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Where to start....

The thread about the emperor body thread was closed because I was being accused as making stuff up and other stated that Emperor corps should be giant 10 ft and can't be 6 ft man size.
I told people that 10 Ft was the Omega theory or E was keeping his last stage of his life size body as a giant. I don't buy this theory.
My theory was the Alpha theory.. the beginning of his life. Which he was born as a normal man size 6 ft tall and he was a peaceful man and very humble. For 38,000 years from 8,000 BC to about 30,000 AD... he was a humble and teaching man to be better. Yes, he was a warrior at times... but for most.. he was a religious leader, Messiah, scientist... etc...

Then My ancient Alien thread got closed also... because I thought the E must have helped those civilization too.

I got bashed for it... Most of you don't know who the Emperor really was I guess. So now I will proof to you.

We can agree to disagree about which body he choose in the end, Alpha or Omega... that is fine.... but my point is valid.

Here is a small part from Lost and the Damned... THE ORIGINAL STORY OF THE NEW MAN.. THE EMPEROR....

NOTICE: Humble and peaceful were used a lot to describe this NEW MAN the Emperor. He was made from the Shamans ... who were peaceful and humble people.

The Emperor of 40,000 is but a small part of his life... he spent more than 70% of his life as humble servant of humanity.

MOD... Please read the content....

This other part….

Read the top part…
FOR ILLUMINATION OF THE READER….


E might want to be remember as who he always wanted to be, which was a humble and peaceful man. Not the warrior and killer of worlds that he was forced to be. It is a sad story….

He was born as a normal man with power… but NORMAL… not Giant.

Your arguments are all personal theory bro with little or no source in the Cannon. If you like it and want to roll with it good for you but insisting its real in post after post just feeds the trolls. Also ide hardly consider someone created via the sacrifice and life force of a thousand(s) shamans a "normal man with power".

He was seemed as "a normal human child", no where does it say he grew like normal human would or how tall he was - he only "adopted the guise of a normal human" because he was hidding his true identity. Nowhere says how tall he really is. Also how many "others" were monumental figures of world history or religion? Surely he wouldn't want that if he were, as you claimed, always wanted to be remembered as a humble man?

 KhorneIsLove wrote:
Your arguments are all personal theory bro with little or no source in the Cannon. If you like it and want to roll with it good for you but insisting its real in post after post just feeds the trolls. Also ide hardly consider someone created via the sacrifice and life force of a thousand(s) shamans a "normal man with power".

Are you kidding me?

Then those people should have respected my personal opinion right? I didn't bash their view... as I stated many times... two different views.

What do you mean.. not cannon... it is right there.... he was born as NORMAL man. He was peaceful and humble..for the most part of his life of 38,000 years...not the dictator or a overlord tyrant that you guys made him out to be. He spent about 250 years or so as a tyrant because he had too.

38,000 years
vs.
Starting Imperium years... while alive and great crusade ...how many years was that? 200 - 500 years??

You think about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lcmiracle wrote:
He was seemed as "a normal human child", no where does it say he grew like normal human would or how tall he was - he only "adopted the guise of a normal human" because he was hidding his true identity. Nowhere says how tall he really is. Also how many "others" were monumental figures of world history or religion? Surely he wouldn't want that if he were, as you claimed, always wanted to be remembered as a humble man?

OK, did you read the story... you got the idea of tyrant and overlord from reading that or.... humble and peaceful and kind.

Please just let it go with this.

He was born normal. He lived normal. It didn't say he was hiding his Bigfoot size body at all. Even if he was a Bigfoot... he was normal for the most part...

Are you saying after he left his family... he grew to be 100 ft tall and hide his size with magic? Come on.. you are making up stuff... just read as is...

 david choe wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lcmiracle wrote:
He was seemed as "a normal human child", no where does it say he grew like normal human would or how tall he was - he only "adopted the guise of a normal human" because he was hidding his true identity. Nowhere says how tall he really is. Also how many "others" were monumental figures of world history or religion? Surely he wouldn't want that if he were, as you claimed, always wanted to be remembered as a humble man?

OK, did you read the story... you got the idea of tyrant and overlord from reading that or.... humble and peaceful and kind.

Please just let it go with this.

He was born normal. He lived normal. It didn't say he was hiding his Bigfoot size body at all. Even if he was a Bigfoot... he was normal for the most part...

Are you saying after he left his family... he grew to be 100 ft tall and hide his size with magic? Come on.. you are making up stuff... just read as is...

I read the story as it is, and all it said is he adopted normal human guises, many of them humble and forgotten, others glamorous and took their marks upon human history. Nowhere did it suggest the Emperor was a humble man or that he wanted to be remembered as such. In fact, given it is the monumental guises he used that are remembered, I could easily claim it's the glory and fame that he want remembered. Your claim about the Emperor's wants and his innermost psyche is unfounded.

As for his actual physical attributes: a being with millions of year to grow can be anything. A normal human infant can grow from a foot and a half to adults 5, 6, sometimes even 7, 8 feet. Their infantile appearances reflects scant little about their adult forms. What the Emperor is physically is determined by the fluff that says it. And the new fluff says he is more commonly seen as tall as his primarchs. That's the measurement we take against the current size of the Emperor in the fluff.

Now let me make this clear to you, kid: the thing you are quoting is from a book intended for the 2nd edition Warhammer 40K, it has the Star Child Theory in it, making whatever is in that book that hasn't been reaffirmed canonically ambiguous. Was the Emperor a giant of a man in that book? Maybe yes, maybe not, it is never stated. But he is, or at least described as one now. Fluff changes, many such stories have come and gone. In the HH novels they are giants amongst men, towering over astartes and the like. The Emperor is as such that The Emperor would terra-form an entire planet into a perfect sphere just so he could have all his legions gather and march and hold the ceremony to make Horus Warmaster.

 david choe wrote:

What do you mean.. not cannon... it is right there.... he was born as NORMAL man. He was peaceful and humble..for the most part of his life of 38,000 years...not the dictator or a overlord tyrant that you guys made him out to be. He spent about 250 years or so as a tyrant because he had too.

No, it says his parents and siblings were normal and that they had no reason to think him extraordinary.

As for being marked as a tyrant/despot, the shoe fits. Even if it was ultimately for a (questionably) good cause he got his hands DIRTY. He stole power from "evil" entities then was shocked when those entities intervened. He allowed the corruption of his sons knowing they would likely be tempted by the powers that wrought them. His methods and those of his advocates where genocidal. On top of all that he paved the way for the despicable, backwards bureaucracy that the Empire has become.

 david choe wrote:
The thread about the emperor body thread was closed because I was being accused as making stuff up and other stated that Emperor corps should be giant 10 ft and can't be 6 ft man size.

No, that thread was closed because it was a train-wreck. I'm willing to give this one the benefit of the doubt so long as things remain civil and intelligible.

My theory was the Alpha theory.. the beginning of his life. Which he was born as a normal man size 6 ft tall and he was a peaceful man and very humble. For 38,000 years from 8,000 BC to about 30,000 AD... he was a humble and teaching man to be better. Yes, he was a warrior at times... but for most.. he was a religious leader, Messiah, scientist... etc...

The text you posted says otherwise.

Specifically "...adopting the guise of a normal man, and without revealing his true nature."

Which suggests rather plainly that he was anything but a 'normal man'.


The thing is, the backstory of 40K has changed significantly since Rogue Trader. The Emperor wasn't originally portrayed as the gigantic monster that he later became... but neither were regular Space Marines. From 2nd edition onwards, the fluff has shifted towards less suble and more grandiose. The Primarchs became towering lords amongst their supermen, and the Emperor had to be more impressive even than his Primarchs.


So however he started out, the Emperor is not a 'normal man'.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 david choe wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lcmiracle wrote:
He was seemed as "a normal human child", no where does it say he grew like normal human would or how tall he was - he only "adopted the guise of a normal human" because he was hidding his true identity. Nowhere says how tall he really is. Also how many "others" were monumental figures of world history or religion? Surely he wouldn't want that if he were, as you claimed, always wanted to be remembered as a humble man?

OK, did you read the story... you got the idea of tyrant and overlord from reading that or.... humble and peaceful and kind.

Please just let it go with this.

He was born normal. He lived normal. It didn't say he was hiding his Bigfoot size body at all. Even if he was a Bigfoot... he was normal for the most part...

Are you saying after he left his family... he grew to be 100 ft tall and hide his size with magic? Come on.. you are making up stuff... just read as is...

I read the story as it is, and all it said is he adopted normal human guises, many of them humble and forgotten, others glamorous and took their marks upon human history. Nowhere did it suggest the Emperor was a humble man or that he wanted to be remembered as such. In fact, given it is the monumental guises he used that are remembered, I could easily claim it's the glory and fame that he want remembered. Your claim about the Emperor's wants and his innermost psyche is unfounded.

Now let me make this clear to you, kid: the thing you are quoting is from a book intended for the 2nd edition Warhammer 40K, it has the Star Child Theory in it, making whatever is in that book to be canonically ambiguous. Was the Emperor a giant of a man in that book? Maybe not. But he is, or at least described as one now. Fluff changes, many such stories have come and gone. In the HH novels they are giants amongst men, towering over astartes and the like. The Emperor is as such that The Emperor would terra-form an entire planet into a perfect sphere just so he could have all his legions march gather and hold the ceremony to make Horus Warmaster.

First....

"Using his ancient wisdom to spread efficient government .... and PEACE"

"Many of the guises he adopted were HUMBLE, ...."

This is an out of universe explanation... it tells us what he wanted and what his motives where. I mean... seriously .... any 9th grade taking English Lit who read the fluff will take it that he was a humble peaceful man, trying to help humanity. He was not a tyrant or a dictator. Stop the debate on this issue Please. Moving on.

The proof is there, you can pick it apart and claim this and that to justified your position is up to you. Like I said... you are justifying your position.

Later in his final days he became a tyrant and overlord because he had too. NOBODY IS DISAGREEING WITH YOU HERE.

Second... Kid, I know fluff has changed , but has it? Did it change his personality of his Alpha stage of his life? Was he a destroyer of civilization because he can or because he must? The story of Emperor is he wanted man to survive Chaos and he must do what he must... his goal is of nobel and he always wanted peace and harmoney. I haven't read that he wanted the worlds for his greed and selfish reasons. It has always been for mankind. He knew best and only he understood what sacrifice must be taken to defeat Chaos.


Size....He was born normal. He lived normal for the most part as man size. Maybe he hide his halo or his size, it is not reveal. So one thing is for sure ... he was normal size even if he was hiding. So most of his life he existed as a man size man. Stop with this crap of he is a giant in disguise..... Like I stated, even if he was... he still LIVED as normal size man.

Giant size... yes he was giant size for the later part of his life... and only about what???? 500 years! You don't have to tell me that he was a giant. I am not debating the giant size during the Great Crusade and the HH...

So now you know my position is based on facts not making up... as you assume.

My Alpha position is based on fact... weather or not he choose to be in alpha stage is up to GW ... but I do have my reasons based on facts.

1 - More peaceful than tyrant.
2 - More normal size than Giant size.

 david choe wrote:
"Many of the guises he adopted were HUMBLE, ...."

guise
/ɡʌɪz/

noun: guise; plural noun: guises

an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
"Many of the guises he adopted were HUMBLE, ...."

guise
/ɡʌɪz/

noun: guise; plural noun: guises

an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.

Yeah.. only you would interpreted the context of that as Giant or a hydra or a dragon....most people would view that as MLK, Gandhi, or even Mother Teresa ...LOL

Nope, he is definitely NOT more peaceful than a tyrant, the Great Crusade in of itself demonstrates that. If he was about peace he wouldn't wage intergalactic war or literally make demigods of mass destruction as his intended generals to lead said war. Even if its for the so-called good of mankind, there's several instances where humans who aren't willing and aren't corrupted/enslaved by xenos or Chaos are ruthlessly crushed and assimilated into the Imperium against their consent. Even in the Unification Wars prior the Great Crusade the Emperor committed effective genocide against large swathes of those who did not submit and systematically wiped out innocent practitioners of faith like in the short story of the Last Church, where even the last cleric/priest sees into the core of the Emperor and witnesses the molten violence behind the golden façade he creates.

Plus by your logic, an insane murderer who kills people to "free them of the bleakness of life" is a misunderstood Saint who cannot be condemned as he is only doing the thing that no one else will do or can. He's normal too btw, just like your wrongfully claiming the Emperor is.

Also, don't put words into insaniak's mouth, he said nothing of the sort. You're also completely missing insaniak's point, he's using a GUISE to be humble. As in he ISN'T humble. He's PRETENDING to be. Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

 david choe wrote:

Yeah.. only you would interpreted the context of that as Giant or a hydra or a dragon....

What?

No. I interpret that as meaning that the 'humble man' was just a guise, and not his true nature.


Because that's what it means.

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
The thread about the emperor body thread was closed because I was being accused as making stuff up and other stated that Emperor corps should be giant 10 ft and can't be 6 ft man size.

No, that thread was closed because it was a train-wreck. I'm willing to give this one the benefit of the doubt so long as things remain civil and intelligible.

My theory was the Alpha theory.. the beginning of his life. Which he was born as a normal man size 6 ft tall and he was a peaceful man and very humble. For 38,000 years from 8,000 BC to about 30,000 AD... he was a humble and teaching man to be better. Yes, he was a warrior at times... but for most.. he was a religious leader, Messiah, scientist... etc...

The text you posted says otherwise.

Specifically "...adopting the guise of a normal man, and without revealing his true nature."

Which suggests rather plainly that he was anything but a 'normal man'.


The thing is, the backstory of 40K has changed significantly since Rogue Trader. The Emperor wasn't originally portrayed as the gigantic monster that he later became... but neither were regular Space Marines. From 2nd edition onwards, the fluff has shifted towards less suble and more grandiose. The Primarchs became towering lords amongst their supermen, and the Emperor had to be more impressive even than his Primarchs.


So however he started out, the Emperor is not a 'normal man'.

My position on the other thread was always normal size and peaceful and humble in his Alpha stage... why are you saying that I didn't write that... go read it.

the guise of normal man with out revealing his true nature is...... I interpreted as he is a powerful psychic man from 8,000BC is his true nature. Not some giant man with halo.

Look, I know fluff changed ... and most of the changed fluff are about his Imperium and crusade stage... Or I call it his Omega stage. All his humble beginning crux of it is still the same. In other words, his Alpha stage is what I stated. The Alpha stage of his life was 38,000 years! His Omega stage of his life was about 500 years.

 david choe wrote:

My position on the other thread was always normal size and peaceful and humble in his Alpha stage... why are you saying that I didn't write that... go read it.

I didn't say you didn't write that.

The Alpha stage of his life was 38,000 years! His Omega stage of his life was about 500 years.

You keep saying this. I'm really not sure what you think it proves.

His obsession with the words Alpha and Omega make me think he's read too much Alpha Legion fan fiction and its befuddling his brain.

But you are admitting that he's definitely not normal then right? Also he's definitely not peaceful or humble, even in his "alpha" stage given that your source explicitly states he became a crusader in turbulent times meaning he was more than willing to engage acts in war. He's no Gandhi I'll tell you that.

In the old fluff he is supposed to been several prominent figures in history from Jesus to Hitler.

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:

My position on the other thread was always normal size and peaceful and humble in his Alpha stage... why are you saying that I didn't write that... go read it.

I didn't say you didn't write that.

The Alpha stage of his life was 38,000 years! His Omega stage of his life was about 500 years.

You keep saying this. I'm really not sure what you think it proves.

My mistake. I understand what you ment now.

I am saying that my PO of alpha stage is 90% of his life ...to support my view of why he wanted his golden thrones stage of his final life should represent the majority of his life size or what he start out and stand for. Which was peace and harmony. For man to survive chaos he had to be a tyrant ...he did what he thought best, not what he wanted but a must.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
His obsession with the words Alpha and Omega make me think he's read too much Alpha Legion fan fiction and its befuddling his brain.

But you are admitting that he's definitely not normal then right? Also he's definitely not peaceful or humble, even in his "alpha" stage given that your source explicitly states he became a crusader in turbulent times meaning he was more than willing to engage acts in war. He's no Gandhi I'll tell you that.

Lol alpha and omega are greek letters alpha is first or for beginning and omega is last letter or end. Most people use alpha and omega concept as beginning and end....newbie

He was probably Gandhi, Jesus, and genis khan...

My point was...he was a objective driven and his goal has always been for man to survivor chaos. He wanted peace and progress for man because it was good for man...he only become BAD or tyrant because he must.

We are reading this from out of universe POV, GW is telling us that EMperor was a good humble and peaceful man...must must be a tyrant to United mankind for its to survive...you can't see that?

Thanks for calling me a newbie, sure am new to this stuff aren't I? I hope you caught on that I was being facetious and that I was referring to Alpharius and Omegon given the way you branch off to random tangents. I was joking about how in doing so your attempts to bring up new arguments/claims is like a hydra, for every point we counter two (or more) of you claims take its place.

Again its arguable whether or not he really needed to become "bad" in order to save humanity. There's plenty of cases where you see examples of humanity being able to live pretty well and aware of the threat of chaos, for example the society of the Interex, who was able to do so without the intervention of the Emperor. If anything the vast power he wields probably made it seem like violence was the only foregone conclusion for him to enact his goals. Afer all, if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.

I still fail to see how he was a humble and peaceful man. If he was humble he would have straight up stopped Lorgar and his Colchis' worship of him from the very beginning. It's only when Lorgar's and the Word Bearer's worship of him became a hindrance in the Crusade that he started caring, otherwise he's shown to have turned a blind eye so he could keep their loyalty. If he was peaceful he wouldn't have reduced Monarchia to a ruined hulk of a world just to make a point he could have made peacefully earlier on to begin with Lorgar (and again the wanton destruction of lives suggest that he's anything but peaceful).

The best part is that because of his lack of humanity as shown in these examples, he inadvertently set off the spark that would begin the Heresy. So...no I don't see anything to suggest that GW says he's good, humble or peaceful at all. Grimdark dude. Seriously.

 Grimskul wrote:
Thanks for calling me a newbie, sure am new to this stuff aren't I? I hope you caught on that I was being facetious and that I was referring to Alpharius and Omegon given the way you branch off to random tangents. I was joking about how in doing so your attempts to bring up new arguments/claims is like a hydra, for every point we counter two (or more) of you claims take its place.

Again its arguable whether or not he really needed to become "bad" in order to save humanity. There's plenty of cases where you see examples of humanity being able to live pretty well and aware of the threat of chaos, for example the society of the Interex, who was able to do so without the intervention of the Emperor. If anything the vast power he wields probably made it seem like violence was the only foregone conclusion for him to enact his goals. Afer all, if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.

I still fail to see how he was a humble and peaceful man. If he was humble he would have straight up stopped Lorgar and his Colchis' worship of him from the very beginning. It's only when Lorgar's and the Word Bearer's worship of him became a hindrance in the Crusade that he started caring, otherwise he's shown to have turned a blind eye so he could keep their loyalty. If he was peaceful he wouldn't have reduced Monarchia to a ruined hulk of a world just to make a point he could have made peacefully earlier on to begin with Lorgar (and again the wanton destruction of lives suggest that he's anything but peaceful).

The best part is that because of his lack of humanity as shown in these examples, he inadvertently set off the spark that would begin the Heresy. So...no I don't see anything to suggest that GW says he's good, humble or peaceful at all. Grimdark dude. Seriously.

you keep bringing up his omega stage .....as an example , which I TOLD U were his tyrant stage in his life

Can you not understand the topic?

Learn how to argue my point.

The Emperor was probably Hitler and Churchill, at the same time.

@david choe

No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.

 david choe wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Thanks for calling me a newbie, sure am new to this stuff aren't I? I hope you caught on that I was being facetious and that I was referring to Alpharius and Omegon given the way you branch off to random tangents. I was joking about how in doing so your attempts to bring up new arguments/claims is like a hydra, for every point we counter two (or more) of you claims take its place.

Again its arguable whether or not he really needed to become "bad" in order to save humanity. There's plenty of cases where you see examples of humanity being able to live pretty well and aware of the threat of chaos, for example the society of the Interex, who was able to do so without the intervention of the Emperor. If anything the vast power he wields probably made it seem like violence was the only foregone conclusion for him to enact his goals. Afer all, if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.

I still fail to see how he was a humble and peaceful man. If he was humble he would have straight up stopped Lorgar and his Colchis' worship of him from the very beginning. It's only when Lorgar's and the Word Bearer's worship of him became a hindrance in the Crusade that he started caring, otherwise he's shown to have turned a blind eye so he could keep their loyalty. If he was peaceful he wouldn't have reduced Monarchia to a ruined hulk of a world just to make a point he could have made peacefully earlier on to begin with Lorgar (and again the wanton destruction of lives suggest that he's anything but peaceful).

The best part is that because of his lack of humanity as shown in these examples, he inadvertently set off the spark that would begin the Heresy. So...no I don't see anything to suggest that GW says he's good, humble or peaceful at all. Grimdark dude. Seriously.

you keep bringing up his omega stage .....as an example , which I TOLD U were his tyrant stage in his life

Can you not understand the topic?

Learn how to argue my point.

That's fine, no need to rebuttal my points with those of your own. I'll make it more clear to you.

The reason why I'm pointing out these issues is that this "omega" or tyrant stage as you call it is shown to be unjustified by his handling of Lorgar and other examples of humans living peacefully with xenos like the Interex. It doesn't matter if he's "peaceful" or "humble" earlier on (which again you conveniently ignored insaniak's post about that being a GUISE, as in NOT REAL) as you cannot disconnect this so-called Omega stage from the Alpha Stage of the Emperor. It's not like he created a split personality and became a shell of his former self, made only to propagate himself as a tyrant. No, he made the active decision to commit full time to his campaign of genocide, he's always been a human-supremacist and willing to sacrifice people to further his goals and given that you claim that he was possibly Genghis Khan and other famous warlords, then how exactly is he peaceful? Even in the context of being other potential peaceful figures this just shows he's two-faced and manipulative rather than genuinely humble or subservient to humanity and its more of his attempts to try and mold humanity's path to his liking rather than any real regard for their concerns.

 Manchu wrote:
@david choe

No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.

That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.

Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.

The Emperor's motives are actually the subject of pretty constant debate among fans.

 Grimskul wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Thanks for calling me a newbie, sure am new to this stuff aren't I? I hope you caught on that I was being facetious and that I was referring to Alpharius and Omegon given the way you branch off to random tangents. I was joking about how in doing so your attempts to bring up new arguments/claims is like a hydra, for every point we counter two (or more) of you claims take its place.

Again its arguable whether or not he really needed to become "bad" in order to save humanity. There's plenty of cases where you see examples of humanity being able to live pretty well and aware of the threat of chaos, for example the society of the Interex, who was able to do so without the intervention of the Emperor. If anything the vast power he wields probably made it seem like violence was the only foregone conclusion for him to enact his goals. Afer all, if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.

I still fail to see how he was a humble and peaceful man. If he was humble he would have straight up stopped Lorgar and his Colchis' worship of him from the very beginning. It's only when Lorgar's and the Word Bearer's worship of him became a hindrance in the Crusade that he started caring, otherwise he's shown to have turned a blind eye so he could keep their loyalty. If he was peaceful he wouldn't have reduced Monarchia to a ruined hulk of a world just to make a point he could have made peacefully earlier on to begin with Lorgar (and again the wanton destruction of lives suggest that he's anything but peaceful).

The best part is that because of his lack of humanity as shown in these examples, he inadvertently set off the spark that would begin the Heresy. So...no I don't see anything to suggest that GW says he's good, humble or peaceful at all. Grimdark dude. Seriously.

you keep bringing up his omega stage .....as an example , which I TOLD U were his tyrant stage in his life

Can you not understand the topic?

Learn how to argue my point.

That's fine, no need to rebuttal my points with those of your own. I'll make it more clear to you.

The reason why I'm pointing out these issues is that this "omega" or tyrant stage as you call it is shown to be unjustified by his handling of Lorgar and other examples of humans living peacefully with xenos like the Interex. It doesn't matter if he's "peaceful" or "humble" earlier on (which again you conveniently ignored insaniak's post about that being a GUISE, as in NOT REAL) as you cannot disconnect this so-called Omega stage from the Alpha Stage of the Emperor. It's not like he created a split personality and became a shell of his former self, made only to propagate himself as a tyrant. No, he made the active decision to commit full time to his campaign of genocide, he's always been a human-supremacist and willing to sacrifice people to further his goals and given that you claim that he was possibly Genghis Khan and other famous warlords, then how exactly is he peaceful? Even in the context of being other potential peaceful figures this just shows he's two-faced and manipulative rather than genuinely humble or subservient to humanity and its more of his attempts to try and mold humanity's path to his liking rather than any real regard for their concerns.

We our out of universe audience, we know he did everything from genocide of Jews ( assume he was hitler) because (please this is fiction and not being racist) the Jews might be tainted with chaos...I mean only he knew and us audience knows his true plans was for the survival of mankind. He will kill millions to save billions. He never did "bad" for greed. You must know this. Xenons are the enemy...no matter if they are good...human must ruled and survived..

Was he a tyrant in the in universe...you bet, but why was he a tyrant?

 david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
@david choe

No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.

That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.

Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.

That's the thing though, if you noticed through my examples of how he handled Lorgar and Monarchia...how exactly is wiping out an entire planet devoted to you and your crusade for the cause of the survival of mankind? At most you might say he wanted to dispel religion to weaken the Dark God's hold on the material realm but we can already see that ironically faith is one of the few things that are shown to be the defences against the Warp in 40K, with Sisters of Battle or other Imperial Saints. Similarly, keeping people in the dark about the nature of his Crusade and its brutal nature simply allowed the Chaos Gods to swoop in unopposed and subvert it against him. Now mankind is stagnating and dying a slow death with the Imperium...how exactly is this the betterment of mankind? Do you not realize the Imperium is a dystopian society? Grimdark man, grimdark.

We our out of universe audience, we know he did everything from genocide of Jews ( assume he was hitler) because (please this is fiction and not being racist) the Jews might be tainted with chaos...I mean only he knew and us audience knows his true plans was for the survival of mankind. He will kill millions to save billions. He never did "bad" for greed. You must know this. Xenons are the enemy...no matter if they are good...human must ruled and survived..

Was he a tyrant in the in universe...you bet, but why was he a tyrant?

Um...wow. Just the fact that you had to further Godwin the thread with suggesting the Emperor as Hitler had to exterminate the Jews because they were tainted with Chaos is just.....wow. I'm sorry but this is where I draw the line. This conversation is going nowhere.

 david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
@david choe

No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.

That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.

Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.

Did he? Or was that simply so he could have the best-possible star-spanning empire to rule over? Did he destroy religions because he didn't like them... or to pave the way for his own ascension to the only god that matters to Humanity? Given the results of the Heresy... is the state of the galaxy in M40 really the best possible results? What if, instead, the Great Four had divided the galaxy amongst them, four mini-empires, each sworn to a patron Chaos God. Certainly, there would be conflict between these four... but can we say, with certainty, that the people would have been worse off than they are in the Imperium?

Of course, we'd like to think that they would be (and, granted, a lot of the ways in which Chaos is depicted suggest they would be) but, since that is not how the history of 40K shook out, we can only speculate.

 Grimskul wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
@david choe

No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.

That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.

Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.

That's the thing though, if you noticed through my examples of how he handled Lorgar and Monarchia...how exactly is wiping out an entire planet devoted to you and your crusade for the cause of the survival of mankind? At most you might say he wanted to dispel religion to weaken the Dark God's hold on the material realm but we can already see that ironically faith is one of the few things that are shown to be the defences against the Warp in 40K, with Sisters of Battle or other Imperial Saints. Similarly, keeping people in the dark about the nature of his Crusade and its brutal nature simply allowed the Chaos Gods to swoop in unopposed and subvert it against him. Now mankind is stagnating and dying a slow death with the Imperium...how exactly is this the betterment of mankind? Do you not realize the Imperium is a dystopian society? Grimdark man, grimdark.

We our out of universe audience, we know he did everything from genocide of Jews ( assume he was hitler) because (please this is fiction and not being racist) the Jews might be tainted with chaos...I mean only he knew and us audience knows his true plans was for the survival of mankind. He will kill millions to save billions. He never did "bad" for greed. You must know this. Xenons are the enemy...no matter if they are good...human must ruled and survived..

Was he a tyrant in the in universe...you bet, but why was he a tyrant?

Um...wow. Just the fact that you had to further Godwin the thread with suggesting the Emperor as Hitler had to exterminate the Jews because they were tainted with Chaos is just.....wow. I'm sorry but this is where I draw the line. This conversation is going nowhere.

Wow. Absolute trainwreck. This thread is a lot like the Alpha legion or "which Primarch is best," threads because of fluff being mixed with personal opinions.

To be on topic, I still believe in the Star Child theory. But I also believe in Websters dictionary and what the word guise means. (Really good point Insaniak.)

 Stormwall wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
@david choe

No one is obliged to discuss the topic according to your terms. Some people may not find your theory very compelling. For example, the text explicitly says the Emperor assumed "humble" personas in some instances during the period you claim he always acted in a humble way. Similarly, the text also explicitly says that during the same period, by your reckoning when he was always acting in a peaceful way, he was a crusader.

That is fine....but as an out of universe audience .we know he did everything for the betterment of mankind! We are not the in universe people who saw him killed billions...we saw him as killing billions to save sextillion. You got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

my point was...he did everything for mankind ...it wasn't for pride, greed, or wealth. He could of just enjoy life and just cruse along and not get envolved...he did .... He did it for survival of mankind.

Do you think he was acting humble so he can leech off their wealth for fun? If he was acting...he did it for a cause....which was ...again...survival of mankind against Chaos.

That's the thing though, if you noticed through my examples of how he handled Lorgar and Monarchia...how exactly is wiping out an entire planet devoted to you and your crusade for the cause of the survival of mankind? At most you might say he wanted to dispel religion to weaken the Dark God's hold on the material realm but we can already see that ironically faith is one of the few things that are shown to be the defences against the Warp in 40K, with Sisters of Battle or other Imperial Saints. Similarly, keeping people in the dark about the nature of his Crusade and its brutal nature simply allowed the Chaos Gods to swoop in unopposed and subvert it against him. Now mankind is stagnating and dying a slow death with the Imperium...how exactly is this the betterment of mankind? Do you not realize the Imperium is a dystopian society? Grimdark man, grimdark.

We our out of universe audience, we know he did everything from genocide of Jews ( assume he was hitler) because (please this is fiction and not being racist) the Jews might be tainted with chaos...I mean only he knew and us audience knows his true plans was for the survival of mankind. He will kill millions to save billions. He never did "bad" for greed. You must know this. Xenons are the enemy...no matter if they are good...human must ruled and survived..

Was he a tyrant in the in universe...you bet, but why was he a tyrant?

Um...wow. Just the fact that you had to further Godwin the thread with suggesting the Emperor as Hitler had to exterminate the Jews because they were tainted with Chaos is just.....wow. I'm sorry but this is where I draw the line. This conversation is going nowhere.

Wow. Absolute trainwreck. This thread is a lot like the Alpha legion or "which Primarch is best," threads because of fluff being mixed with personal opinions.

Juuuuuust a little. When you have to resort to using Hitler exterminating the Jews as an example of the ends justify the means, you know something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.