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If Ahiriman shows up it will be complete and a random mod will ascend to a higher plane.

Ahem.

It is a shame you quoted me after I edited in my view on the subject.

No worries, I managed to read it. I have no trouble with the Star Child Theory as its at least in the realm of plausibility and interesting as a potential point of plot progression. It's just his ideas about an "alpha" and "omega" Emperor are so artificially structured and unfounded that I can't take his proposals seriously. Doesn't help that he can't seem to make his points very clear without going around in circles.

Oh agreed absolutely Grimskul.. It reads to me like a fan fic. It has outdated fluff, circle logic, and quotes without context. I would love to see the Big E as humble like the OP says but, golden armor and physic powers make you appear godlike haha. (Then he gets upset when people worship him.) Another part that doesn't match up is his humanity. If he had fatherly empathy and had raised his god-like children right then the HH wouldn't of happened. (Maybe spank Rowboat so he wouldn't be such a humble brag. Give Magnus a motorcycle so he quits thumping books so much which would have curbed the whole edgy sorcery thing. (If you get the refrence you get a cookie.))

Totally unrelated but I do call myself out when I am a hypocrite, since we are on the subject of fluff/fan theory/speculation...

Spoilered due to silliness/relevance to 40k being lacking.

 Stormwall wrote:
Oh agreed absolutely Grimskul.. It reads to me like a fan fic. It has outdated fluff, circle logic, and quotes without context. I would love to see the Big E as humble like the OP says but, golden armor and physic powers make you appear godlike haha. (Then he gets upset when people worship him.) Another part that doesn't match up is his humanity. If he had fatherly empathy and had raised his god-like children right then the HH wouldn't of happened. (Maybe spank Rowboat so he wouldn't be such a humble brag. Give Magnus a motorcycle so he quits thumping books so much. (If you get the refrence you get a cookie.))

Totally unrelated but...

(I do feel a bit of irony because what I just wrote makes me a huge hypocrite as I am currently writing a humor/troll theory to convince people on bungie.net that the Darkness in Destiny is grape kool-aid and the Traveller is a giant broken pitcher of lemonade kool-aid (The entire plot being their battle over which flavor has more worship/following/power.) Sometimes when making theories you know it isn't true but, you as the author act like it is infallible.)

Ha! That's hilarious! At least what you wrote seems entertaining, and fairly obvious towards its good natured humour which you're trying to pull off (though inevitably there will be those who take a little too seriously). Don't forget to add that classic line though: "That Kool-Aid came from the Moon". Oh Dinkle-bot.

@Grimskul

"That's the thing though, if you noticed through my examples of how he handled Lorgar and Monarchia...how exactly is wiping out an entire planet devoted to you and your crusade for the cause of the survival of mankind? At most you might say he wanted to dispel religion to weaken the Dark God's hold on the material realm but we can already see that ironically faith is one of the few things that are shown to be the defences against the Warp in 40K, with Sisters of Battle or other Imperial Saints. Similarly, keeping people in the dark about the nature of his Crusade and its brutal nature simply allowed the Chaos Gods to swoop in unopposed and subvert it against him. Now mankind is stagnating and dying a slow death with the Imperium...how exactly is this the betterment of mankind? Do you not realize the Imperium is a dystopian society? Grimdark man, grim dark."

Emperor was not Omnipotence... he assume what he did was the best course of action for his cause. You got to understand this .... most of us with his power will choose to hide and just enjoy easy life ... with richness and power... never fight anything. He risk his life for mankind when he didn't have to.



"Um...wow. Just the fact that you had to further Godwin the thread with suggesting the Emperor as Hitler had to exterminate the Jews because they were tainted with Chaos is just.....wow. I'm sorry but this is where I draw the line. This conversation is going nowhere."

It was an example. Any MOD or person who saw my statement must know that with in the context... it was to make a point. I could have use Genghis Khan... when he slaughter the (I forgot which city) city in China....he murdered almost the whole city and you can smell the human fat as the city burned. If Emperor was GK, he did it because it was tainted with Chaos or something... not to be mean. That was my point. If Hitler was the Emperor... he did it for his cause.. .not for Aryan supremacist was my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Psinesis


"Did he? Or was that simply so he could have the best-possible star-spanning empire to rule over? Did he destroy religions because he didn't like them... or to pave the way for his own ascension to the only god that matters to Humanity? Given the results of the Heresy... is the state of the galaxy in M40 really the best possible results? What if, instead, the Great Four had divided the galaxy amongst them, four mini-empires, each sworn to a patron Chaos God. Certainly, there would be conflict between these four... but can we say, with certainty, that the people would have been worse off than they are in the Imperium?

Of course, we'd like to think that they would be (and, granted, a lot of the ways in which Chaos is depicted suggest they would be) but, since that is not how the history of 40K shook out, we can only speculate.

He didn't wipe out a whole planet, one city was destroyed and the people were ordered to leave the city.

Tone back on the the almighty i know it all and don't be so condescending please.

The thing is we don't know why The Emperor (if he was Hitler) killed the Jews, maybe that was the only way the solve a nexus in the time line to create the modern world.

My idea is by 30k the Emperor was so powerful that he lost his touch with humanity and is as inhuman as the cahos gods he tries to fight.

Edited by Manchu - Rule Number One is Be Polite

Well if you read the last line of The Emperor and Human History...
"....steering the human race along a narrow survival path that he alone could see."
Again, this is out of universe statement. His goal was for human survival. He did what HE THINK was the best and again, he wasn't Omnipotence.

I don't think anyone is arguing that point... but the Great Crusade was, from its outset, a means to an end, and he knew it would be bloody and violent. He basically gave other Human worlds (like the Interex) the option to swear fealty to him, or die.

Even before the Great Crusade, Humanity had a bunch of stuff happen to it, such as the Age of Strife and the War of the Iron Men. Meanwhile, the Emperor was gearing up to beat the crap out of everyone else left on the hell-hole that was Earth.

And, as it so happens, the one path to freedom from the Chaos Gods seems to have the Emperor as the sole focus of humanity's worship and veneration. If we are to take this statement as truth, that he alone knew how to save Mankind from Chaos, then everything that has makes 40K the grimdark dystopian hellhole that it is has been pretty much exactly as he planned.

In which case... the Emperor is not a nice guy. Not even a little bit. He is a theocrat of the worst kind.

I think we ought to drop this issue about Hitler and the Jews. That topic is complete unsuited to a 40k Background discussion forum. Thanks.

We have NEW information on the Emperor now,that is worth discussing.

In vengeful Spirit we learn that during the age of strife, he enters the warp, and emerges having gained much power, after to what his perspective is a lifetime of struggle. (It is assumed he made a pact with the chaos gods, ot possible some other warp entity, but let's not worry about that now. )


The thing is, if the emperor gained power during the age of strife (he probably wasn't called the emperor then either ), this changes the established story, as assumedly he was weaker before then. Possibly even just a particularly psychic perpetual.

His noted achievements before unification are pretty much restricted to imprisoning a shard of the void dragon on Mars... so he certainly doesn't have to be atributed to every dictator under the sun.

With this new fact, we can attribute the beginnings of his plan to take over the galaxy aa mid age of strife, and can attribute his driving motive as trying to save humanity by making sure the age of strife doesn't happen again.

Given that the HH novels are, largely, drek, I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into them.

After all, if we take the story of Saint George and the Dragon as the Emperor facing the Void Dragon, then the Emperor managed to do this while wearing iron armor, wielding an iron sword, whatever psychic powers he had at the time, and then, after defeating the Star-God, dragged it to Mars on a horse.

That's no "Regular Joe" feat. That's even better than anything Hercules supposedly did.

Ok... if we are disregarding modern canon because of artistic temperament.. then I am out.


I think it is more likely that the shard of the void dragon was moved to mars at a later date.

There's no such thing as "canon" in 40K. You would do well to disabuse yourself of the notion. What there is is scores and scores of publications that all offer variant viewpoints on the setting and those within the setting. Any one of them could be correct. Or they might all be wrong.

Maybe they're going for a 'if the Alpha Legion wrote the heresy' feel...

 Psienesis wrote:

I don't think anyone is arguing that point... but the Great Crusade was, from its outset, a means to an end, and he knew it would be bloody and violent. He basically gave other Human worlds (like the Interex) the option to swear fealty to him, or die.

Even before the Great Crusade, Humanity had a bunch of stuff happen to it, such as the Age of Strife and the War of the Iron Men. Meanwhile, the Emperor was gearing up to beat the crap out of everyone else left on the hell-hole that was Earth.

And, as it so happens, the one path to freedom from the Chaos Gods seems to have the Emperor as the sole focus of humanity's worship and veneration. If we are to take this statement as truth, that he alone knew how to save Mankind from Chaos, then everything that has makes 40K the grimdark dystopian hellhole that it is has been pretty much exactly as he planned.

In which case... the Emperor is not a nice guy. Not even a little bit. He is a theocrat of the worst kind.

I'm learning how to copy quote... bear with me. I hope i got yours right.

OK... I think we all can agree from the 8,000BC to 1 AD... The Emperor (according to the story that I posted) taught man about science, technology, and PEACE... he wanted peace and progress for man. He might play a warrior here and there to set man on the right path.

From there on, he started to get more brutal with because man were falling from his path.

Then toward the end when he became know as the Emperor... this was his last stance.. he realize that he needed to do this for the future of mankind.

The great crusade were no different than any other RL wars on earth... swear to me or die... If he were Cesare, Khan, or any other powerful figure... it was all the same thing. The scale was just much bigger.

I know sometime it is hard for some to understand that this game reflect on real life past history... and it is a bit no PC to talk about this.. .but lets just remember the context of this...

If he was Mao, Stalin, Hitler, or any great tyrant ... he killed for the betterment of mankind and not what our RL history taught us. Only he knew that and he presented to be otherwise for his secret agenda.

I'm not sure what you are saying .. toward the last statement. I mean it is always better to be free from Chaos and live under the Emperor is my PO. Emperor end game was to destroyed Chaos and for Man to be free from Chaos. If he needed to be a god to do this, he will be a god. Once he achieve this goal ... I don't know what he will do next. But his goal is not personal gain...it was to destroyed Chaos. Chaos eat souls and it is not harmony with the Warp. Remember the Warp was not a hell hole that became... it was peaceful when the Shamans were around... Life was in balance or circle of life. Chaos destroyed that ...

Yeah it sucks to have to live under this War vs. Chaos... but it is the long war in galactic scale. You can't view this as it has been 20,000 years and E was a tyrant. You have to view this war as the final war of all wars. If Chaos wins.. the material realm is hell. If Emperor wins... Warp returns to normal as circle of life as he wanted and man can evolved to the next stage of evolution under his guide.

OK... I think we all can agree from the 8,000BC to 1 AD... The Emperor (according to the story that I posted) taught man about science, technology, and PEACE... he wanted peace and progress for man. He might play a warrior here and there to set man on the right path.

So... again, it's a "do as I say, or else" situation. He has his vision for what is the "right path", and he beats the crap out of anyone who disagrees.

What the Emperor was doing might have been necessary (from his point of view), but literally nothing about him says "nice guy". If the end of Chaos was what he was going for, then the whole idea of the Imperial Truth is pure, unadulterated grox-drek, because you cannot have Science if you do not account for chaos (we even have real-life Chaos Theory, Chaos Mathematics, and similar fields of study... in 40K, they just take on much more sinister meanings).

So, unless the Emperor was planning on stunting scientific growth at a certain point (before certain now-theoretical fields of study could come about), and stunting it in such a way that there was no possible way for Mankind to delve into these "forbidden subjects", then his plan was destined to fail.

Unless, of course, his actual plan was to become the God-Emperor of Mankind and exist in the Warp as a sort of Warp God of Order. In which case, his plan was near-flawless. However, it makes him a theocrat of the worst sort.

Incidentally, I'm not new to 40K. I've been reading these books and playing this game since it was called Rogue Trader, with some occasional "edition breaks" when RL demanded more of my time than I could give to 40K.

I'm not sure what you are saying .. toward the last statement. I mean it is always better to be free from Chaos and live under the Emperor is my PO. Emperor end game was to destroyed Chaos and for Man to be free from Chaos. If he needed to be a god to do this, he will be a god. Once he achieve this goal ... I don't know what he will do next. But his goal is not personal gain...it was to destroyed Chaos. Chaos eat souls and it is not harmony with the Warp. Remember the Warp was not a hell hole that became... it was peaceful when the Shamans were around... Life was in balance or circle of life. Chaos destroyed that ...

Read the quote I have as my signature. This is why, if what you say is true, the Emperor's "end goal" is grox-gak. He has "saved" Humanity... and put them in a world where the only real question, every morning of every day, is "wouldn't it have been better to die?"

 Psienesis wrote:


So... again, it's a "do as I say, or else" situation. He has his vision for what is the "right path", and he beats the crap out of anyone who disagrees.

What the Emperor was doing might have been necessary (from his point of view), but literally nothing about him says "nice guy". If the end of Chaos was what he was going for, then the whole idea of the Imperial Truth is pure, unadulterated grox-drek, because you cannot have Science if you do not account for chaos (we even have real-life Chaos Theory, Chaos Mathematics, and similar fields of study... in 40K, they just take on much more sinister meanings).

What are you talking about... Imperial Truth is not BS...science and Chaos has nothing to do with each other. World religions were BS because none of world religions were real and there were no God or Allah or heaven or hell or any of that stuff in 40K(I'm staying away from RL)... He wanted man to use real science and Man should ruled the galaxy and not other xenons. That is the IT. Obey his decree or die. It is his right path. This is not "nice guy" but a Right guy if you know what I mean. This was his final solution. He can't deal with the past 20,000 years of this religion and that religion anymore because there were all feeding Chaos and none of them were real. He can't be a "nice Guy" anymore. This is Omega stage like I've stated.

So, unless the Emperor was planning on stunting scientific growth at a certain point (before certain now-theoretical fields of study could come about), and stunting it in such a way that there was no possible way for Mankind to delve into these "forbidden subjects", then his plan was destined to fail.

Unless, of course, his actual plan was to become the God-Emperor of Mankind and exist in the Warp as a sort of Warp God of Order. In which case, his plan was near-flawless. However, it makes him a theocrat of the worst sort.

I think you are confusing the word of Chaos gods to science chaos theory. It has nothing to do with each other but the name. I don't understand why Imperial Truth is stunting science? The Imperial truth was... no more religion and only science. No more contact with any xenos. NO AI because of man of Iron. Kill all aliens. Do not worship Emperor as a god. He was all science.

Incidentally, I'm not new to 40K. I've been reading these books and playing this game since it was called Rogue Trader, with some occasional "edition breaks" when RL demanded more of my time than I could give to 40K.

good for you. So have I.

Read the quote I have as my signature. This is why, if what you say is true, the Emperor's "end goal" is grox-gak. He has "saved" Humanity... and put them in a world where the only real question, every morning of every day, is "wouldn't it have been better to die?"

Well that is your PO and could be true if you view are species in 1,000 years not in 100,000 years.

Point again. Shaman were around for millions or million years and the warp was peaceful for millions of years. It has only been about 50,000 years or so when Shaman were start to be eaten by Chaos and they had to become the Emperor because Shaman and human would have all die off by Chaos.

Go reread about Imperial Truth again. His goal was to stop Chaos and for man to progress with science. He failed because of Horus heresy. IF there were no HH... Emperor would have create a new golden age for human... no religion. better technology. Human would rule the galaxy and all aliens would be dead.Emperor didn't want to oppress human.. he want them to thrive and survive.

Your quote-block there is fethed up but, I'll try to parse that out...

Science and Chaos are not at all separate things. Of course, the Warp doesn't actually exist, but take this real-world field of study:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

... and 40K it up a bit, and you can see why a "pure science" theorem is fethed from the get-go.

I know what the Imperial Truth is, and I know that it's a deeply, deeply flawed belief. Chaos exists in all things. Science exists to investigate the unknown. The Warp exists. It is unknown. Residing in the Warp is a being who is a God of Knowledge and Mysteries. The pursuit of knowledge for its own sake is the domain of Tzeentch... the pursuit of knowledge to perfect an art is the domain of Slaanesh. You can't have science without Chaos.

Shamans are not "millions and millions" of years old. By the time M40 rolls around, Homo Sapiens sapiens isn't even a million years old yet. In fact, it wouldn't even be 500,000 years old yet. It'd be edging around half that.

Mankind needs gods, whether it calls them "God" or "String Theory". It needs to believe in things greater than itself as the driving force of the universe. There were people worshipping the Emperor as a god right there on Terra during his lifetime, during the Crusade. He did nothing to discourage them from this action. I think the Imperial Truth was another guise... the way a man will feign humility while receiving the highest of honors, because he knows that his legend will only grow in the telling.

 Psienesis wrote:

OK... I think we all can agree from the 8,000BC to 1 AD... The Emperor (according to the story that I posted) taught man about science, technology, and PEACE... he wanted peace and progress for man. He might play a warrior here and there to set man on the right path.

So... again, it's a "do as I say, or else" situation. He has his vision for what is the "right path", and he beats the crap out of anyone who disagrees.

What the Emperor was doing might have been necessary (from his point of view), but literally nothing about him says "nice guy". If the end of Chaos was what he was going for, then the whole idea of the Imperial Truth is pure, unadulterated grox-drek, because you cannot have Science if you do not account for chaos (we even have real-life Chaos Theory, Chaos Mathematics, and similar fields of study... in 40K, they just take on much more sinister meanings).

So, unless the Emperor was planning on stunting scientific growth at a certain point (before certain now-theoretical fields of study could come about), and stunting it in such a way that there was no possible way for Mankind to delve into these "forbidden subjects", then his plan was destined to fail.

Unless, of course, his actual plan was to become the God-Emperor of Mankind and exist in the Warp as a sort of Warp God of Order. In which case, his plan was near-flawless. However, it makes him a theocrat of the worst sort.

Incidentally, I'm not new to 40K. I've been reading these books and playing this game since it was called Rogue Trader, with some occasional "edition breaks" when RL demanded more of my time than I could give to 40K.

I'm not sure what you are saying .. toward the last statement. I mean it is always better to be free from Chaos and live under the Emperor is my PO. Emperor end game was to destroyed Chaos and for Man to be free from Chaos. If he needed to be a god to do this, he will be a god. Once he achieve this goal ... I don't know what he will do next. But his goal is not personal gain...it was to destroyed Chaos. Chaos eat souls and it is not harmony with the Warp. Remember the Warp was not a hell hole that became... it was peaceful when the Shamans were around... Life was in balance or circle of life. Chaos destroyed that ...

Read the quote I have as my signature. This is why, if what you say is true, the Emperor's "end goal" is grox-gak. He has "saved" Humanity... and put them in a world where the only real question, every morning of every day, is "wouldn't it have been better to die?"

You need to read Imperial Truth again.
From my memory:
1 - No more aliens, because they will kill you or cheat you… bad for you. Which is true.
2 - No AI because of the Iron Man
3 - No religion because all religions were feeding Chaos and all the old world gods or God where his creation and none of them exist.
4 - Focus on Science because it is the truth. BUT NO AI

So what are you talking about his Imperial truth was stunting science.

The Emperor is also another one of his Guise too you know. He was a great man with no name and all his past characters were all guise. Nobody knows his true identity except us reader. He was a normal man born with 1000s of shaman souls formed into him.

So he tried the “peaceful" ways for about 38,000 years and all he got were Age of strife and Iron Men who almost killed all human. His final solution was to be a new guise as the Emperor. The ruthless 10 feet tall man with halo. He needed people to see him as a powerful galactic warrior. I don’t know why you guys can’t see the Emperor as another guise of his. This is not his true form. He has no true form. Unless what he was born as … if you want to call it that.

This new Guise as the Emperor was join me or die. Final solution. The Imperial Truth.

His goal was the same. Defeat Chaos. Man rule the universe and thrive. Who knows.. if his plan comes true.. and Man are the only species in the galaxy and the Warp has returned to how it was a million years ago which was peaceful and balance with harmony, he would take another guise and do other things.. he might not stay as the Emperor.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Your quote-block there is fethed up but, I'll try to parse that out...

Science and Chaos are not at all separate things. Of course, the Warp doesn't actually exist, but take this real-world field of study:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

... and 40K it up a bit, and you can see why a "pure science" theorem is fethed from the get-go.

I know what the Imperial Truth is, and I know that it's a deeply, deeply flawed belief. Chaos exists in all things. Science exists to investigate the unknown. The Warp exists. It is unknown. Residing in the Warp is a being who is a God of Knowledge and Mysteries. The pursuit of knowledge for its own sake is the domain of Tzeentch... the pursuit of knowledge to perfect an art is the domain of Slaanesh. You can't have science without Chaos.

Shamans are not "millions and millions" of years old. By the time M40 rolls around, Homo Sapiens sapiens isn't even a million years old yet. In fact, it wouldn't even be 500,000 years old yet. It'd be edging around half that.

Mankind needs gods, whether it calls them "God" or "String Theory". It needs to believe in things greater than itself as the driving force of the universe. There were people worshipping the Emperor as a god right there on Terra during his lifetime, during the Crusade. He did nothing to discourage them from this action. I think the Imperial Truth was another guise... the way a man will feign humility while receiving the highest of honors, because he knows that his legend will only grow in the telling.

1 - Explain how Chaos theory (math) ... it is not tangible...it is a formula or math... it has nothing with Chaos gods or Warp. Please explain.

2 - The Warp was a natural universe in the beginning. It had psychics force from all life from plants to animals… intelligent animals like human has more energies in the warp. It was still all balance. Man was the problem. Man created the chaos gods. The warp is not a place for knowledge and all that … it was none of that. Man corrupt it as we evolved.

3 - Shaman were around before human. The shaman have been around for millions of years and when they die…they go to the warp to be reincarnated … Then man was around… don’t know when… but I would guess 100,000 BC, Chaos gods start to appear and start eating the soul of the shaman and they do not get to be reincarnated or they come back weak something like that. So by around 8,000BC they realize that they can only have about 1 or 2 more reincarnation before Chaos eat them forever… so they choose to commit suicide and form one soul and this soul is immortal and never have to die to be reincarnated. This soul is what we call Emperor.

So yes… Shaman were around for millions of years.

I am sure some people were worshiping him during the crusade… but his decree of Imperial Truth didn’t want that. I mean.. he was fighting 1000s worlds… and doing all kinds of projects… worshiping him is not that important. I’m sure people were arrested and all that… but you are nit picking an empire of 1000s of world.

You can't just focus on science while ignoring the Warp and Chaos. It's like if we focused on science today but ignored something fundamental like gravity. You have to factor it in or you're using science but with only half the information.

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't just focus on science while ignoring the Warp and Chaos. It's like if we focused on science today but ignored something fundamental like gravity. You have to factor it in or you're using science but with only half the information.

explain to me about science and the warp... how is it connected ... more importantly how science is connected to the chaos gods.

Because you need to factor it in to any kind of science you do. Because it's there, and because it can and will mess with experiments, data etc. It's like... Doing an experiment that requires precision, in a tornado, and not factoring in the tornado. You aren't gonna get any meaningful data that way, like you wouldn't doing science in 40k without factoring in the Warp. You have to take it into account, you can't just pretend it's not there.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Because you need to factor it in to any kind of science you do. Because it's there, and because it can and will mess with experiments, data etc. It's like... Doing an experiment that requires precision, in a tornado, and not factoring in the tornado. You aren't gonna get any meaningful data that way, like you wouldn't doing science in 40k without factoring in the Warp. You have to take it into account, you can't just pretend it's not there.

are you kidding me? You think the word Chaos in a math problem is the same as chaos god or power of the warp? WTF? You think our real world math problem is being effected by fiction warp gods or another dimension?

Seriously I don't think that is what you mean.. so explain again so we all can understand.

Guys ... am I the only one with my mouth open right now?????

Thought I'd dunk my head in here as I love talking about the Emperor's early life and the WH40K universe pre-heresy.

Read a few posts and nope, swimming back to shore!

I'm not talking about our science now, I mean science if the Warp was real. You would have to take it into account. It's just another aspect that you'd need to factor in to any science, like Gravity or Relativity or Thermodynamics. I don't really get what you aren't getting.

By ignoring chaos you stunt science because you're ignoring half of the laws of the universe, essentially. You aren't going to progress much ignoring something big like the Warp.

 david choe wrote:

Seriously I don't think that is what you mean.. so explain again so we all can understand.

Guys ... am I the only one with my mouth open right now?????

You 'seriously' need to dial it down a notch if you want this discussion to continue. You're discussing a fictional setting for a game of toy soldiers. The continual hystrionics every time someone disagrees with you or says something you don't understand are not productive.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm not talking about our science now, I mean science if the Warp was real. You would have to take it into account. It's just another aspect that you'd need to factor in to any science, like Gravity or Relativity or Thermodynamics. I don't really get what you aren't getting.

By ignoring chaos you stunt science because you're ignoring half of the laws of the universe, essentially. You aren't going to progress much ignoring something big like the Warp. [/quote



I think you are confusing the warp with all the progress by man. Did all the tech of dark age of technology have anything to do with the warp? I still think you think chaos theory in real life have something to do with a game....which is really funny.

Who is ignoring the warp...how do you think those ship travel and who build them?

The warp and web way that the emperor was building,,,,he must have some scientist who understand about the warp. The warp study could be top scientist stuff...I mean seriously...how many of you study astrophysics...you think normal people woul want to study the warp for fun? If you want to study warp...to be part of his team...I am sure if you are good...he will let you.

The problem with the Emperor is that he is simply a plot mechanic to facilitate the Horus Heresy. Everything written about him has to paint him in such a horrible picture of a leader as to make the Horus Heresy make sense.

On one hand you have the tyrant of humanity that was stupid enough to let all the things compound that needed to for the Heresy to happen, and then on the other hand you have all these writers painting the Emperor as this golden pillar of humanity, leading them into a bright future. Which of course if he was all that wise and psychically powerful, about 90% of the causes of the Heresy should have been seen by him from a freaking mile off.

I mean good god even the stupidest person should have been able to see how treating Magnus would end up. You create one of the greatest psychic minds ever, but then ban them from using that power under pain of death?

The Emperor is the stupidest genius there ever was.

I think the greatest secret about the Emperor is that such an unnaturally long life probably drove him insane, making all his actions around the Heresy make sense.

To be fair he gave Magnus a chance, it's not like he banned Psykers from the start. Magnus didn't heed his or anyone's warnings and went too far with his powers, because he thought he new best.

Not that the Emperor handled it well, he should've just explained Chaos and the Warp from the start.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The problem with the Emperor is that he is simply a plot mechanic to facilitate the Horus Heresy. Everything written about him has to paint him in such a horrible picture of a leader as to make the Horus Heresy make sense.

On one hand you have the tyrant of humanity that was stupid enough to let all the things compound that needed to for the Heresy to happen, and then on the other hand you have all these writers painting the Emperor as this golden pillar of humanity, leading them into a bright future. Which of course if he was all that wise and psychically powerful, about 90% of the causes of the Heresy should have been seen by him from a freaking mile off.

I mean good god even the stupidest person should have been able to see how treating Magnus would end up. You create one of the greatest psychic minds ever, but then ban them from using that power under pain of death?

The Emperor is the stupidest genius there ever was.

I think the greatest secret about the Emperor is that such an unnaturally long life probably drove him insane, making all his actions around the Heresy make sense.

Lol...well yeah he is a stupid genius...he is fighting the four stooges of idiots...it all balanced out.