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 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know it seems like that.

There is no seems. I deny your weasel wording-- it flat out is that way, as an undeniable truth.

Just on equippable weapons alone, Marines have FAR more options to deal with guardians and their transports-- Sisters have exactly three, and all of them require that the sisters be within range of bladestorm.

I was more talking about the deadly part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are better than tacs because they do the same amount of dmg and are cheaper

Marines do more damage, because of superior equipment options, so the premise of your argument is, as it has always been, nonsense.

Equipment options that cause them to give up even more points when they get gunned down by scatter lasers.


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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marsyas wrote:
My own complaint about bladestorm as an Eldar player is that it makes it psychologically difficult to justify taking, say, Dark Reapers or Shining Spears. Why should I spend points taking anti-MEQ specialists when I can just mass shuriken fire on them instead? It also further marginalizes Howling Banshees, but Howling Banshees are so worthless already that seeing them further marginalized is more laughable than anything else.

I want to play the "army of specialists" with dozens of moving parts all singing in perfect harmony, working together to destroy my enemies. In practice, though, it's way easier and more cost-effective just to mass shuriken weaponry for every nonvehicle threat and fill in with anti-tank as necessary.

I'm with you there - why would you take an AP 3 weapon when your basic weapon has AP2 potential and is more effective for the cost. That about sums this debate up doesn't it? Gardians are more effective against meq than reapers?

They absolutely are not, the dark reapers can fire on the run, wound on3+ and have a 3' range advantage. And if you are facing bikes(as in the bike squads everyone on the internet is taking) you see a substantial increase in capability. They are in no way better at taking down meq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread is about blade storm, why are we all talking about waveserpent and scatter lasers?

Because you can't separate Bladestorm from the context of C:Eldar. If Eldar only had Bladestorm, it would be fine.

Seriously, MEQ suck because for 110 points you can get a Guardian squad with a Scatter Laser?

So it can kill less than 1 Marine a round?

I fail to see how that makes *blade storm* broken, but you are certainly overstating things in either case.

Sisters were brought up to show that players *do* pick t4 over t3 at just +2ppm. And that's another 3+ unit. Troops involved here are t3 4+ or 5+. And the 4+ version is actually only 1ppm cheaper...

Get over the Scatter Laser. Sure, Eldar are broken. But the Scatter Laser, itself, isn't removing heaps of Marines.

And not all incoming fire is s6. Might feel like it when you can shrug off so much s3/s4 shooting like Marines. But to Sisters or Eldar infantry, s3/s4 *is* a threat.

" But the Scatter Laser, itself, isn't removing heaps of Marines."

It is when there are 16 of them on the board.

Furthermore, if there existed a 36" gun S4 that had say, 8 shots, that weapon would most certainly be a threat to marines. S4 is often not a threat because the unit or stat profile of the weapon stinks. Go get close to 90 shoota boyz and come tell me how S4 is not a threat to marines.

What S6 DOES do is reduces marine's defenses to the same as a sister and very close to that of a DA.

Martel732 wrote:
" But the Scatter Laser, itself, isn't removing heaps of Marines."

It is when there are 16 of them on the board.

Furthermore, if there existed a 36" gun S4 that had say, 8 shots, that weapon would most certainly be a threat to marines. S4 is often not a threat because the unit or stat profile of the weapon stinks. Go get close to 90 shoota boyz and come tell me how S4 is not a threat to marines.

What S6 DOES do is reduces marine's defenses to the same as a sister and very close to that of a DA.

I will indulge your hyperbole and do the math.

16 Scatter Lasers = 64 shots.

64 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 1/3 = 11.85 dead marines.

Even the most point efficient Scatter Laser platform can only carry 6 (3 AV10 open-topped walkers for 210 points).

90 Shoota Boyz is 630 points and kills 10 marines.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, right, Sisters players think everything is about them.

OR it could be because a Marine player said he'd happily trade his T4 models for T3 ones for a points drop and the Sisters players were pointing out the logical fallacies with that statement.

Nice ad hominem fallacy btw.


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EDIT: I'm curious what Scatterlasers have to do with Bladestorm being potentially OP. Because I thought the thread was just looking at the Bladestorm rule, not taking a bunch of upgrades (which on most models cost a fair number of points) to make Bladestorm better.

xFinality wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" But the Scatter Laser, itself, isn't removing heaps of Marines."

It is when there are 16 of them on the board.

Furthermore, if there existed a 36" gun S4 that had say, 8 shots, that weapon would most certainly be a threat to marines. S4 is often not a threat because the unit or stat profile of the weapon stinks. Go get close to 90 shoota boyz and come tell me how S4 is not a threat to marines.

What S6 DOES do is reduces marine's defenses to the same as a sister and very close to that of a DA.

I will indulge your hyperbole and do the math.

16 Scatter Lasers = 64 shots.

64 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 1/3 = 11.85 dead marines.

Even the most point efficient Scatter Laser platform can only carry 6 (3 AV10 open-topped walkers for 210 points).

90 Shoota Boyz is 630 points and kills 10 marines.

It has not hyperbole; I've seen both on the table before, and the 16 scatter lasers was much more difficult to death with because their table coverage compared to the 18" shoota. Those 64 shots start coming in turn 1 with no real effort needed on the part of the Eldar player and never stop. The shoota boyz, by necessity, can't be mechanized and have to walk to within 18". All kinds of things can go wrong with that. And some of those scatter lasers were backed up by SS as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, right, Sisters players think everything is about them.

OR it could be because a Marine player said he'd happily trade his T4 models for T3 ones for a points drop and the Sisters players were pointing out the logical fallacies with that statement.

Nice ad hominem fallacy btw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: I'm curious what Scatterlasers have to do with Bladestorm being potentially OP. Because I thought the thread was just looking at the Bladestorm rule, not taking a bunch of upgrades (which on most models cost a fair number of points) to make Bladestorm better.

As has been stated, it's hard to separate the rule from its codex. It's probably not OP in a vacuum, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. That makes it very hard to say. Honestly, I would that Bladestorm is being dumped on because it is just part of the Eldar beat downs being handed out. And, as I mention, making 2+ save units worse than they already are.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, right, Sisters players think everything is about them.

OR it could be because a Marine player said he'd happily trade his T4 models for T3 ones for a points drop and the Sisters players were pointing out the logical fallacies with that statement.

Nice ad hominem fallacy btw.

Specific never disproves general.

But an absolute is disproved by a single example.

Sisters were relevant, and their inclusion made certain things obvious, assisting in trying to return this thread to discussing Bladestorm.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, right, Sisters players think everything is about them.

OR it could be because a Marine player said he'd happily trade his T4 models for T3 ones for a points drop and the Sisters players were pointing out the logical fallacies with that statement.

Nice ad hominem fallacy btw.

Specific never disproves general.

So on topic discussion is off topic and just attention-seeking according to you? Seriously, can we just get back on topic or are you just going to continue to post off-topic complaints from now until a mod locks the thread?

@Martel732 I get that things are hard to separate in a vacuum, but at the end of the day when we're looking at one specific rule we should be looking at it in a vacuum. Otherwise we can get way off course with discussions why things aren't OP because of OP combinations in other books.

EDIT: Typo.

When I'm deciding what troops to bring, its quite useful to know how hated Bladestorm will be, so we can try to have the maximum amount of fun. More DAs, drop in some Guardians, or would they rather see Rangers? Answers to the 'is Bladestorm OP' question help me with those decisions.

(Playing my Tau tonight anyways, but next week. If Harlies don't eat too many points...)

I would really love to see the list that's bringing 16 Scatter Lasers to the board turn 1. That's more than an entire army's worth in most cases. Even in the extreme cases where that may happen, most of them will be on extremely fragile platforms (Vypers/Warwalkers).

Bharring wrote:
When I'm deciding what troops to bring, its quite useful to know how hated Bladestorm will be, so we can try to have the maximum amount of fun. More DAs, drop in some Guardians, or would they rather see Rangers? Answers to the 'is Bladestorm OP' question help me with those decisions.

(Playing my Tau tonight anyways, but next week. If Harlies don't eat too many points...)

Honestly with how short range most Shuriken weapons are, I see a lot of dead Eldar before they really get a good chance to fire back against most targets. About the best you could probably do it 10 DA in a WS rolling up, then hopping out the next turn to potentially kill a squad, but things like 20 Guardians are going to have a fair number dead before they can really effectively bring their weapons to bear. I almost see BS being more useful as a counter-charge protection than a straight up offensive thing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, right, Sisters players think everything is about them.

OR it could be because a Marine player said he'd happily trade his T4 models for T3 ones for a points drop and the Sisters players were pointing out the logical fallacies with that statement.

Nice ad hominem fallacy btw.

Specific never disproves general.

So on topic discussion is off topic and just attention-seeking according to you? Seriously, can we just get back on topic or are you just going to continue to post off-topic complaints from now until a mod locks the thread?

@Martel732 I get that things are hard to separate in a vacuum, but at the end of the day when we're looking at one specific rule we should be looking at it in a vacuum. Otherwise we can get way off course with discussions why things aren't OP because of OP combinations in other books.

EDIT: Typo.

I'm afraid I just find it endlessly amusing how Sisters players relentlessly martyr themselves and are totally humourless about their faction. It is almost like you're not a proper Sisters player unless you're miserable and po-faced about it.

But yes, we digress, do carry on.

 Azreal13 wrote:

I'm afraid I just find it endlessly amusing how Sisters players relentlessly martyr themselves and are totally humourless about their faction. It is almost like you're not a proper Sisters player unless you're miserable and po-faced about it.

I have a sense of humor about Sisters (I mean why else would me avatar be humor based?). Honestly the only reason I brought them up in this thread is that they are the closest T3 models to Marines (being that they shoot the same and wear the same 3+ save) to show why being T3 isn't really an automatic boon just because they're cheaper.

Stating facts about why a statement is incorrect doesn't mean you don't have a sense of humor, it just means you prefer some accuracy in claims being made. But go on, keep digging that hole about how horrible Sisters players are.

I'm actually with xFinality on the Scatter Laser thing. What kind of list runs 16 Scatter Lasers? I mean that pretty much leaves you with no heavy armor support, and you're probably not actually benefiting from the TL rule since it makes you roll the Scatter Laser shots first, then all weapons rolled after them can potentially get the TL. Also Laser Lock only effects that model's shots meaning that it's useless to Guardians.

I'm just stating an opinion I've formed based on my experiences on Dakka.

By continuing to argue the point rather than laughing it off, you're not really doing much to dispel my preconceptions.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm just stating an opinion I've formed based on my experiences on Dakka.

By continuing to argue the point rather than laughing it off, you're not really doing much to dispel my preconceptions.

"Stop telling me that my accusations about your character are wrong and just let me insult you with no argument!"

Yeah no, when gak comes out of your mouth (or in this case, is posted to a public forum on the internet) I have every right to challenge it, even if you think it makes me a killjoy. You want me to have fun? Start by keeping your gak to yourself so we can have friendly conversations without the name calling. Because nothing kills the mood faster than someone who spews gak everywhere.

You're still doing it...

You both want this thread back on track. You both disagree with the other's assessment, and have stated your cases.

Move to PM, new thread, or ideally let the topic lapse at this point? You both seem like decent people.

I think Bladestorm is a decent ability. Nothing too bad to really get your knickers in a twist about.

I'm not an Eldar player but play against them often. Bladestorm is fluffy and characterful **

Most threads like this, particularly when discussing a strong Codex is that one small ability opens the floodgates to all things players don't like.

The Eldar book is strong. Most would agree the strongest on the market atm.

There are a couple of things that go too far imo:

Waveserpents, only the most delusional Eldar diehard would consider this a reasonable unit.
Jetbikes, maybe not a widespread gripe but I play DE so maybe I'm a little envious. I want my bikes like these.

For the sake of this topic you absolutely can look at Bladestorm in a vaccuum. Read the lines for the ability as a stand alone statement in relation to the rulebook and the ability sits just right in the game.
It is the fact that it is a small piece of a very strong, fluid book full of synergy and decent abilities that is gets tarred with a broadstroke brush of "OP Eldar"

In an ideal world this would be the benchmark book (WS aside) to which all others were brought up to meet. Not ripping one of the very few well written books we have in the game to pieces.


**
I do think for fluff reasons more than anything Bladestorm should only be available to DA. There needs to be a greater distinction between the most ancient Aspect Warriors and the Eldar shopkeepers and the like.

Bharring wrote:
You both want this thread back on track. You both disagree with the other's assessment, and have stated your cases.

Move to PM, new thread, or ideally let the topic lapse at this point? You both seem like decent people.

Really good advice there....

I can see where you're coming from Wildboar, but while the Eldar book is offensively strong, outside of WS reducing pens to glances with the SS, I think that it'd doesn't have that much defense compared to other armies. Crons vs Eldar should be an interesting game in my book just because you have two armies who are complete opposites in how they approach the game (dealing wounds vs not taking wounds) and if anything the way they play now vs each other makes the War on Heaven a little easier to visualize as something truly epic.

xFinality wrote:
I would really love to see the list that's bringing 16 Scatter Lasers to the board turn 1. That's more than an entire army's worth in most cases. Even in the extreme cases where that may happen, most of them will be on extremely fragile platforms (Vypers/Warwalkers).

Warwalkers in ruins can be frustrating to remove. On other boards, they might actually be able to get behind LOS blocking terrain after firing. I believe it was four WS and two squads of scatter walkers. That's extreme? Okay.

Martel732 wrote:

xFinality wrote:
I would really love to see the list that's bringing 16 Scatter Lasers to the board turn 1. That's more than an entire army's worth in most cases. Even in the extreme cases where that may happen, most of them will be on extremely fragile platforms (Vypers/Warwalkers).

Warwalkers in ruins can be frustrating to remove. On other boards, they might actually be able to get behind LOS blocking terrain after firing. I believe it was four WS and two squads of scatter walkers. That's extreme? Okay.

The extreme part is more how lopsided the list seems when you put that many of a single weapon on the table (outside of Leafblower Guard).

S6 is quite the panacea. Why not spam it?

If memory serves, there might have been a squad of scatter/starcannon walkers. So that's a few less shots coming in ,but replaced with TL S6 AP 2. It was a slaughter. That I DO remember.

Martel732 wrote:
S6 is quite the panacea. Why not spam it?

If memory serves, there might have been a squad of scatter/starcannon walkers. So that's a few less shots coming in ,but replaced with TL S6 AP 2. It was a slaughter. That I DO remember.

S6 can't scratch AV13, much less AV14. With Leman Russ tanks, Vindicators, Predators, Land Raiders, and Knights in the game that kind of overspecialization is just asking for a bad match up in tournament play.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
S6 is quite the panacea. Why not spam it?

If memory serves, there might have been a squad of scatter/starcannon walkers. So that's a few less shots coming in ,but replaced with TL S6 AP 2. It was a slaughter. That I DO remember.

S6 can't scratch AV13, much less AV14. With Leman Russ tanks, Vindicators, Predators, Land Raiders, and Knights in the game that kind of overspecialization is just asking for a bad match up in tournament play.

It's easy enough for WS to get the sides of Rhino hulls.

Land Raiders are laughably bad.

That leaves Russes and Knights. I think this game might have been before knights, and I"m not sure how much Eldar care about Russes.

What do Eldar bring to counter knights and does this help my BA at all? Probably not.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I can see where you're coming from Wildboar, but while the Eldar book is offensively strong, outside of WS reducing pens to glances with the SS, I think that it'd doesn't have that much defense compared to other armies. Crons vs Eldar should be an interesting game in my book just because you have two armies who are complete opposites in how they approach the game (dealing wounds vs not taking wounds) and if anything the way they play now vs each other makes the War on Heaven a little easier to visualize as something truly epic.

Eldar can run entire armies around with 3+ & 2+ cover saves (often even in the open) and rerolls galore. With lots of ability to exploit psychic power like Invisibility, the horrible things you can do with seer councils and farseers, Jump MC's with Gargantuan Creature statlines, and more, Eldar really don't come out bad in the resiliency department.

Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
S6 is quite the panacea. Why not spam it?

If memory serves, there might have been a squad of scatter/starcannon walkers. So that's a few less shots coming in ,but replaced with TL S6 AP 2. It was a slaughter. That I DO remember.

S6 can't scratch AV13, much less AV14. With Leman Russ tanks, Vindicators, Predators, Land Raiders, and Knights in the game that kind of overspecialization is just asking for a bad match up in tournament play.

It's easy enough for WS to get the sides of Rhino hulls.

Land Raiders are laughably bad.

That leaves Russes and Knights. I think this game might have been before knights, and I"m not sure how much Eldar care about Russes.

WS can do more to Rhino hulls from the side with just the Serpent Shield, the Laser at that point is just salt on the wound.

Vaktathi wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I can see where you're coming from Wildboar, but while the Eldar book is offensively strong, outside of WS reducing pens to glances with the SS, I think that it'd doesn't have that much defense compared to other armies. Crons vs Eldar should be an interesting game in my book just because you have two armies who are complete opposites in how they approach the game (dealing wounds vs not taking wounds) and if anything the way they play now vs each other makes the War on Heaven a little easier to visualize as something truly epic.

Between the capability for routine 3+ jink saves, even in the open, lots of abilities to gain 2+ or 3+ cover saves on other units and reroll failed saves through psychic powers along with lots of ability to exploit psychic power like Invisibility, Jump MC's with Gargantuan Creature statlines, and more, Eldar really don't come out bad in the resiliency department.

Crons have at least some Ignores Cover (Tomb Blades), but I see where you're coming from there. Honestly I'm more for Runes of Fate on Eldar than Telepathy, but that's just me. And Crons are able to wound Wraithknights more readily than most armies (outside of Dark Eldar).

But yeah, I get what you're saying, but the entire Necron army is built around tanking, unlike the Eldar where some things are able to tank in certain circumstances.

Because so many Eldar are riding in very effective AV 12 vehicles with jink, I'd argue that they are more resilient than most marine lists.

Martel732 wrote:
Because so many Eldar are riding in very effective AV 12 vehicles with jink, I'd argue that they are more resilient than most marine lists.

Maybe in your local meta. Not everyone plays the Wave Serpent spam.

I'd love to see Falcons as a DT in the next codex just so people had options of other things to take outside of the WS if they want to put things in a transport.