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The Chaos gods are not idiots. They don't 'think' like we do, we have no comprehension of what they are or how they think, they are embodiments of emotions and cannot be idiots because they don't work like we do.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Chaos gods are not idiots. They don't 'think' like we do, we have no comprehension of what they are or how they think, they are embodiments of emotions and cannot be idiots because they don't work like we do.

Ok whatever....let me get back to you on this after I figure out how Chaos theory will affect the weather tomorrow...I heard Tzeentch was feeling a bit stormy...

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Chaos gods are not idiots. They don't 'think' like we do, we have no comprehension of what they are or how they think, they are embodiments of emotions and cannot be idiots because they don't work like we do.

Ok whatever....let me get back to you on this after I figure out how Chaos theory will affect the weather tomorrow...I heard Tzeentch was feeling a bit stormy...

I wasn't talking about chaos theory before. I know FA about Chaos Theory. But good one way to strawman and ignore my point.

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
"Many of the guises he adopted were HUMBLE, ...."

guise
/ɡʌɪz/

noun: guise; plural noun: guises

an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.

The 10ft tall bronze man with a halo is also a guise of his too. He is the new man who was born of normal parents with thousands of shaman souls. His true form is unknow or if he even has one. He has always picked a form that is best for the time.i am sure he thought that this was just another one of his guise that he is stuck with for a few hundred years...just like the thousands in his past.

 david choe wrote:
The 10ft tall bronze man with a halo is also a guise of his too.

Is it? Where is that pointed out?

He is the new man who was born of normal parents with thousands of shaman souls.

And? I don't look exactly the same as I did when I was younger either, and that's even without the addition of awesome cosmic power.



I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here. Pointing out that his appearance after becoming Emperor may be an illusion is in no way a counter to the idea that his appearance before becoming Emperor was an illusion...

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:

And? I don't look exactly the same as I did when I was younger either, and that's even without the addition of awesome cosmic power.



I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here. Pointing out that his appearance after becoming Emperor may be an illusion is in no way a counter to the idea that his appearance before becoming Emperor was an illusion...

The point is he has no true form and any form he choose is as valid....Example...when he was,,, say... JFK or any people from the past.... he choose that for his mission. JFK form was a good form to be the President of USA , etc...

The 10ft giant with a halo is a good form as an Emperor too. Remember, just because we call him the Emperor doesn't me he is the Emperor....He was the NEW MAN. You think that 10ft is all he can be? Can't he be 20ft? I'm sure he can.

Seriously... if you want to take just the height average of his life time ... you would end up with about 6 to 7 feet. His form that he choose to walk the earth was 90% of his life was normal man size. The Emperor guise was about 1 to 2 percent of his long life.

His real true form is that of his birth ...it you want to call it that.


Insaniak wrote:
"Is it? Where is that pointed out?"




It wasn't pointed out, but where did it say that this is his true form? The pattern of his life seems to suggest that he keep changing ...you just assume that his Omega form is his true form. For all we know ...once Imperium is set up and Chaos is defeated ... he might just left and disappear and walk among his new galaxy of xenos and Chaos free... and get back to helping people just like his humble beginning.

His mission is accomplished.

 david choe wrote:
The point is he has no true form and any form he choose is as valid.

Except that this has no basis in the actual fluff.


We don't know, because the fluff never says, whether the forms that he takes on are actual transformations or just illusion. Although as I pointed out before, at least one story in the Horus Heresy series suggests the latter, and that, at least by that point in his life, he actually was rather large.


Anything more than that at this stage is just baseless supposition.

Seriously... if you want to take just the height average of his life time ...

Why would you want to do that?

And how? You're 'he was 6 foot tall while he was wandering the earth' is something that you made up. The fluff that you have referenced never mentions his height.

It wasn't pointed out, but where did it say that this is his true form?

It didn't.

That's the whole point.

You have made assumptions about his appearance that have no basis in the actual fluff.

Then My guess is as good as yours.

But you keep saying it is an illusion... how do you know that the Emperor is not an illusion. He could be a large fat Turkish ugly man as his true form and choose the Emperor as his guise.

If you want to count the average height of his "Illusion" then the average "Illusion" size is man size.

It would be silly to assume that from 8,000BC to at least 2,000 AD he was a giant size man. Seriously please don't even argue this point.

You also made an assumption that the Emperor is his true form. Or something large because of the fluff you stated.

Even the fluff you stated might be because he was in Illusion of Emperor size.. then cover that illusion of man size and didn't remove Emperor size...lol. I mean...it could be anything.

Like I stated before.. in the end he could just be a giant fat ugly turkish man behind it all.

 david choe wrote:
But you keep saying it is an illusion... how do you know that the Emperor is not an illusion. He could be a large fat Turkish ugly man as his true form and choose the Emperor as his guise.

Yes, now you're getting it.

If you want to count the average height of his "Illusion" then the average "Illusion" size is man size.

Again with the 'average height' thing. What does his average height have to do with anything? And, again, where are you getting any numbers to calculate that average?

It would be silly to assume that from 8,000BC to at least 2,000 AD he was a giant size man. Seriously please don't even argue this point.

Where did I say he was?

The point was simply that his size is never mentioned in the earlier fluff.

He may have been a normal sized man at that point. He may have been a giant. We don't know, because the fluff doesn't tell us.

You also made an assumption that the Emperor is his true form.

No, I didn't.

Could be. So why are you arguing so forcefully that your perception is the "correct" one again? Foot meet mouth.

Edit: that was to the op.

 Psienesis wrote:
Given that the HH novels are, largely, drek, I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into them.

After all, if we take the story of Saint George and the Dragon as the Emperor facing the Void Dragon, then the Emperor managed to do this while wearing iron armor, wielding an iron sword, whatever psychic powers he had at the time, and then, after defeating the Star-God, dragged it to Mars on a horse.

That's no "Regular Joe" feat. That's even better than anything Hercules supposedly did.

Just to jump in here, Heracles replaced Atlas for a period of time. Who was holding up the heavens from crushing Earth. If we go by a modern interpretation of this, Heracles was squatting five quadrillion tonnes.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Given that the HH novels are, largely, drek, I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into them.

After all, if we take the story of Saint George and the Dragon as the Emperor facing the Void Dragon, then the Emperor managed to do this while wearing iron armor, wielding an iron sword, whatever psychic powers he had at the time, and then, after defeating the Star-God, dragged it to Mars on a horse.

That's no "Regular Joe" feat. That's even better than anything Hercules supposedly did.

Just to jump in here, Heracles replaced Atlas for a period of time. Who was holding up the heavens from crushing Earth. If we go by a modern interpretation of this, Heracles was squatting five quadrillion tonnes.

His quads must have been enormous. Yet all the fluff illustrates him as having human sized legs. How can this be???

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Given that the HH novels are, largely, drek, I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into them.

After all, if we take the story of Saint George and the Dragon as the Emperor facing the Void Dragon, then the Emperor managed to do this while wearing iron armor, wielding an iron sword, whatever psychic powers he had at the time, and then, after defeating the Star-God, dragged it to Mars on a horse.

That's no "Regular Joe" feat. That's even better than anything Hercules supposedly did.

Just to jump in here, Heracles replaced Atlas for a period of time. Who was holding up the heavens from crushing Earth. If we go by a modern interpretation of this, Heracles was squatting five quadrillion tonnes.

His quads must have been enormous. Yet all the fluff illustrates him as having human sized legs. How can this be???

When in doubt, density. Clearly his muscles were so dense by the end of that trial they were nearing nuclear fusion.

I think density sums up this discussion quite nicely.

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
But you keep saying it is an illusion... how do you know that the Emperor is not an illusion. He could be a large fat Turkish ugly man as his true form and choose the Emperor as his guise.

Yes, now you're getting it.

If you want to count the average height of his "Illusion" then the average "Illusion" size is man size.

Again with the 'average height' thing. What does his average height have to do with anything? And, again, where are you getting any numbers to calculate that average?

It would be silly to assume that from 8,000BC to at least 2,000 AD he was a giant size man. Seriously please don't even argue this point.

Where did I say he was?

The point was simply that his size is never mentioned in the earlier fluff.

He may have been a normal sized man at that point. He may have been a giant. We don't know, because the fluff doesn't tell us.

You also made an assumption that the Emperor is his true form.

No, I didn't.

Sounds like you are flip flopping or back tracking .. ....

The average height is to establish that when the Emperor was around Earth and not Terra as is now know ... he was human size. I've always stated that to be true. You just like to use the word illusion, so I'll just let you have that word illusion...of a man size. So he was around earth as an illusion of man size. That was the debate... some consider that he was a giant even back then.

Yeah... the size was never mentioned in the fluff during 8,000BC to 2,000AD because it is understood that he must have been normal size. Again, this is commonsense...if you want something to be abnormal like giant or 10 heads and 5 arms... it must be stated. I don't read books like Fight Club and assume the narrator skin was bright orange because it was never mention what color his skin were. If you want to go this route... I'm not impressed.

The word illusion doesn't mean that it has to be like smoke and mirror as you suggested. It could be down to like Morph ability.. meaning that it is not just a visual illusion... he changed in all aspect from weight, smell, sounds, touch, and height. If he was Lady Gaga... he would be Lady Gaga. This silly notion of it is just visual is fill with loop holes and stupid. If his true form is big or small or what ever and everything is just an illusion.. then how does video that capture his image or the weight scale or entering small space or reaching large area would work?

I am the one who said that the Emperor is a guise. Nobody have claim that in this discussion. You just join which ever wagon is wining.

 david choe wrote:
Sounds like you are flip flopping or back tracking .. ....

How?

The average height is to establish that when the Emperor was around Earth and not Terra as is now know ... he was human size. I've always stated that to be true. You just like to use the word illusion, so I'll just let you have that word illusion...of a man size. So he was around earth as an illusion of man size. That was the debate... some consider that he was a giant even back then.

Nope, I'm still not seeing what 'average height' has to do with anything.

I never argued that he wasn't 'normal' sized during his earlier life. Just pointed out that there is no actual evidence that this was the case, and that even if it is the case it has no bearing on how big he was by the time of the Heresy.

Yeah... the size was never mentioned in the fluff during 8,000BC to 2,000AD because it is understood that he must have been normal size. Again, this is commonsense...if you want something to be abnormal like giant or 10 heads and 5 arms... it must be stated. I don't read books like Fight Club and assume the narrator skin was bright orange because it was never mention what color his skin were. If you want to go this route... I'm not impressed.

You can be as umimpressed as you like, but that won't change the fact that we don't know anything that isn't actually detailed in the fluff.

And all of this is, again, ignoring the fact that the fluff you are basing your argument on is from Rogue Trader. So even if we are meant to assume that in that fluff he was a normal-sized man, it has little relevance on the background as it stands now.

The word illusion doesn't mean that it has to be like smoke and mirror as you suggested. It could be down to like Morph ability.. meaning that it is not just a visual illusion... he changed in all aspect from weight, smell, sounds, touch, and height.

The story that I referenced from the Horus Heresy series suggests otherwise.

This silly notion of it is just visual is fill with loop holes and stupid.

Welcome to 40K.

If his true form is big or small or what ever and everything is just an illusion.. then how does video that capture his image or the weight scale or entering small space or reaching large area would work?

I don't know. I think I slept through the class in Uni that covered how psychic abilities interact with video equipment.

I am the one who said that the Emperor is a guise. .

You did, indeed. And then went on to make clear that you didn't actually know what that meant...

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
Sounds like you are flip flopping or back tracking .. ....

How?

I"m going to use your style of argument now.....

---I don't know go check...

 insaniak wrote:

Nope, I'm still not seeing what 'average height' has to do with anything.

I never argued that he wasn't 'normal' sized during his earlier life. Just pointed out that there is no actual evidence that this was the case, and that even if it is the case it has no bearing on how big he was by the time of the Heresy.

--- I never say you were arguing. I didn't say I have evidence. I just show you the short story.

 insaniak wrote:
And all of this is, again, ignoring the fact that the fluff you are basing your argument on is from Rogue Trader. So even if we are meant to assume that in that fluff he was a normal-sized man, it has little relevance on the background as it stands now.

-- - -There is never once established fluff to suggest that he was a giant back in 8,000BC or anytime after that... only as the Emperor was he 10ft tall with Halo. And I've already stated that the Emperor is more than likely another one of his guise too.

So we are back to "if it didn't say his size back on Earth... he must be gigantic or human"? I think it is save to say... he was human for practicality reasons.

 insaniak wrote:

You did, indeed. And then went on to make clear that you didn't actually know what that meant.

- -- Everybody understood what it meant... you only assume that we all couldn't figure it out that he wasn't the same face, sex, race, height, weight, etc... for 38,000years and the word guise is a complicated concept to understand.

I love how you're going by your own view Choe. Where is the citations for all this? Is it in a rule book? RT era diagrams? Black library? Your mind maybe...?

 david choe wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
Sounds like you are flip flopping or back tracking .. ....

How?

I"m going to use your style of argument now.....

---I don't know go check...

Antagonizing a mod because the forum users disagree with you isn't a good way to start the day. Furthermore, every time someone makes a valid counter such as factoring in chaos to science, etc, you put on the hysterics and borderline break the rules.

Then in your next series of posts, you quote the very same rules mind you, especially when you're called on your behavior. I'm unsubbing from this thread, there isn't anything useful to glean from it. (Well, except how Matt Ward was born.)

 david choe wrote:
I"m going to use your style of argument now.....

---I don't know go check...

Ah... so just a random accusation of 'back tracking' then without actually explaining what you're talking about. That's certainly going to promote useful discussion.

-- - -There is never once established fluff to suggest that he was a giant back in 8,000BC or anytime after that... only as the Emperor was he 10ft tall with Halo.

If I tell you that I'm 6 foot tall right now, but don't tell you how tall I was when I was 25, is there any particular reason to assume that my height was any different when I was 25 to what it is now?

So we are back to "if it didn't say his size back on Earth... he must be gigantic or human"?

I don't recall ever being there to begin with, so I wouldn't expect to be 'back' there.

My argument was that the Rogue Trader fluff never mentioned his height, and is largely irrelevant due to being out of date anyway.

- -- Everybody understood what it meant... you only assume that we all couldn't figure it out that he wasn't the same face, sex, race, height, weight, etc... for 38,000years and the word guise is a complicated concept to understand.

Who are you referring to by 'all' here? Because so far you're the only one who has tried to argue that he was actually some humble servant of humanity despite the fluff you had referenced pointing out that this was just a guise that he had adopted...

I think this thread has gone on long enough as it is. Aside from suggesting the Emperor in the guise of Hitler murdered Jews because of Chaos taint, the OP has also been antagonizing almost every other user (including mods), even after several warnings. There is no room for discussion when the OP already made up his mind and made this thread simply because he was bitter about having his other thread closed. Almost all of his posts have been repeatedly nonsensical, childish, and abrasive. If this doesn't warrant a thread closure or even a ban, then I don't know what does.

 Stormwall wrote:
I love how you're going by your own view Choe. Where is the citations for all this? Is it in a rule book? RT era diagrams? Black library? Your mind maybe...?

Why don't you pin point the view you are talking about. It seems that you ignored the copy of Lost and Damned excerpt. Your statement is a bate... I'm not biting. You need to pin point if you want a respond.

 Stormwall wrote:

Antagonizing a mod because the forum users disagree with you isn't a good way to start the day. Furthermore, every time someone makes a valid counter such as factoring in chaos to science, etc, you put on the hysterics and borderline break the rules.

Then in your next series of posts, you quote the very same rules mind you, especially when you're called on your behavior. I'm unsubbing from this thread, there isn't anything useful to glean from it. (Well, except how Matt Ward was born.)

Are you kidding me with this one. I think Insaniak can handle himself and do not need you to even stick up for him. We are debating and doing just fine.

What valid counter statement? Like Chaos Theory? You know that was a stupid mistake ... borderline slowed... one poster was comparing REAL LIFE Chaos theory to a fantasy game. Because Chaos Theory has the word Chaos in it.. so Science must need Chaos to advance. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?

It is like if I were to say that Mike Tyson can punch with a force... then some idiot geek who knew nothing of real world science or sports took that as in Mike Tyson has the Jedi Force power.

Last of all, you really think that we all need to here you validation of how useful this thread to you? Are you that important? Condescending can go both ways too.

 david choe wrote:
What valid counter statement? Like Chaos Theory? You know that was a stupid mistake ... borderline slowed... one poster was comparing REAL LIFE Chaos theory to a fantasy game. Because Chaos Theory has the word Chaos in it.. so Science must need Chaos to advance. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?.

It sounds less stupid if you read what they actually wrote, and realise that this wasn't what they were saying at all.

Given how many times in this and other recent threads you have just completely misunderstood what others are saying to you, I would strongly recommend being in a little less of a hurry to brand opposing arguments as 'stupid'.

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
I"m going to use your style of argument now.....

---I don't know go check...

Ah... so just a random accusation of 'back tracking' then without actually explaining what you're talking about. That's certainly going to promote useful discussion.

See … I was making a point. You seems to be doing this to me.

 insaniak wrote:


If I tell you that I'm 6 foot tall right now, but don't tell you how tall I was when I was 25, is there any particular reason to assume that my height was any different when I was 25 to what it is now?

Again, you are assuming this based on your experience. And why are you going back ward from Omega stage? Based on Alpha stage.. he was normal man size… and he shouldn’t be man size while in guise of the historian people of the world? in the past 2,000 years… what Cult of personality people that was 10ft tall? In fact, no human were ever 10ft tall. To use your example and go forward and not backward… he was man size when he left his family …. he should be the same size until he choose to change. Dude, you know it is foolish to assume that E was some gigantic being around Earth…but then again.. you never say what size he was… so why are you debating with me on this? Are you making a point now? Are you finally going to say that he might be a giant? You see this has been your stance the whole time, but then when I put your feet to the fire.. you said that you didn’t declare that he was a giant. So which is it?

 insaniak wrote:

I don't recall ever being there to begin with, so I wouldn't expect to be 'back' there.

My argument was that the Rogue Trader fluff never mentioned his height, and is largely irrelevant due to being out of date anyway.

Here we go again… This time I have you saying in one post. This is why I stated you are flip flopping …

The paragraph above from you suggested that if you are 6 ft now and when your were 25 your height should be the same? Are you not making this claim? Now you might back track again. I don’t know. You are a bit slick.

Now this paragraph…. your point is not stating that he was gigantic …or human… which I don’t even know what is the point of the discussion. Either you are trying to say that he was gigantic or he wasn’t … but you don’t want to commit to either or. Seems like you Just want to debate me… which is real tiring because when I say he was not a giant.. you suggesting he was.

I already mentioned this many times that if a writer do not mention something abnormal like 10ft size… then you must assume that it was normal. The New Man was in our history and walk the earth… you can’t expect him to be 10ft tall and be MLK or Jesus.

 insaniak wrote:

Who are you referring to by 'all' here? Because so far you're the only one who has tried to argue that he was actually some humble servant of humanity despite the fluff you had referenced pointing out that this was just a guise that he had adopted...

So what was the New Man back then. I’m not trying … I already established that he was humble and a servant of humanity because of the excerpt that I’ve shown.

You understand right, the guise in this context is not to hide his evil or tyrant or whatever you think his agenda that is not humble is. It is to hide his NEW MAN identity. This part is really simple and you interpreted in a weird way and assume he was not a humble man just because of that word guise. He was a humble man. He choose to be humble and he choose to be tyrant and many other cult of personality to defeat chaos and save mankind. For the most part…he wanted peace and none violent .. even during great crusade.. he always tried to give them option. The New Man never wanted to kill his people for no reason. You would be wrong to think other wise.

Last of all…. just because my view is different and you all seems to feel I am attacking you guys…LOL.
It is the other way around. Are you saying that I can pick fight with all of you? I am on the defense here. If anything … you guys should tone it down and stay on topic and cool it down with the condescending and you will get the same treatment from me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 david choe wrote:
What valid counter statement? Like Chaos Theory? You know that was a stupid mistake ... borderline slowed... one poster was comparing REAL LIFE Chaos theory to a fantasy game. Because Chaos Theory has the word Chaos in it.. so Science must need Chaos to advance. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?.

It sounds less stupid if you read what they actually wrote, and realise that this wasn't what they were saying at all.

Given how many times in this and other recent threads you have just completely misunderstood what others are saying to you, I would strongly recommend being in a little less of a hurry to brand opposing arguments as 'stupid'.

Psienesis back on page two... go read his post.
Science and Chaos are not at all separate things. Of course, the Warp doesn't actually exist, but take this real-world field of study:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

... and 40K it up a bit, and you can see why a "pure science" theorem is fethed from the get-go.

Why is he using Chaos Theory in this statement. It has nothing to do with anything.

Then

IaAGeek came in. I assume he was support this Chaos Theory.

I did ask him to explain himself. He did. That was the end of that. The rest was just jokes. He took it well. We all joke here and I don't think any harm was done. Was it? Man.. have you seen the jokes directed at me...Look man.. don't make this a pitch fork and torches on David Choe...ok. It is real lazy.

 david choe wrote:
And why are you going back ward from Omega stage?

I'm not, because this 'Omega' stage is something that you created out of whole cloth.

The thing is, if you're trying to find out how big something is, and you have one piece of text that says 'It's this big' and another piece of text that doesn't say how big it is, what reason is there to assume that this thing is any size other than the one stated?

in the past 2,000 years… what Cult of personality people that was 10ft tall?

In our history? Or the fictional game setting that we're discussing?

In fact, no human were ever 10ft tall.

It's unlikely that any human was also the repository for the combined power of a whole bunch of shamanistic sorcerors, as well.

Again, we're talking about a fictional setting for a game here...

but then again.. you never say what size he was… so why are you debating with me on this? Are you making a point now? Are you finally going to say that he might be a giant? You see this has been your stance the whole time, but then when I put your feet to the fire.. you said that you didn’t declare that he was a giant. So which is it?

I've never declared that he was a giant during his early days. I've pointed out that the fluff about that period doesn't say how big he is despite your claims to the contrary, and that fluff is questionable anyway because of it's age. The only current depictions of the Emperor that we have, have him as a giant. Whether or not he was always that way is not something that is detailed in the fluff, so is not something that we can definitively say one way or the other.

The paragraph above from you suggested that if you are 6 ft now and when your were 25 your height should be the same? Are you not making this claim? Now you might back track again. I don’t know. You are a bit slick.

There's nothing 'slick' about it.

I pointed out that it's reasonable to assume that someone's height now is the same height they were at a previous point in their adult life. I also pointed out that we don't actually know if this is the case with the Emperor, because we're never told.

You're taking the lack of evidence that he was a normal height to begin with as proof that he was a normal height to begin with.
I'm taking the lack of evidence that he was a normal height to begin, combined with the fact that he's a giant later on, to suggest that it's possible that he was always a giant, but that we don't know for sure because of that lack of evidence.

Either you are trying to say that he was gigantic or he wasn’t …

No, I'm trying to say that we have no idea, because the fluff doesn't say.

I already mentioned this many times that if a writer do not mention something abnormal like 10ft size… then you must assume that it was normal. .

And here's the thing... At the time that piece of text was written, it's entirely possible that he was just a normal sized man. As was mentioned earlier, at that point in time regular Space Marines were also normal sized men. And that's a problem, because in the current fluff neither of these things is true.

When GW wrote 2nd edition, a lot of the Rogue Trader fluff was left out. Since then, there's been a common attitude amongst players that anything that isn't specifically contradicted by later fluff should still be considered valid... but with the amount that the fluff has changed in that time, this s becoming less and less viable. So much has been retconned, either subtly or explicitly, that it's far safer these days to assume that anything that hasn't been reprinted in a later edition has probably been long forgotten by the studio, and should really carry very little weight.

If you would rather consider that ancient text as canon, then go for your life. But it still leaves you just guessing at much of the Emperor's true nature, and doesn't back up many of the statements you've been making. It doesn't give you any proof that he was ever a normal-sized man... just that he passed himself off as one for some time.

Insaniak, just lock it and ban him man. This is ridiculous. There is no logic in the arguments, and he keeps going back to name calling at best. He ignores other's arguments and says "I'm right, I already told you I'm right, and your points are invalid because I ignore them". There is no debate here, there is a massive failure of and twisting of a "I want to show off my e-peen" complex here with him.

 troa wrote:
Insaniak, just lock it and ban him man. This is ridiculous. There is no logic in the arguments, and he keeps going back to name calling at best. He ignores other's arguments and says "I'm right, I already told you I'm right, and your points are invalid because I ignore them". There is no debate here, there is a massive failure of and twisting of a "I want to show off my e-peen" complex here with him.

More pitchfork and torches....

insaniak knows that I didn't break any rules and my point is valid regardless of different PO.

I listen...you are not listening to my point.

I am also getting tire of you going off topic here.

You are THe one who is breaking rule 1.

Insaniak...I am reporting this guy for calling me names and insulting me.

From now on, anybody who stray off topic and use personal insult...I will report.

I have been debating using my point and never attacking anybody who didn't attack me first...

This topic is interesting. I will reply to insaniak after my lunch.

@Insaniak

Before I respond the your points below, I just want to remind you about this topic and what are my PO.

This topic was to proof that I wasn’t making stuff up about my PO from the other thread.

There are only two points that I was making.

Point 1 - The New Man size. Alpha stage.
- The New Man or the the man who became the Emperor was human size from 8,000BC to at least 2,000 AD. I will even say that more than likely he was human size all the way right up to Unification War. However, I don’t want to get into that part because it is the future of our real world. So I will only stick to 8,000 BC - 2,000AD. This is what I call Alpha stage. I name it because it is difficult to talk about this topic when some of comes in an assume I was talking about the Emperor at 30,000AD. When I say Alpha… it is clear that this is the beginning of his long life. However, some of you still think I’m making up words like Alpha and Omega and means nothing. It means everything in this context because it describe the period of the New Man’s life. I am not interjecting my PO in to this. Alpha and Omega are just his age period… It is easier for us to just use the word like Alpha or Omega instead of saying Emperor at young age of 8,000 BC to 2,000 AD or in short just Alpha. The other way around is Omega is when he started the Imperium as a 10ft giant man or his last form before he was put on the Golden Throne.

- The Proof (agree to disagree is fine, but my proof is not bs, it has merit)
If you read the New Man story that I posted you will have to assume that he was normal human size. He took guises throughout human history to help mankind. This part is suppose to reflect our real world history and justified everything in our real world to this fictional setting. He could have been Jesus, MLK, Gandhi, Lord Buddha, and also some of the worst people in history like Hitler, Khan, etc…The point is he took those cult of personality and his size is normal… he can’t be gigantic.

- Fluff and fiction story. I took it from The Lost and the Damned , which was the holy grail or the original source (the stuff I posted)
- I also did some research about this.. like Wikki , Lex, etc… over the net. All of them support this story.
- I’ve also went back and read anything I can find about the New Man in all the editions rule book. They all stated the same thing.

NONE ever mentioned his size.
HOWEVER, they all mentioned that the New Man was always around humanity and helping and guiding them. He was not hiding in some tower and watching them. He might be unnoticeable at times.. but he walked among the human species. Again, do you think he walked around as a 10 ft giant?

Point 2 - The New Man personality. Alpha stage.
- I stated that the New Man was a peaceful man and his goal was always nobel and a humble man. This is clearly stated in all the fluff that the New Man was created by the shamans and the purpose of this New Man was for mankind to survive against Chaos and to help man kind prosper and hopefully defeat Chaos. All the fluff also stated that The shamans were peaceful and humble people who have been around longer than man and they have always been there to help man and guide mankind.

- Why is the New Man humble and peaceful? Because the Shaman were and also it is stated that the New Man wanted peace. When ever he killed in the thousands or millions … it was stated that he had remorse. It has always stated that he did the killing because he had to do it for the greater good of mankind and for man to survive Chaos. Not once had he killed for blood lust or did it for greed. It has never been stated that way. Please go read all the fluff you can about his Alpha stage and show me where it stated that the New Man did that.

- Out of Universe support. GW mentioned that the New Man was on a mission for the betterment of mankind and to survive Chaos. If he fail… Man will be extinct like soon to be Eldar. He killed men because it was no other options.

- - - -PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I AM TALKING ABOUT ALPHA EMPEROR OR THE NEW MAN - - - — - - - -

 insaniak wrote:

I'm not, because this 'Omega' stage is something that you created out of whole cloth.

I explained to you again above about Omega stage, which is just his time period… and nothing has change about his story. You are mentioning about how people last height at middle age (Omega for the Emperor)should reflect their height as young adult. You gave an example of yourself at 6 feet at middle age… and then your height at 25 should be 6 ft also.

I made it clear to you that it was a silly way of proofing a point that way because why not look at a person at age 20 and look at it again at 25? You are trying to say that if the Emperor was 10 ft at 38,000AD, he should be 10ft at 2,000AD. This is a silly notion also. The Emperor is a shape shifter. However, he was not a stupid man. He always take the best form to his advantage. 10ft at 38,000 AD is a big advantage, but a great disadvantage at his New Man alpha stage. So this point is really silly.

 insaniak wrote:

The thing is, if you're trying to find out how big something is, and you have one piece of text that says 'It's this big' and another piece of text that doesn't say how big it is, what reason is there to assume that this thing is any size other than the one stated?

This is a false argument. We have many texts that stated he was born normal and he took many guise around human history. No text ever mentioned his height, but we must assume that he was not some gigantic man… we must assume that he was normal man size. BTW - in Lost and the damned (1980s)… you mentioned that it was so old that they have no intention of him being 10ft and space marines were man size. You are right. Back then men were men in sizes. Now in 2000s space marines are about 7 to 8 ft tall and old fluff has be changed. However, the New Man story has never change. He was still born from the Shaman at Anatolia out of normal mother and father. He still walked around people. Nothing has change about his size. You are the one who is making this part debatable. If you can find no text of the New Man height… then why assume that he was a giant? Show me any text of the New Man as a giant. If there are none, you want to go out of your way to assume that he was 10 feet tall?

 insaniak wrote:

In our history? Or the fictional game setting that we're discussing?

In fictional setting that is based on our history. You would be one of the rare breed who think that 40K earth history is not the same as our real world history. Yes in 40K… WW2 happened and Hitler was real in 40K.

 insaniak wrote:

In fact, no human were ever 10ft tall.

It's unlikely that any human was also the repository for the combined power of a whole bunch of shamanistic sorcerors, as well.

Again, we're talking about a fictional setting for a game here...

Yes we are talking about fictional game here, but the alpha stage of the New Man is also based on real life history. Why are you so against this concept? Go read all the fluff about the New Man. I think you and I both know that you feel like you are cornered here… lets don’t go this route. I respect your POV, but the minuet you take this route….

 insaniak wrote:

but then again.. you never say what size he was… so why are you debating with me on this? Are you making a point now? Are you finally going to say that he might be a giant? You see this has been your stance the whole time, but then when I put your feet to the fire.. you said that you didn’t declare that he was a giant. So which is it?

I've never declared that he was a giant during his early days. I've pointed out that the fluff about that period doesn't say how big he is despite your claims to the contrary, and that fluff is questionable anyway because of it's age. The only current depictions of the Emperor that we have, have him as a giant. Whether or not he was always that way is not something that is detailed in the fluff, so is not something that we can definitively say one way or the other.

You just argue with me about he could be 10ft tall and now you are not saying that he is and you don’t know and that the Emperor is 10ft tall so we must assume that he was back then? Which is it? If you have none, then why do you come and tell me that I am wrong or I have no proof that he was man size at Alpha stage. I mean… this is getting really silly now. I have to proof to you that the New Man who is a shape shifter and is living among man and taking guise of men to shape history might be a giant. You must show the proof to make an outrageous claim like that. If you have no proof, then you can’t tell me that I can be wrong. You are a smart man… you know it is silly for you to claim that Leaf the Lucky (the Viking how discover America) was 10ft tall. You would need to proof it to us. This is one of those same situation….

 insaniak wrote:

There's nothing 'slick' about it.

I pointed out that it's reasonable to assume that someone's height now is the same height they were at a previous point in their adult life. I also pointed out that we don't actually know if this is the case with the Emperor, because we're never told.

You're taking the lack of evidence that he was a normal height to begin with as proof that he was a normal height to begin with.
I'm taking the lack of evidence that he was a normal height to begin, combined with the fact that he's a giant later on, to suggest that it's possible that he was always a giant, but that we don't know for sure because of that lack of evidence.

I already explain to death about this one. You are now saying that we are to assume that Omega Emperor of 10ft height is also the same height as the New Man at 10ft. Clues and commonsense would disagree with you.

 insaniak wrote:

Either you are trying to say that he was gigantic or he wasn’t …

No, I'm trying to say that we have no idea, because the fluff doesn't say.

Again, you are not trying to say what height.. but many above statement suggest that you are saying just that.

 insaniak wrote:

And here's the thing... At the time that piece of text was written, it's entirely possible that he was just a normal sized man. As was mentioned earlier, at that point in time regular Space Marines were also normal sized men. And that's a problem, because in the current fluff neither of these things is true.

When GW wrote 2nd edition, a lot of the Rogue Trader fluff was left out. Since then, there's been a common attitude amongst players that anything that isn't specifically contradicted by later fluff should still be considered valid... but with the amount that the fluff has changed in that time, this s becoming less and less viable. So much has been retconned, either subtly or explicitly, that it's far safer these days to assume that anything that hasn't been reprinted in a later edition has probably been long forgotten by the studio, and should really carry very little weight.

If you would rather consider that ancient text as canon, then go for your life. But it still leaves you just guessing at much of the Emperor's true nature, and doesn't back up many of the statements you've been making. It doesn't give you any proof that he was ever a normal-sized man... just that he passed himself off as one for some time.

Man.. this is so silly. The original fluff and art work and everything in 1980s stated that Space marines were normal height and many art work of the Emperor at normal height. You even agree that it was normal height. I am not getting into new fluff or art work at the moment, but how can anybody back in 1980s would assume that the New Man was 10ft when the Emperor was normal height. In other words… the 10ft tall Emperor was a new thing in 2000s. So all old fluff was clear that he was normal height even as an emperor and you think that the New Man could be 10ft?

Now if you think that the New Man height fluff has changed… show me. Where does it even remotely closely stated the New Man’s height.

No, I think I'm done here. You have misunderstood far too much of my last post for my waning attention span to justify trying to find another way to explain it all that you're not going to misinterpret or ignore.

I think the real problem here, and it is something I discovered after I posted a topic about alpha legion. Discussions about theories and stuff are useful as long as everyone is permissive. The best answer anyone will ever get concerning 40k fluff, even if it is explicitly spelled out in cannon is "that is an interesting interpretation."
The reason for this is because ultimately the whole purpose of this enterprise is to sell little plastic models to adults who paint them and play war games with them. Anything and everything produced by GW is in support of that idea. Fluff, Black Library, Supplements, and codex's all support the main goal of making the little plastic figures appealing to consumers. For this reason fluff changes and in the overwhelming majority of topics left intentionally vague and open to interpretation.
For example: I really like Thousand Sons and Grey Knights but they have some of the most ambiguous history in the game. This is so that if I interpret them one way I still want to play with those models, and if you interpret it another, you still want play with those models, as that is GW’s ultimate goal.
Explicitly stating stuff after leaving it vague for so long would alienate players and cause a lot of lost sales. Which is why GW looks at it that way. Insisting you are correct in what may be the most subjective fictional universe setting in modern sci-fi gaming (Like seriously Star Wars and Star Trek look like Well documented historical texts compared to 40k fluff.) is just a pointless endeavor. OP I’m glad you are so passionate about the fluff, it really shows you like the game and have done your research, but ultimately it is all subjective and up to each individual players interpretation. It has been since the beginning and probably will be until GW is no more.
Just my 2 teef

 GKTiberius wrote:
I think the real problem here, and it is something I discovered after I posted a topic about alpha legion. Discussions about theories and stuff are useful as long as everyone is permissive. The best answer anyone will ever get concerning 40k fluff, even if it is explicitly spelled out in cannon is "that is an interesting interpretation."
The reason for this is because ultimately the whole purpose of this enterprise is to sell little plastic models to adults who paint them and play war games with them. Anything and everything produced by GW is in support of that idea. Fluff, Black Library, Supplements, and codex's all support the main goal of making the little plastic figures appealing to consumers. For this reason fluff changes and in the overwhelming majority of topics left intentionally vague and open to interpretation.
For example: I really like Thousand Sons and Grey Knights but they have some of the most ambiguous history in the game. This is so that if I interpret them one way I still want to play with those models, and if you interpret it another, you still want play with those models, as that is GW’s ultimate goal.
Explicitly stating stuff after leaving it vague for so long would alienate players and cause a lot of lost sales. Which is why GW looks at it that way. Insisting you are correct in what may be the most subjective fictional universe setting in modern sci-fi gaming (Like seriously Star Wars and Star Trek look like Well documented historical texts compared to 40k fluff.) is just a pointless endeavor. OP I’m glad you are so passionate about the fluff, it really shows you like the game and have done your research, but ultimately it is all subjective and up to each individual players interpretation. It has been since the beginning and probably will be until GW is no more.
Just my 2 teef

I have no problem with other PO and in the end... people can agree to disagree. However, for some reasons, people won't leave me alone about my PO and keep stating that I was wrong. I think my proof is compelling and if anything ... not pulling out of my ass. The irony of this is that because I won't accepted their PO view as correct, my PO is some how wrong.

I welcome all POV to contradict me and I would love it if someone show me FACTS, PO is ok, but FACTS will convince me and I will admit I was wrong and change my POV. Trust me, I do not want to have wrong data about anything in my life.