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I use the ultramarines chapter. This means that I can use the ultramarines doctrines. I would however like to use the Imperial Fists, Bolter Drill doctrine. Do I have to use an Imperial Fist allied detachment to do that?I understand would be at a minimum, an Imperial Fist HQ and troop choice. dsf

As I understand it if you did that only the Imperial Fists detachment would have access to the Imperial Fists chapter tactics, your primary detachment would still be Ultramarine. If you're talking about a friendly game I can't imagine many people you'd play (more to the point want to play) wouldn't let you use IF chapter tactics with UM paint, at least to try it out.

If somebody did say they wouldn't play your marines as imperial fists cause their painted as ultra marine, even in tournament play, they are going against games workshop ruling, are trying to cheat you, and you shouldn't play with them. Games workshop has stated you can paint vanilla marines however you want period, and play them as any chapter you want period. Meaning I can paint my marines black templare and play ultra marines or salamanders or crimson fists or iron hands. And my opponent has to either accept it(in tourney play this isn't an option, your forced to accept it) or not play, which you're then being tfg

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If somebody did say they wouldn't play your marines as imperial fists cause their painted as ultra marine, even in tournament play, they are going against games workshop ruling, are trying to cheat you, and you shouldn't play with them.

The underlined is not correct. Tournaments are free to make whatever house rules they want. If they have a rule that says if your Space Marines are painted as a specific Chapter then you must use their Chapter Tactics then that is entirely within their rights to do so.

Never seen that ruling in a tourney and could see many marine players ignoring a tournet with such rule

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean that it can't happen. A tournament can institute any house rules they like, and if you want to play I that tournament you must abide by those rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean that it can't happen. A tournament can institute any house rules they like, and if you want to play I that tournament you must abide by those rules.

I never said you were wrong. Only that I hadn't seen one. Other than that small fraction of a sentence, everything else I said is correct. And as far as tourneys run, what I've said is also correct. Is that rule possible yes, but my statement so far is accurate.

I personally don't like people painting models in one way and playing with different tactics, but at the same time it wouldn't stop me playing against them. Just make sure your opponent is happy with it before you start.

Edit: misread question
Just make an allied detachment or CAD yeah and then give them other tactics.

dsfarwell wrote:
I use the ultramarines chapter. This means that I can use the ultramarines doctrines. I would however like to use the Imperial Fists, Bolter Drill doctrine. Do I have to use an Imperial Fist allied detachment to do that?I understand would be at a minimum, an Imperial Fist HQ and troop choice. dsf

As others have said, you cannot have "Bolter Drill doctrine" to use on your Ultramarines.

If you ally some Imperial Fists, THEY can use "Bolter Drill doctrine", but the rest of your army (Ultramarines) cannot use that doctrine.

If you want your entire army to have "Bolter Drill doctrine", then they all have to be Imperial Fists, and they would no longer have the Ultramarine Doctrines.

Why field Ultramarines if you want to use Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics? Do you want "Bolter Drill Doctrine" on named Ultramarine characters?

 Ghaz wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If somebody did say they wouldn't play. your marines as imperial fists cause their painted as ultra marine, even in tournament play, they are going against games workshop ruling, are trying to cheat you, and you shouldn't play with them.

The underlined is not correct. Tournaments are free to make whatever house rules they want. If they have a rule that says if your Space Marines are painted as a specific Chapter then you must use their Chapter Tactics then that is entirely within their rights to do so.

So theres some tournies that dont allow you to make your own chapter?

The only problem youre gonna have by just switching chapter tactics is you cant run the ultra IC's. If youre not running any of em just switch over. Either way only imperial fist units can use imp. Fist tactics and same to ultramarines

Where did I say that there's tournaments that don't allow you to make your own Chapter? Its not in the passage you quoted.

Youre saying a house rule could say that my....super marines chapter that are painted exactly like ultramarines, cause i like the way it looks, cant run black templars tactics cause they are painted like ultra

Yes, a tournament can enforce any house rules that they like. That's not the same as saying there are tournaments that don't allow you to make your own Chapters.

 Ghaz wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If somebody did say they wouldn't play your marines as imperial fists cause their painted as ultra marine, even in tournament play, they are going against games workshop ruling, are trying to cheat you, and you shouldn't play with them.

The underlined is not correct. Tournaments are free to make whatever house rules they want. If they have a rule that says if your Space Marines are painted as a specific Chapter then you must use their Chapter Tactics then that is entirely within their rights to do so.

I would say the underlined is correct. It is the tournament that is changing the game. What you are saying would be like me hosting a Monopoly tournament and telling people they cannot buy Boardwalk.

Tournament rules do not supersede the game's actual rules but people tend to think they do.

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Tournament rules do not supersede the game's actual rules but people tend to think they do.

GW made the game practically anything goes, leaving it to the players to make their own limitations.Tournament organizers are just imposing limitations the same way players do. Nowhere in the books is there a rule about only taking armies from two sources, yet that has become fairly standard for tournaments. If a tournament imposes ridiculous restrictions, then we as the players have the right to not participate, just as we don't have to play against an army with Super Heavies if we don't want to.

If a tournament decided to include the paint design as part of WYSIWYG, that is in their right, because in the case of the Space Marines, Painting them as Ultra-marines and using a different set of Chapter Tactics is just as misleading as having it modeled with a chainsword, when he actually has a Power Sword. For the Grey Knights that means the Purifiers would have to have White helmets, because that is the only visible thing that distinguishes them from Strike Squads. Such a ruling would make it easier for the officials adjudicating the tournament to know what's going on, rather than having to have everything explained.

 Bill1138 wrote:

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Tournament rules do not supersede the game's actual rules but people tend to think they do.

GW made the game practically anything goes, leaving it to the players to make their own limitations.Tournament organizers are just imposing limitations the same way players do. Nowhere in the books is there a rule about only taking armies from two sources, yet that has become fairly standard for tournaments. If a tournament imposes ridiculous restrictions, then we as the players have the right to not participate, just as we don't have to play against an army with Super Heavies if we don't want to.

If a tournament decided to include the paint design as part of WYSIWYG, that is in their right, because in the case of the Space Marines, Painting them as Ultra-marines and using a different set of Chapter Tactics is just as misleading as having it modeled with a chainsword, when he actually has a Power Sword. For the Grey Knights that means the Purifiers would have to have White helmets, because that is the only visible thing that distinguishes them from Strike Squads. Such a ruling would make it easier for the officials adjudicating the tournament to know what's going on, rather than having to have everything explained.

I know that is how it goes. I was just pointing out that technically Pain4Pleasure was correct. What he wants to do is perfectly legal according to the actual rules. However most tournaments change the rules and if you want to play you got to play by their changes.

A tournament can change any rule they want to. It's called a house rule. Tournaments routinely change the rules by limiting the number of detachments/formations the players can use in building their lists. You don't see GW sending Officio Assasinorium agents after the tournament organizers for changing the rules, but the tournament organizer will kick you out of the tournament for intentionally breaking the tournament rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
A tournament can change any rule they want to. It's called a house rule. Tournaments routinely change the rules by limiting the number of detachments/formations the players can use in building their lists. You don't see GW sending Officio Assasinorium agents after the tournament organizers for changing the rules, but the tournament organizer will kick you out of the tournament for intentionally breaking the tournament rules.

I think I have already established that I understand that. For the third time, a house rule is a change in the actual rules. Pain4Pleasure can run painted ultramarines as crimson fists if he wants to legally. A house rule is the only thing that is illegal in this situation (according the the actual rules). However if you want to play at a tournament you have to go by their changes, so sadly most tournaments would prevent him from playing his list legally.

After playing games like Magic the Gathering for years I find the tournament house rules for warhammer 40K to be a little irritating. The way they run their tournaments would be like a Magic the Gathering tournament not letting you use swamps as lands in a mono black deck.

 Lord Scythican wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
A tournament can change any rule they want to. It's called a house rule. Tournaments routinely change the rules by limiting the number of detachments/formations the players can use in building their lists. You don't see GW sending Officio Assasinorium agents after the tournament organizers for changing the rules, but the tournament organizer will kick you out of the tournament for intentionally breaking the tournament rules.

I think I have already established that I understand that. For the third time, a house rule is a change in the actual rules. Pain4Pleasure can run painted ultramarines as crimson fists if he wants to legally. A house rule is the only thing that is illegal in this situation (according the the actual rules). However if you want to play at a tournament you have to go by their changes, so sadly most tournaments would prevent him from playing his list legally.

The problem people have with your statements is the underlined - its simply not true.

Rigeld is correct. If a tournament says its illegal, then its illegal.

Sadly you are both wrong. House rules only supersede game rules because we let them. house rules change the fundamental aspects of the game. I guess the problem is, if GW was better with their rules we wouldn't even have this conversation. Games like MtG all all over answering rules disputes and making sure everything works correctly. They have better structured tournaments and everything where house rules are not needed.

All I am saying as that the OP's original question is not illegal according to the rules. It only becomes illegal when a tournament changes the actual rules of the game.

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Sadly you are both wrong. House rules only supersede game rules because we let them. house rules change the fundamental aspects of the game. I guess the problem is, if GW was better with their rules we wouldn't even have this conversation. Games like MtG all all over answering rules disputes and making sure everything works correctly. They have better structured tournaments and everything where house rules are not needed.

This has literally nothing to do with how poorly GW writes rules.

You've made the statement (multiple times) that most tournaments would prevent him from playing this way.
That statement is factually incorrect. That's all I've said is wrong.

What a little flame war here, can't we all except diffrent people/places have there own prefrences on the topic of such a self imposed rule?