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 Grey Templar wrote:
Here is what GW needs to do.


1) Close all their stores, shift all sales to third party retailers, only sell a few select products directly. Let your distributors sell your product for you. Its more efficient and saves money in the long run.

2) Outsource all rule production and development to Fantasy Flight Games. People play your games for the rules, so let people who know how to make rules write them.

3) Make package deals that actually save customers money, have regular sales on various holidays. Have starter boxes for each faction that make a legal army and save the customer money. Allow your distributors to charge whatever they want for your product, you've already been paid.

This, a thousand times. GW is killing itself by its own tyranny over its product sales.

 KiloFiX wrote:
I like my local GW because they:

+ Allow FW
+ Allow Unbound
+ Allow any GW formations
+ Play more Maelstrom
+ Insist on painted models
+ Limit use of non-GW models

My local GW manager is very involved, friendly and supportive, and they run 3 tables.

Some of my LGS are also cool but some of them, are cliquish that don't allow FW, have weird rules like no Formations, etc.

But I can see how some don't like GW stores exactly because of the above.

Yes - for a lot of people, many of those are reasons to avoid playing at a GW store. (I would have no problems with Forgeworld models, but the others would make me go someplace else, though it sounds like your local manager is putting in the extra effort needed.)

Unbound was, in my opinion, a really bad idea, while Formations are a good idea poorly executed and balanced. (I am afraid that lack of proper playtesting and balancing are kind of a hallmark of GW....)

House and store rules often happen because of people trying to throw a patch over problems in the rules.

Insisting on painted armies... ... ... I have no problem with, but I do know folks that have great unpainted masses. I prefer having painted armies on both sides of the table.

The Auld Grump

 Vermis wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:

 Zaki66 wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
I like my local GW because they:
+ Limit use of non-GW models

They allow this??? In a GW shop? Wat?

What I meant was "prevent use of non-GW models"

I don't really have the words. Right now I'd just like to publically register my astonishment.

Yeah I don't get this. Why is it a positive to only allow GW models? There are a lot of excellent models and bits out there perfectly suited for 40k (and made explicitly for 40k). I get why GW does it, but I don't get why a gamer would like it.

I remember the last time I was in a GW shop I had some Kromlech Cybork bits on my bikers. Caught a lot of grief from one of the regulars about having "heretical" parts. Funny the staff never said anything about it...probably helped I was buying a few hundred dollars worth of models every month while the regulars just sat at the paint bar and never bought anything. Some of the GW staff there were really cool and I can tell they felt constrained by the company policy. The manager was really pathetic though. A true incarnation of all the negative stereotypes you see posted here about GW staff.

There was a very successful GW in Alamo, CA near where I went to college. Manager and part-time staffer were both great guys, ran tournaments, helped provide terrain for indie tournaments and in general were just great guys to hang out with. The store was always packed, was located in a wealthy area with plenty of young teens who had parents to buy them armies. I can't help but think they made their sales goals every year, but for whatever reason GW just shut it down (I assume when the lease was up). That was kind of the nail in the coffin for me going to GW stores. You had two dedicated staff who had really created a community and supported 40k and fantasy brilliantly and kept the store packed every day, yet they closed it down anyways.

Well, with my tongue only slightly in my cheek, I'd say that GW encourage the feeling that their products are the truth and the light, and that using them should engender a warm and fuzzy feeling deep inside, while simultaneously imbuing a deep seated hhhorror of all non-GW wargaming materials, perhaps implying their use will cause one's winky to shrivel and drop off or similar.

Perhaps this poster is a product of that system?

weeble1000 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Wait, did they ever have stores in malls?

They used to. They're all gone now.

Exactly. Because they didn't work. Instead of ditching the model, GW did what it always does: it doubled down because they couldn't think of something better to do with the money.

I don't think it was that they didn't work so much as GW was trying to save money and shot themselves in the foot. Though it definitely would depend on *which* mall they are in. It's no surprise to me that back in the day all GW's that were in larger shopping centres or in shopping centres close to train stations were the most populated, ones that were harder to get to were less popular.Now they're all a pain in the arse to get to. My local GW used to be in a shopping centre that was immediately opposite a train station and the centre has a food court and all that jazz and a decent amount of foot traffic. They moved out of there and down the street, away from the train station, away from any shops that serve food, away from the foot traffic. It ceases being useful at that point.

Hobby stores originally had a good purpose, they were active advertising. That's an extremely good thing IMO, better to have 5 people walk in to your store in person than 100 people see your billboard and ignore it. But they ceased being useful when they moved out of areas where new customers could potentially stumble in and hamstrung themselves by having only 1 staff member so they couldn't handle multiple customers at once and have insane opening hours.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, with my tongue only slightly in my cheek, I'd say that GW encourage the feeling that their products are the truth and the light, and that using them should engender a warm and fuzzy feeling deep inside, while simultaneously imbuing a deep seated hhhorror of all non-GW wargaming materials, perhaps implying their use will cause one's winky to shrivel and drop off or similar.

Perhaps this poster is a product of that system?

Well, they are "jewel like objects of magic and wonder".

If the shops were making GW money, the company wouldn't need to close them to save money.

I think your point though was that GW wasn't aware that the shops were a valuable asset as is, and only looked at reducing their overall costs.

Neither of those possibilities reflects well on the company. But as to what they should do going forward, you think that GW investing more into their retail locations would be the way to go?

I personally think that the GW store model should be allowed to die. At this point, one man shops are actively tarnishing GW's brand. And GW keeps saying that the store managers are the problem, not the model, so the company is effectively at war with its employees. GW should phase that ugly mess out.

 kronk wrote:
I won't play another game in a 1-man store. "Oh, I have to leave all of my painted forgeworld armies laying around while you take a lunch break, and then come back to see some snot-nosed 11 year old fething with my gak?

feth you.

I hate having to leave for half an hour... I mean it's fine if the weather is nice, but Canada isn't known for its nice winters... that and their hours are crap anyways.
Really don't get the purpose of GW stores anymore, in a mall I did, now... they're a waste of space.
If I wanted to buy something I'd get it at a FLGS which is where I normally go.

Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

Nothing

weeble1000 wrote:
But as to what they should do going forward, you think that GW investing more into their retail locations would be the way to go?

It's one of the two ways they could go. They could invest more into their stores, especially by putting them into high-traffic locations where they can function effectively as a marketing tool, and make them worth having. Or they could just concede that they can't compete with independent stores and close the whole chain. They just need to get out of the awkward middle ground where they have all of the drawbacks of a middle-of-nowhere independent store but none of the advantages.

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

For some people, there just aren't any FLGS nearby and a GW store might be closer.

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

The advantage would be focus.

They could be solely focused on their stuff instead of sharing space with competitors and sales people they don't control.

weeble1000 wrote:
If the shops were making GW money, the company wouldn't need to close them to save money.

I think your point though was that GW wasn't aware that the shops were a valuable asset as is, and only looked at reducing their overall costs.

I don't think ALL stores were worth while, but it seems to me that GW just looked at stores globally and thought "hmmm, this isn't making enough money, lets move them all out of malls and drop them to 1 employee" when they should have been looking at each store individually and asking the question "why isn't THIS store working?"

Of the handful of GW stores near me, it seems to me that they each had varying levels of success yet all of them have been struck by the same "move out of shopping centres in to the middle of no where and drop to 1 employee".

It seems to me they would have been better served employing a few people to investigate them on a store by store basis instead of instigating a global cull.

But as to what they should do going forward, you think that GW investing more into their retail locations would be the way to go?

I personally think that the GW store model should be allowed to die. At this point, one man shops are actively tarnishing GW's brand. And GW keeps saying that the store managers are the problem, not the model, so the company is effectively at war with its employees. GW should phase that ugly mess out.

I try not to be too predictive about what GW SHOULD do because I think to make any sort of reasonable guess requires more numbers than we actually have on hand. I tend to think GW should start by doing local level advertising on a store by store basis, small events both for existing gamers and to try and draw in newer gamers, try and get a feel for the local gaming community and make more inroads instead of living by the "let them come to us" idea. After trying that and seeing whether or not it works and start deciding what you need to do with the stores themselves.

Of course that's in addition to the more systemic problems with GW, beyond the stores themselves there are problems that if GW don't fix them they're not going to be able to drag it back.

It's entirely possible that GW needs to accept they can't maintain being the big fish in a small pond any more and need to start conceding ground to stay profitable. People often talk about how gaming outside of GW is becoming more successful while GW themselves are starting to fail so therefore GW are doing bad... I do tend to be of the opinion that GW shrinking is an inevitable consequence of the rest of the market growing and while GW could improve their situation I'm sure, I think there's a good chance they can't physically match the growth that the rest of the market has because part of that growth is their existing customers diversifying.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
I like my local GW because they:

+ Allow FW
+ Allow Unbound
+ Allow any GW formations
+ Play more Maelstrom
+ Insist on painted models
+ Limit use of non-GW models

My local GW manager is very involved, friendly and supportive, and they run 3 tables.

Some of my LGS are also cool but some of them, are cliquish that don't allow FW, have weird rules like no Formations, etc.

But I can see how some don't like GW stores exactly because of the above.

Yes - for a lot of people, many of those are reasons to avoid playing at a GW store. (I would have no problems with Forgeworld models, but the others would make me go someplace else, though it sounds like your local manager is putting in the extra effort needed.)

Unbound was, in my opinion, a really bad idea, while Formations are a good idea poorly executed and balanced. (I am afraid that lack of proper playtesting and balancing are kind of a hallmark of GW....)

House and store rules often happen because of people trying to throw a patch over problems in the rules.

Insisting on painted armies... ... ... I have no problem with, but I do know folks that have great unpainted masses. I prefer having painted armies on both sides of the table.

The Auld Grump

I'm actually surprised that there's such a strong opposition to the points I originally listed above.

Having some standards is all. I'm tired of playing against soda can Drop Pods.

Apart from the Unbound thing, most of the Tournaments I've observed have maintained those points.

Also, note that I'd originally said "limit use of non-GW models" and not "ban any and every little non-GW conversion part".

 KiloFiX wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
I like my local GW because they:

+ Allow FW
+ Allow Unbound
+ Allow any GW formations
+ Play more Maelstrom
+ Insist on painted models
+ Limit use of non-GW models

My local GW manager is very involved, friendly and supportive, and they run 3 tables.

Some of my LGS are also cool but some of them, are cliquish that don't allow FW, have weird rules like no Formations, etc.

But I can see how some don't like GW stores exactly because of the above.

Yes - for a lot of people, many of those are reasons to avoid playing at a GW store. (I would have no problems with Forgeworld models, but the others would make me go someplace else, though it sounds like your local manager is putting in the extra effort needed.)

Unbound was, in my opinion, a really bad idea, while Formations are a good idea poorly executed and balanced. (I am afraid that lack of proper playtesting and balancing are kind of a hallmark of GW....)

House and store rules often happen because of people trying to throw a patch over problems in the rules.

Insisting on painted armies... ... ... I have no problem with, but I do know folks that have great unpainted masses. I prefer having painted armies on both sides of the table.

The Auld Grump

I'm actually surprised that there's such a strong opposition to the points I originally listed above.

Having some standards is all. I'm tired of playing against soda can Drop Pods.

Apart from the Unbound thing, most of the Tournaments I've observed have maintained those points.

Also, note that I'd originally said "limit use of non-GW models" and not "ban any and every little non-GW conversion part".

I think the things most people would be opposed to us the Unbound, Formations, Maelstrom, and not being able to use non-GW models, haha. Also I have no problem with unpainted, there's a big jump between unpainted and soda can drop pods.

My local GW store is fine with unpainted but not with crazy proxies like that.

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

In the UK most GW stores of any size have tables you can play on, even if the standard RoBB, and tend to carry the full in-store range with reasonable stock availability. The smaller FLGS's tend not to have much permanent gaming space, and don't always carry the full range, if at all. GW stores are almost always more prominant too.

For instance: Glasgow GW (Right under Central Station) has about 5 gaming tables + the 3 demo tables, with no-one else locally selling GW stuff (Static Games used to, but dropped it).
However: Edinburgh GW (Right on the Royal Mile) has I think 4 tables, including the 3 demo tables, but the FLGS (6stohit) has 9 permanent tables + space for another 9 temporary tables, and sells most of the GW range at 25% off.

In Glasgow, GW is your only option, in Edinburgh, there's no reason to visit the GW over 6's unless you're after something that's out of stock or limited.

 KiloFiX wrote:


I'm actually surprised that there's such a strong opposition to the points I originally listed above.

Having some standards is all. I'm tired of playing against soda can Drop Pods.

Apart from the Unbound thing, most of the Tournaments I've observed have maintained those points.

Also, note that I'd originally said "limit use of non-GW models" and not "ban any and every little non-GW conversion part".

I think it depends on your perspective - GW is really the only company to enforce a no-other-companies rule (PP require something to be mostly PP, Battlefront won't use a photo for PR unless it's all Battlefront), and particularly to historics players the idea of being limited to a range without being able to DIY is just bizarre. When I started gaming the Drop Pod wasn't available, and GW themselves published guides on how to make vehicles from household items (like the deoderant land speeder) so it's not that much of a shock. Admittedly I wouldn't play with an unconverted soda can, because I'd want to drink it. In the same vein, painted models are better than unpainted, but a game with unpainted is better than no game at all, especially if you're a horde army.

The bigger problems are Unbound and the like - because it makes pick-up games nightmarish to deal with, especially if you're not allowed to say "no unbound".

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

They sell only GW products,

FLGS sell other stuff so may develop a customer who either buys GW and moves on, or never buys GW.

Given a choice (and if the numbers add up) any brand will prefer to have a dedicated store (but in most cases the numbers don't make sense)

ProtoClone wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

The advantage would be focus.

They could be solely focused on their stuff instead of sharing space with competitors and sales people they don't control.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:They sell only GW products,

FLGS sell other stuff so may develop a customer who either buys GW and moves on, or never buys GW.

Given a choice (and if the numbers add up) any brand will prefer to have a dedicated store (but in most cases the numbers don't make sense)

Well that's the advantage to GW. What's the advantage to you?

 Vermis wrote:

ProtoClone wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

The advantage would be focus.

They could be solely focused on their stuff instead of sharing space with competitors and sales people they don't control.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:They sell only GW products,

FLGS sell other stuff so may develop a customer who either buys GW and moves on, or never buys GW.

Given a choice (and if the numbers add up) any brand will prefer to have a dedicated store (but in most cases the numbers don't make sense)

Well that's the advantage to GW. What's the advantage to you?

I can see two "advantages", and I use the term sarcastically:
1.) Not being exposed to non-GW games and miniatures which I guess is somehow an advantage for some people?
2.) Looking at other threads on the forums, apparently a lot of peoples' non-GW game stores are post-apocalyptic chaotic nightmares ruled by money-grubbing vampires, as opposed to GW stores, which are known for being extremely low-pressure environments where no one tries to sell you anything (all though in fairness, the one GW store I've been to in the past five years was run by a super-chill guy who did, in fact, not pressure me to buy anything. That seems to be the opposite of what I hear about GW stores in general, though).

 Vermis wrote:

ProtoClone wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

The advantage would be focus.

They could be solely focused on their stuff instead of sharing space with competitors and sales people they don't control.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:They sell only GW products,

FLGS sell other stuff so may develop a customer who either buys GW and moves on, or never buys GW.

Given a choice (and if the numbers add up) any brand will prefer to have a dedicated store (but in most cases the numbers don't make sense)

Well that's the advantage to GW. What's the advantage to you?

The assumed advantage to myself, the customer, is I get variety and GW approved expert sales people.

 Vermis wrote:

Well that's the advantage to GW. What's the advantage to you?

The store is well-maintained, well-lit, and there is an accountability that is not present at most independents.

There is a reason I stopped doing preorders through independents and only do so through my local GW if there is something I want.

Things used to mysteriously never arrive(because they never got ordered in the first place), or they would arrive and I would have a few hours notice to "Get here and pick it up" or it gets put out on the shelf and sold, etc.

That doesn't happen with my GW. Even if I somehow am unable to preorder something(as was the case with "Khaine"--the regular edition sold out within 3-4 minutes of going up on the website, and in the span of time it took to sign in and place the order it was gone) he maintains a list of who tried to order items before they sold out and will ensure that you get a shot at it on release day, by holding it for the course of a day.

And in regards to gaming? If a friend and I want to have a game at the shop, all we have to do is ask him at least twelve hours in advance and he'll hold a table for us by putting a little notecard down. He does the same when it comes to the "hobby area".

The caveat is that if we have to cancel or can't make it, we have to let him know ASAP so that he can open it up for others (which is entirely reasonable).
The local independents? If you're not playing MTG or in their tournaments, you are screwed if you want to play a game.

 Vermis wrote:

ProtoClone wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Not being snarky here, but genuinely curious. What is the perceived advantage a GW store has over a FLGS?

The advantage would be focus.

They could be solely focused on their stuff instead of sharing space with competitors and sales people they don't control.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:They sell only GW products,

FLGS sell other stuff so may develop a customer who either buys GW and moves on, or never buys GW.

Given a choice (and if the numbers add up) any brand will prefer to have a dedicated store (but in most cases the numbers don't make sense)

Well that's the advantage to GW. What's the advantage to you?

Focus can be an advantage to the customer as well. If I go to my local FLGS I can play one of half a dozen different games... only 1 of which I actually collect, so finding an opponent is hit and miss. Basically the FLGS is only reliable for finding opponents if you play Magic and maybe for Warmahordes, I don't play either of those.

The GW store, however, if I rock up with a 40k army then I know I'll be able to find people who play 40k.

I do collect games other than GW games, but they don't match up with the games that are popular at the FLGS. The only real use the FLGS has to me is paints, I prefer to buy paints in person rather than online, but that said I discovered another hobby store (general hobby, not wargaming) that carries a much better range of paints so I don't find myself at the FLGS much at all now.

The GW also carries a pretty complete range, on the off chance I want something *now* and can't wait for it to come through the mail I can just go pick it up from the GW (even though it'll be more expensive, if I want it today it's the best option).

I think it depends a lot on the circumstances of the LGS and local players.

Some have LGS that are much better, and some have GW stores that are much better.

In my local, it's super easy to get a fun 40K pick-up game at the local GW store, at any time, even on a Wed. And they have 3 tables open. And they have Realm of Battle - City. And they always have what I'm looking for in stock - for the items that should be available retail.

At my LGS, there's usually no players except for specific game nights. And there's 50-50 chance I'll have to order and wait a week for items that should be available retail. And many of the players there are always complaining.

 Vermis wrote:

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:They sell only GW products,

FLGS sell other stuff so may develop a customer who either buys GW and moves on, or never buys GW.

Given a choice (and if the numbers add up) any brand will prefer to have a dedicated store (but in most cases the numbers don't make sense)

Well that's the advantage to GW. What's the advantage to you?

You somehow quoted me as saying that but I didn't.


But yeah, I was speaking more from a US perspective, it's my understanding that GW stores are far more ubiquitous in the UK. But yeah, doesn't mean that there's no place for (good) indies.

sorry, fixed

GW should:
close their stores,
run a scheme for FLGS to sell and push their stuff for them,
possibly employ someone to sell in those other stores,
support tournaments,
ask for feedback, from customers and stockists,
allow inter-continental sales.

They're not Apple, and will never be as big. But, even Apple doesn't control their sales as tightly as GW. They allow 3rd party addons, and advertise.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Well that's the advantage to GW. What's the advantage to you?

The store is well-maintained, well-lit, and there is an accountability that is not present at most independents.

The caveat is that if we have to cancel or can't make it, we have to let him know ASAP so that he can open it up for others (which is entirely reasonable).
The local independents? If you're not playing MTG or in their tournaments, you are screwed if you want to play a game.

Sorry your local independents suck so bad.

You should move to North Metro Atlanta and experience the awesome that is Giga Bites Café. Around 3,000 square feet of gaming space. They have 10 permanent tabletop wargame tables. There are sufficient card tables that they had a 120-person PTQ for MtG recently that didn't impact the wargame tables at all. (For tabletop tournaments, they put temporary gaming surfaces on the card tables to allow more games.) I've never had an issue with ordering anything and not receiving it. The Café portion of the store serves deli sandwiches, Panini's, coffee drinks and smoothies, so you don't even have to go anywhere to eat if you don't want to. They sell about a dozen different tabletop games, have a wall of board games, and a section for CCG's.

There is a local GW about 15-20 minutes away on surface streets. It has two tables. The only reason I can see for going to the GW store is to pick up those items that GW mysteriously delivers to their own stores while telling the FLGS's that those items are unavailable.

Saldiven wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Well that's the advantage to GW. What's the advantage to you?

The store is well-maintained, well-lit, and there is an accountability that is not present at most independents.

The caveat is that if we have to cancel or can't make it, we have to let him know ASAP so that he can open it up for others (which is entirely reasonable).
The local independents? If you're not playing MTG or in their tournaments, you are screwed if you want to play a game.

Sorry your local independents suck so bad.

You should move to North Metro Atlanta and experience the awesome that is Giga Bites Café. Around 3,000 square feet of gaming space. They have 10 permanent tabletop wargame tables. There are sufficient card tables that they had a 120-person PTQ for MtG recently that didn't impact the wargame tables at all. (For tabletop tournaments, they put temporary gaming surfaces on the card tables to allow more games.) I've never had an issue with ordering anything and not receiving it. The Café portion of the store serves deli sandwiches, Panini's, coffee drinks and smoothies, so you don't even have to go anywhere to eat if you don't want to. They sell about a dozen different tabletop games, have a wall of board games, and a section for CCG's.

There is a local GW about 15-20 minutes away on surface streets. It has two tables. The only reason I can see for going to the GW store is to pick up those items that GW mysteriously delivers to their own stores while telling the FLGS's that those items are unavailable.

And now I get to point out that other bit...

Despite living in a fairly large city(Raleigh), public transportation/walking distance is nonexistent where I actually live.
Within 15-20 minutes drive time of me I have:
One independent
The GW store

The independent that is within that drive time is the one that I have had awful experiences with, and hence will not frequent.

There are at least three more independents, but it is a longer drive to any of them than it is to my local GW which affects how often I want to make the trip--or even if I can make the trip.
Add in fuel costs, etc and sometimes it becomes a joke to think that the "25% discount" I could get somehow alleviates the fuel cost.

The one exception is for a store that stocks Infinity, as I try to balance out my online purchases and in-store purchases to 50/50 for Infinity. Haven't been doing that of late though because N3 is a trainwreck.