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I think any standard infantry having "special" guns is a slippery slope.

Really, except maybe Splinter Rifles, I think any standard "assault rifle" could, and should, be represented by a combination of S, AP and weapon type.

If we take the Bolter as a base line (and there's nothing inherently wrong with a bolter, it just pales in comparison to all the other options about) then variations on that can probably decently represent most line infantry weapons.

Historically, Catapults have been superior to Bolters, but would anyone find issue with 24", S4, Ap4, Assault 2, costed appropriately? (Eldar players try and be objective!)

I'd rather 12"/18" as now. Assuming its pointed right.

Could lose bladestorm. But would need some other compensation.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So I die twice as fast as Marines to boltgun wounds, *and* Marines get the harder-hitting gun? Wtf?

I'm not arguing that the Boltgun is better than the Avenger Shuriken Catapult.

(That said, boltgun + battle focus vs 18" range means I get a *lot* of rounds of shooting before Marines ever get in range. So it wouldn't be a complete loss).

I'm arguing that, if the DA gun were outright worse, DAs would be outright worse than Marines. They pay a lot of points for that gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
T3 -> T4 is huge
4+ -> 3+ is huge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lobukia,
In what situations should Marines be able to beat DAs? In what situations, if any, should DAs be able to beat Marines?

You are wrong t3 compared to t4 is quite insignificant when you compare the cost of t4 to t3. If i could take all my marines for less points at t3 I would, In a heartbeat.

So you're saying you'd play Sisters? A Battle Sister is -1T/S/WS/I for -2pts.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So I die twice as fast as Marines to boltgun wounds, *and* Marines get the harder-hitting gun? Wtf?

I'm not arguing that the Boltgun is better than the Avenger Shuriken Catapult.

(That said, boltgun + battle focus vs 18" range means I get a *lot* of rounds of shooting before Marines ever get in range. So it wouldn't be a complete loss).

I'm arguing that, if the DA gun were outright worse, DAs would be outright worse than Marines. They pay a lot of points for that gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
T3 -> T4 is huge
4+ -> 3+ is huge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lobukia,
In what situations should Marines be able to beat DAs? In what situations, if any, should DAs be able to beat Marines?

You are wrong t3 compared to t4 is quite insignificant when you compare the cost of t4 to t3. If i could take all my marines for less points at t3 I would, In a heartbeat.

So you're saying you'd play Sisters? A Battle Sister is -1T/S/WS/I for -2pts.

Yeah sisters all much better than tactical marines - hands down better options. Let me take sister squads instead of tacs - I'd love that.

See, it's the whole, "Bladestorm is yet another thing you have to go through when facing eldar," that makes me quirk an eyebrow. We all know that serpents and some other eldar stuff needs to be toned down. I'm just perplexed that so many people think that bladestorm is one of those things.

When people say it's "yet another thing," that they have to deal with, and when they say, "Well, it won't really matter 'cause serpents," it makes me wonder if what they mean is, "Serpents are too good by themselves, therefore I'm frustrated with everything int he eldar book"

Is bladestorm itself, not serpents, not scatter lasers, but bladestorm itself actually causing people huge problems? I realize that nothing in a codex "exists in a vacuum," but my question is whether it's a problem in and of itself. When people say, "Well, it's a problem because you also have serpents and scatter lasers (and so on) to deal with, bladestorm is ridiculous!" From this, it sounds like bladestorm isn't really the issue. It sounds like the issue is the genuinely OP stuff that kills enough of your army for pretty much anything to be a threat to the remainder.

Those five man squads of avengers that your opponent is using to spam serpents are only doing about 1 rend each time they shoot, and they very possibly aren't inflicting any other wounds on top of that rend.

So much hate? I play eldar and I've never had a single person complain about bladestorm. They're too busy complaining about serpents and WK. There are definitely OP things in that codex, bladestorm isn't one of them.

My own complaint about bladestorm as an Eldar player is that it makes it psychologically difficult to justify taking, say, Dark Reapers or Shining Spears. Why should I spend points taking anti-MEQ specialists when I can just mass shuriken fire on them instead? It also further marginalizes Howling Banshees, but Howling Banshees are so worthless already that seeing them further marginalized is more laughable than anything else.

I want to play the "army of specialists" with dozens of moving parts all singing in perfect harmony, working together to destroy my enemies. In practice, though, it's way easier and more cost-effective just to mass shuriken weaponry for every nonvehicle threat and fill in with anti-tank as necessary.

 Marsyas wrote:
My own complaint about bladestorm as an Eldar player is that it makes it psychologically difficult to justify taking, say, Dark Reapers or Shining Spears. Why should I spend points taking anti-MEQ specialists when I can just mass shuriken fire on them instead? It also further marginalizes Howling Banshees, but Howling Banshees are so worthless already that seeing them further marginalized is more laughable than anything else.

I want to play the "army of specialists" with dozens of moving parts all singing in perfect harmony, working together to destroy my enemies. In practice, though, it's way easier and more cost-effective just to mass shuriken weaponry for every nonvehicle threat and fill in with anti-tank as necessary.

I'm with you there - why would you take an AP 3 weapon when your basic weapon has AP2 potential and is more effective for the cost. That about sums this debate up doesn't it? Gardians are more effective against meq than reapers?

Martel732 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Autocannon vs Scatter Laser. +1 S, +12", and AP4 vs twice the shots at AP6. Seems fair. "

Not even remotely fair. But please continue. For even more lulz, compare it to the assault cannon. SL are one of the biggest cheeses in the game. They have been since 5th at least.

Don't Scatter Lasers also cause shots at the same target to be twin linked after? Or is that something else?

Yes, they do that too. They are total BS.

As for bladestorm itself, I guess it's not THAT bad, it's just a kick in the jimmies after all the other Eldar cheese you have to wade through to get to close range against them. CSM was forced to move beyond Codex:helldrake, but Eldar are still in that Codex: Waveserpent zone.

I think you have the Scatter Laser rules wrong... It allows any model with the Scatter Laser to reroll any subsequent weapons that that same model fires. The Laser Lock is wasted on models with only Scatter Lasers as weapons. It's very useful, but it's definitely not as powerful as what you guys have stated above.

As for Bladestorm.. The weapons that have it are typically short-ranged.

130 points of avengers will kill something like 4 marines. 120 points of reapers will kill something like 4 marines, but they'll do it from across the board with thicker armor while also having the option of shooting krak missile equivalents into vehicles, MCs, etc. They also ignore jink. They have fewer bodies, so they're more susceptible to return fire, but their reach helps mitigate this against some armies.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So you're saying you'd play Sisters? A Battle Sister is -1T/S/WS/I for -2pts.

Yeah sisters all much better than tactical marines - hands down better options. Let me take sister squads instead of tacs - I'd love that.

I hope this is sarcasm and not hyperbole that's gotten so over the top that it no longer realizes it's hyperbole.

Because that would be sad.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So I die twice as fast as Marines to boltgun wounds, *and* Marines get the harder-hitting gun? Wtf?

I'm not arguing that the Boltgun is better than the Avenger Shuriken Catapult.

(That said, boltgun + battle focus vs 18" range means I get a *lot* of rounds of shooting before Marines ever get in range. So it wouldn't be a complete loss).

I'm arguing that, if the DA gun were outright worse, DAs would be outright worse than Marines. They pay a lot of points for that gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
T3 -> T4 is huge
4+ -> 3+ is huge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lobukia,
In what situations should Marines be able to beat DAs? In what situations, if any, should DAs be able to beat Marines?

You are wrong t3 compared to t4 is quite insignificant when you compare the cost of t4 to t3. If i could take all my marines for less points at t3 I would, In a heartbeat.

So you're saying you'd play Sisters? A Battle Sister is -1T/S/WS/I for -2pts.

Yeah sisters all much better than tactical marines - hands down better options. Let me take sister squads instead of tacs - I'd love that.

Funny, because my opinion is that the points cost different represents a lot of BIG buffs between the two units. I mean those two points over my Battle Sisters gets you:
+1 WS
+1 S
+1 T
+1 I
+Combat Squads
+ATSKNF
+Chapter Tactics (which you can probably call a flat trade for Acts of Faith, but only just barely since Chapter Tactics get more uses)

That's a marked increase for a very small increase. The only advantage Sisters get is an extra T3 body on the table for every 6 Marines you take. And I mean the extra bodies help, but when your entire army is a 24" range army (sans Exorcists or FW Avengers) then you tend to lose those extra bodies pretty quickly.

But maybe that's just a "the grass is greener" thing cropping up.

Wyldhunt wrote:
130 points of avengers will kill something like 4 marines. 120 points of reapers will kill something like 4 marines, but they'll do it from across the board with thicker armor while also having the option of shooting krak missile equivalents into vehicles, MCs, etc. They also ignore jink. They have fewer bodies, so they're more susceptible to return fire, but their reach helps mitigate this against some armies.

While the avengers take up troop slots

Its honestly a psychological thing.
You expect something like Reapers to kill things since thats what they are bought for.

Having a troop choice being able to manhandle terminators while costing the same as other troops would sour anyone's apples.

Doesnt hurt that they also unlock wavesnakes.

"+1 WS
+1 S
+1 T
+1 I
+Combat Squads
+ATSKNF
+Chapter Tactics (which you can probably call a flat trade for Acts of Faith, but only just barely since Chapter Tactics get more uses) "

Mostly irrelevant against Eldar scatterlasers. Maybe IH chapter tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So you're saying you'd play Sisters? A Battle Sister is -1T/S/WS/I for -2pts.

Yeah sisters all much better than tactical marines - hands down better options. Let me take sister squads instead of tacs - I'd love that.

I hope this is sarcasm and not hyperbole that's gotten so over the top that it no longer realizes it's hyperbole.

Because that would be sad.

It's a consequence of firepower making it so everyone just wants to lose the least points as possible when that IA pie plate comes in. Or your squad takes 23 hits from scatterlasers.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So I die twice as fast as Marines to boltgun wounds, *and* Marines get the harder-hitting gun? Wtf?

I'm not arguing that the Boltgun is better than the Avenger Shuriken Catapult.

(That said, boltgun + battle focus vs 18" range means I get a *lot* of rounds of shooting before Marines ever get in range. So it wouldn't be a complete loss).

I'm arguing that, if the DA gun were outright worse, DAs would be outright worse than Marines. They pay a lot of points for that gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
T3 -> T4 is huge
4+ -> 3+ is huge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lobukia,
In what situations should Marines be able to beat DAs? In what situations, if any, should DAs be able to beat Marines?

You are wrong t3 compared to t4 is quite insignificant when you compare the cost of t4 to t3. If i could take all my marines for less points at t3 I would, In a heartbeat.

So you're saying you'd play Sisters? A Battle Sister is -1T/S/WS/I for -2pts.

Yeah sisters all much better than tactical marines - hands down better options. Let me take sister squads instead of tacs - I'd love that.

I hope this is sarcasm and not hyperbole that's gotten so over the top that it no longer realizes it's hyperbole.

Because that would be pathetic and sad.

What made you think that?

xFinality wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Autocannon vs Scatter Laser. +1 S, +12", and AP4 vs twice the shots at AP6. Seems fair. "

Not even remotely fair. But please continue. For even more lulz, compare it to the assault cannon. SL are one of the biggest cheeses in the game. They have been since 5th at least.

Don't Scatter Lasers also cause shots at the same target to be twin linked after? Or is that something else?

Yes, they do that too. They are total BS.

As for bladestorm itself, I guess it's not THAT bad, it's just a kick in the jimmies after all the other Eldar cheese you have to wade through to get to close range against them. CSM was forced to move beyond Codex:helldrake, but Eldar are still in that Codex: Waveserpent zone.

I think you have the Scatter Laser rules wrong... It allows any model with the Scatter Laser to reroll any subsequent weapons that that same model fires. The Laser Lock is wasted on models with only Scatter Lasers as weapons. It's very useful, but it's definitely not as powerful as what you guys have stated above.

As for Bladestorm.. The weapons that have it are typically short-ranged.

I have them right. Even without laser lock, SL are still total BS compared to other weapons of its type.

because they shoot 36" at str 6 4 shots...handing out twinlinked is just icing on the cake.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a consequence of firepower making it so everyone just wants to lose the least points as possible when that IA pie plate comes in. Or your squad takes 23 hits from scatterlasers.

The marginal benefit is tiny and the marginal cost is huge.

For every 20 marines you have roughly 23 sisters in terms of points. Those marines are harder to kill, more deadly, and better equipped, with better rules and a much wider variety of units backing them up (sisters don't even have an MBT, for feth's sake).

People who claim that the two less points that sisters cost give them some kind of realistic, meaningful advantage are, frankly, fooling themselves.

"Those marines are harder to kill, more deadly, and better equipped, with better rules and a much wider variety of units backing them up (sisters don't even have an MBT, for feth's sake). "

I know it seems like that. But none of that matters against the scatter laser. It doesn't care what rules marines have or don't have. It just makes them dead. From a safe distance, I might add.

Martel732 wrote:
I know it seems like that.

There is no seems. I deny your weasel wording-- it flat out is that way, as an undeniable truth.

Just on equippable weapons alone, Marines have FAR more options to deal with guardians and their transports-- Sisters have exactly three, and all of them require that the sisters be within range of bladestorm.

So what? Take out bladestorm and we have the most useless and inflexible troops in the game. Every troop has its perks, IG have staying power in numbers, Tau are strong long range support, marines have the most versatile troops able to accomplish any job on the board, tyranids and ork eat you if you get in assault range , necrons eat through vehicle like they were butter and Eldar, well if you get in shooting range you get fethed, luckily they are T3, 5+(4+) at best and only 12'(18') range.

The main problem with guardians and avengers is that they get the toughest transport in the game so its very difficult to pop the can open to deal with them before they disembark and unload their payload. But guys, the pseudorending is literally their ONLY redeeming feature.

Martel732 wrote:
"+1 WS
+1 S
+1 T
+1 I
+Combat Squads
+ATSKNF
+Chapter Tactics (which you can probably call a flat trade for Acts of Faith, but only just barely since Chapter Tactics get more uses) "

Mostly irrelevant against Eldar scatterlasers. Maybe IH chapter tactics.

Multi-wound models T3 suffer ID vs Scatterlasers. Also Sisters have no Invul better than a 4+ outside of the Crusader (who can tank wounds okay, but suffers if they get into melee (mostly because of their I3 and 1 attack).

Arnais wrote:
So what? Take out bladestorm and we have the most useless and inflexible troops in the game. Every troop has its perks, IG have staying power in numbers, Tau are strong long range support, marines have the most versatile troops able to accomplish any job on the board, tyranids and ork eat you if you get in assault range , necrons eat through vehicle like they were butter and Eldar, well if you get in shooting range you get fethed, luckily they are T3, 5+(4+) at best and only 12'(18') range.

The main problem with guardians and avengers is that they get the toughest transport in the game so its very difficult to pop the can open to deal with them before they disembark and unload their payload. But guys, the pseudorending is literally their ONLY redeeming feature.

Marines are the least versatile troops able to half-ass any job on the board. One melta per 5 guys is really good at stripping hull points.

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know it seems like that.

There is no seems. I deny your weasel wording-- it flat out is that way, as an undeniable truth.

Just on equippable weapons alone, Marines have FAR more options to deal with guardians and their transports-- Sisters have exactly three, and all of them require that the sisters be within range of bladestorm.

Yeah. Sisters don't have great options - they are a terrible army at that and probably the worst. Their troops aren't that bad though. They are better than tacs because they do the same amount of dmg and are cheaper - their weaker toughness doesn't come into play vs most everything that shoots at them and they have the same save. Doubling out toughness is the only time it really matters - youll hear no argument from me that SM HQ is better than AS HQ.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know it seems like that.

There is no seems. I deny your weasel wording-- it flat out is that way, as an undeniable truth.

Just on equippable weapons alone, Marines have FAR more options to deal with guardians and their transports-- Sisters have exactly three, and all of them require that the sisters be within range of bladestorm.

Yeah. Sisters don't have great options - they are a terrible army at that and probably the worst. Their troops aren't that bad though. They are better than tacs because they do the same amount of dmg and are cheaper - their weaker toughness doesn't come into play vs most everything that shoots at them and they have the same save. Doubling out toughness is the only time it really matters - youll hear no argument from me that SM HQ is better than AS HQ.

I disagree about the shooting. On average Sisters have to roll saves vs more wounds on average, which means on average you'll take wounds more often and take more casualties. the only trade off vs Blade Storm is 1:6 of the 1:6 rending shots will be saved through Shield of Faith.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are better than tacs because they do the same amount of dmg and are cheaper

Marines do more damage, because of superior equipment options, so the premise of your argument is, as it has always been, nonsense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So I die twice as fast as Marines to boltgun wounds, *and* Marines get the harder-hitting gun? Wtf?

I'm not arguing that the Boltgun is better than the Avenger Shuriken Catapult.

(That said, boltgun + battle focus vs 18" range means I get a *lot* of rounds of shooting before Marines ever get in range. So it wouldn't be a complete loss).

I'm arguing that, if the DA gun were outright worse, DAs would be outright worse than Marines. They pay a lot of points for that gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
T3 -> T4 is huge
4+ -> 3+ is huge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lobukia,
In what situations should Marines be able to beat DAs? In what situations, if any, should DAs be able to beat Marines?

You are wrong t3 compared to t4 is quite insignificant when you compare the cost of t4 to t3. If i could take all my marines for less points at t3 I would, In a heartbeat.

Sisters are PA T3 and are cheaper than marines. And are generally considered worse.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marsyas wrote:
My own complaint about bladestorm as an Eldar player is that it makes it psychologically difficult to justify taking, say, Dark Reapers or Shining Spears. Why should I spend points taking anti-MEQ specialists when I can just mass shuriken fire on them instead? It also further marginalizes Howling Banshees, but Howling Banshees are so worthless already that seeing them further marginalized is more laughable than anything else.

I want to play the "army of specialists" with dozens of moving parts all singing in perfect harmony, working together to destroy my enemies. In practice, though, it's way easier and more cost-effective just to mass shuriken weaponry for every nonvehicle threat and fill in with anti-tank as necessary.

I'm with you there - why would you take an AP 3 weapon when your basic weapon has AP2 potential and is more effective for the cost. That about sums this debate up doesn't it? Gardians are more effective against meq than reapers?

They absolutely are not, the dark reapers can fire on the run, wound on3+ and have a 3' range advantage. And if you are facing bikes(as in the bike squads everyone on the internet is taking) you see a substantial increase in capability. They are in no way better at taking down meq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread is about blade storm, why are we all talking about waveserpent and scatter lasers?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So I die twice as fast as Marines to boltgun wounds, *and* Marines get the harder-hitting gun? Wtf?

I'm not arguing that the Boltgun is better than the Avenger Shuriken Catapult.

(That said, boltgun + battle focus vs 18" range means I get a *lot* of rounds of shooting before Marines ever get in range. So it wouldn't be a complete loss).

I'm arguing that, if the DA gun were outright worse, DAs would be outright worse than Marines. They pay a lot of points for that gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
T3 -> T4 is huge
4+ -> 3+ is huge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lobukia,
In what situations should Marines be able to beat DAs? In what situations, if any, should DAs be able to beat Marines?

You are wrong t3 compared to t4 is quite insignificant when you compare the cost of t4 to t3. If i could take all my marines for less points at t3 I would, In a heartbeat.

Hrm, how are we comparing T3 to T4 in terms of cost? And are we doing so without accidentally pulling other advantages into that comparison?

Because, lets face it, a lot of Marine units have other advantages beyond just T4 over most T3 units. Not only do they have higher T, but usually a better Sv and Ld as well. Meanwhile, a WS4 BS2 S3 T4 I2 A2 6+sv Furious Chargin' Ork pays 1ppm over a WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 A1 Ld7 5+sv guardsman and most people would take the Ork statline for 6pts if they could over the IG statline at 5pts, all other things being equal.

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know it seems like that.

There is no seems. I deny your weasel wording-- it flat out is that way, as an undeniable truth.

Just on equippable weapons alone, Marines have FAR more options to deal with guardians and their transports-- Sisters have exactly three, and all of them require that the sisters be within range of bladestorm.

Why are you arguing about Sisters vs Marines in a thread about Eldar?

Oh, right, Sisters players think everything is about them.

Perhaps make a new thread about this if you wish to debate it further, rather than clutter up this one.