Eldar vehicles (as their crew compartments are open).

Pretty sure the damage comes from an object travelling at Mach 7+ transferring all it's energy to the intended target, hence why overpenetration is bad. Transferring that much energy into metal more or less makes it combust, and the resulting explosion is what creates the over pressure.

For what it's worth, in the Damnation Crusade Venerable brother Tankred takes repeated Railgun shots to the Sarcophagus and isn't utterly obliterated, so the power of the weapons, as always, vary within the fluff.

It's a bit like giant anti-material rifle/anti-tank rifle. It can pass through and not do too much damage, but have it hit anything like an engine or ammuntion, and that tank goes boom. Imagine this passing through the ammunition stores of a leman russ. With all those battle cannon shells going off, there wouldn't be any tank left.