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Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




So it's been universally accepted that this is not worth its points. In the old codex, most thought it was poor, I didn't because I fielded it in large numbers in av13 lists. Taking 1 or 2 didn't work too well, but higher numbers and it was decent
With scout and therefore outflank, it was possible to effect your opponents deployment zone. Being in FA meant you could take other things in heavy to deal with AT and/or take the heavy firepower.
Now it no longer has scout, so can't get close quickly to use its flamestorm, or outflank. You also can't realistically take more than 1 without crippling your ranged AT firepower as it is now in HS. Meaning also, that you can no longer take other tanks such as vindis to take the heavy fire power off of it.

Without sponsoons it is 115pts. It needs to get close to the opponent (within melta range), and thus expose its side armour to be able to achieve anything. It won't be able to engage the opponent with its main weapon until T2 at the earliest, and it's weapon is pretty specialised against MEQ, against almost anything else and it may as well just be a heavy flamer. If it gets weapon destroyed result it becomes a glorified ram.
In comparison, a predator with autocannon and lascannon side sponsoons, also costing 115pts (which is generally considered average), puts out a lot of AT firepower from T1, doesn't have to move towards the opponent to do so, doesn't put itself in melta range and doesn't have to risk its side armour. If it gets a weapon destroyed result it still has 2 more weapons. The only thing it lacks in comparison is fast (which it can purchase for 10pts).

A fast pred with autocannon costs 85pts. That means a Flamestorm cannon is considered to be 30pts more expensive than an autocannon, deapite all the disadvantages this brings, listed above.

It is undeniably overcosted.

What would you do to fix it?
-Give it back scout?
-Give it torrent?
-Reduce its cost?
-Something else?
(Obviously not all of the above together)

I own 4 flamestorm baals and I'm not happy that they are now completely unplayable even slightly competitively now. How would you fix them?


Side note:
Not complaining about the BA dex in general. I like it.
I know other things are broken in other dexes but I'm asking for a theoretical discussion so can we avoid a 'stop whining and just accept it' attitude.
I've currently lost one of my assault cannon turrets off another baal so it is now currently FIVE flamestorms I have (and one assault cannon one left). That is a lot of moneys worth of models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 12:34:01


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





What about letting it fire overwatch? if it's big thing is it's flamer cannon then that seems reasonable.

Torrent seems pretty powerful but then the hellhound has torrent so don't see why baal couldn't. How do the points tally up vs the hellhound? bearing in mind it is AV13,12,10 instead of AV 12,10,10.
   
Made in us
Implacable Skitarii





Actually, the Hellhound variants are all 12,12,10. I couldn't tell you why, as its the only thing on the Chimera platform that is.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I'd give it torrent and see how that goes. It's current incarnation is a death sentence if you use the flamer.
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Av 13/11/10 compared to av 12/12/10.
The thing about overwatch is that you then have to rely on your opponent charging it for it to make any difference. Plus it'll still then only average another 2 st6 ap3 hits even if they do.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Predator hulls need to keep their distance in general, which means the flamestorm cannon was never that good. It was decent in 5th because of the melee vs vehicles rules.
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




I found it decent in high concentration av13 lists. But that is not possible now.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Poly Ranger wrote:
Av 13/11/10 compared to av 12/12/10.
The thing about overwatch is that you then have to rely on your opponent charging it for it to make any difference. Plus it'll still then only average another 2 st6 ap3 hits even if they do.


Sure but the biggest threat to a flame range tank is getting charged and punched on your rear armour (other than perhaps warp spiders or bikes jumping into rear arc).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 16:06:13


 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




wtnind wrote:
Poly Ranger wrote:
Av 13/11/10 compared to av 12/12/10.
The thing about overwatch is that you then have to rely on your opponent charging it for it to make any difference. Plus it'll still then only average another 2 st6 ap3 hits even if they do.


Sure but the biggest threat to a flame range tank is getting charged and punched on your rear armour (other than perhaps warp spiders or bikes jumping into rear arc).


Not as much for BA, as our jp assaulting troops will be right alongside it (usually) and will often lock such threats in combat. It's melta and side armour shots I fear the most with flamestorm baals. Combat is still a worry, don't get me wrong - overwatch would be a nice improvement, but not enough. 2 extra st6 ap3 hits and only IF your opponent charges it, just doesn't cut it.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Maybe the fix is to just give all Predator variants (IE, Predator and Baal Preds) AV12 side armor.

It's kind of a head scratcher when a vehicle that is supposedly an MBT-equivalent has such thin side armor. Even an Eldar Fire Prism has better side armor (and a better gun, but that's neither here nor there).
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Yeh it doesn't really make sense at all. Now personally I think the auto-las pred is adequately costed. I wouldn't mind it being 10pts more to be side armour 12. Anymore and I'd stick with av11.
Thing is, whilst this may slightly help a flamestorm baal, it is still massively overcosted compared to a basic pred and it doesn't really help its limited damage output, its susceptibility to melta, or as witnind pointed out, having to get in assault range (even if this can be countered). I would still take an auto-las over it if all preds had side armour 12.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Then perhaps the solution is to give Baal Preds a price cut? From what I understand (don't really care for BA, because space vampire knight-monk-supersoldiers are kind of lame, IMO), is that the Baal Preds were originally Fast Attack choices, but are now HS.

Maybe if this was changed back, and the Baal Pred more appropriately costed, it would be better?
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Yeh if they were in FA it would make it possible to run av13 lists again, which was the only way I found to make them decent. I wonder how many points people think a flamestorm baal should cost? Personally I think in its current incarnation it should be 90pts absolute max... more like 80 or 85. 115pts is just insane.

If it is 90 I would probably take a normal pred but may take baals. If it was 85, it would be a toss up, if it was 80 I would probably go baal over normal pred, but not for certain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even then it's still got massive weaknesses in comparison to a normal pred and the only reason I'd be taking it is because I have 5 of the beggers and then it'd be slightly reasonable for its points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 20:54:58


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Doesn't the upgrade to get "Fast" on a stock Pred cost like 10 points?

A stock vanilla Pred comes in at 75 points, IIRC. Throw in another 10 for Fast stock, and now we're at 85 points. I'd actually say around 95 points, and then maybe making the twin-linked AC option cheaper (I don't actually know what BA pay for one), would be pretty good.

OTOH, if we kick up side armor to AV12, then a Baal Pred could probably cost about 100 points flat for an AV13/12/10 chassis with the Flamestorm cannon.

As an aside, Flamestorms getting "Torrent" would be a godsend for a LR Redeemer, and I'd wager that Baal Preds would love that too.

EDIT: for the record, I'm not really sure what all that would cost, so I might very well be making it a little too much, cost-wise. OTOH, I think it's better to start slightly higher and then adjust as needed- by either improving the platform/weapon, or making it cheaper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/07 00:30:10


 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Yeh the assault cannon version should be 10pts more than a fast autocannon baal, its short range and lower strength being compensated by 2 extra shots and rending.
Whilst a flamestorm is a lot more risky for very little gain so I would say it should cost the same as (although realistically less) than a normal fast pred.
I still wouldn't go so far to pay 100pts for it even if it had side armour 12. If it had side armour 12 AND was in FA like you suggested previously, I might think about taking a few (never 1 or 2, because 1 or 2 just doesn't work).
I agree that it's better to start out at more than you think it's worth and then come down. Believe it or not - that's what I was suggesting at 90pts lol!

I would pay 115pts for it if it had torrent. I'd even pay an extra 5 or maybe even 10 pts for that!
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





I think the biggest reason that they cost so much is that they're a really iffy weapon. Sure, there's the chance the think will get shot down before it accomplishes anything. At the same time, it could 1-hit something expensive, like a squad of sternguard, if it gets lucky.

It's definitely worth at least 20 points more than an autocannon though, as at least against MEQ, an autocannon might get kill a single marine once every 2 or 3 turns... you can literally ignore the thing, so long as you're not running any light armor.

The other key thing is that assault cannons (keep in mind it's TL, right?) deal statistically more damage against just about everything. Against armor 4 or worse assault wins with more shots, against lower armor it has rending, it can actually hurt AV14. Literally the only downside is less range, but they're fast.

Overall, if we're going off the cost of a fast predator, the weapon options of the baal should cost 20 points more. Bare minimum 100 points even. I think changing them to fast attack though wouldn't be unreasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keep in mind that I think the base predator is a bit overcosted though, considering the primary weapon on a MBT is a single, not even TL, autocannon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/07 09:44:56


 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




When comparing just the damage output of the weapons, then yes they look a lot better. But when you compare the range in conjunction with side armour values, then it makes a big difference. Now the assault cannon version I would have no issue with it being 20pts more than a base fast pred, although it too suffers from side armour issues. But the flamestorm has to get so close, has no way to do this without it being a suicide run even if it does get there without dying, and it also has lost scout reducing this chance dramatically anyway.
No opponent with any sense will even allow you to cover enough sternguard (one of the units this is optimal against, what if there are no sternguard?), with 1 flamer template to make your points back, let alone get into credit. Most won't even allow you to get near such a unit.

A pred with 2 lascannons and an autocannon costs as much as a flamestorm baal and will be killing far more meq over the course of the game, and can also kill vehicles and hurt MCs. All without endangering itself.

It shouldn't be 20pts more (let alone 40) compared to a base pred. It really really sucks. Bear in mind also I was one of the few who championed its worth last dex, whilst other BA players stated that it was poor. Now its lost scout, moved to HS and has only come down by 5pts whilst everything else came down by far more. It has lost any chance of ever being chosen - and this is coming from one of the few people who used to think they were decent. God knows what the majority of BA players think about it now if I think this!
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

My idea for fixing the flamestorm Baal:

The Baal Predator is a Fast Attack choice in an Adepta Sororitas army.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster




Behind you

Torrent as above but mabe make it fast or somthing like this. OVERCHARGED the baal preditor may move flat out and still fire all flamer weapons. With torrant in a wall of three meq burgers will be served.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





You cant really compare an assault cannon to a template (which ignores cover btw).

Heldrakes are torrent, S6 AP3 and costs 170 points, its 12/12/10 and doesn't arrive till turn 2. If the Baal has torrent then it shouldn't be too cheap.
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Although the Heldrake is a flyer so has hard to hit and superior movement. As you state, it also has a side av of 12. It also has a 5++, IWND, st7 vector strike, can choose to reroll wounds and armour penetration for a turn AND ignores crew stunned and shaken results on a 2+.

So IF a Baal got torrent for an increase of lets say 10pts, we would then be saying the following is worth 45pts:
-Flyer movement/speed
-Hard to hit
-side AV12
-5++
-IWND
-St7 vector strike
-Rerolls to wound/pen for a turn
-Ignores crew shaken/stunned on a 2+.

+10pts and torrent on a baal seems about right.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Poly Ranger wrote:
Yeh the assault cannon version should be 10pts more than a fast autocannon baal, its short range and lower strength being compensated by 2 extra shots and rending.
Whilst a flamestorm is a lot more risky for very little gain so I would say it should cost the same as (although realistically less) than a normal fast pred.
I still wouldn't go so far to pay 100pts for it even if it had side armour 12. If it had side armour 12 AND was in FA like you suggested previously, I might think about taking a few (never 1 or 2, because 1 or 2 just doesn't work).
I agree that it's better to start out at more than you think it's worth and then come down. Believe it or not - that's what I was suggesting at 90pts lol!

I would pay 115pts for it if it had torrent. I'd even pay an extra 5 or maybe even 10 pts for that!


An AV13/12/10 3HP vehicle that's both Fast and Tank, with an S6/AP3 (non-Torrent) template, for 90 points.

I don't really see that as a bad price, though I would like to mention that IG Hellhounds are pretty similar; they're AV12/12/10, 3HP, Fast+Tank, and come with a Torrent S6/AP4 template weapon and a heavy bolter. There are two points of difference in terms of chassis profile- the current Predator chassis (including the Baal) has better front, but inferior side, armor, and better BS. OTOH, Hellhounds can be thrown into a squadron together, and can be tag-teamed with similar vehicles that exchange the Torrent flamer for an AP3/poison template or a small blast MM.

Of course, having such a vehicle is probably worth a different price in an IG force, so it might be entirely irrelevant to bring up HHs.

 kingbobbito wrote:
It's definitely worth at least 20 points more than an autocannon though, as at least against MEQ, an autocannon might get kill a single marine once every 2 or 3 turns... you can literally ignore the thing, so long as you're not running any light armor.

The other key thing is that assault cannons (keep in mind it's TL, right?) deal statistically more damage against just about everything. Against armor 4 or worse assault wins with more shots, against lower armor it has rending, it can actually hurt AV14. Literally the only downside is less range, but they're fast.

Overall, if we're going off the cost of a fast predator, the weapon options of the baal should cost 20 points more. Bare minimum 100 points even. I think changing them to fast attack though wouldn't be unreasonable.


Baal Preds, AFAIK, don't get to take autocannons. OTOH, at present you could probably roll the Baal and standard Predator entries together in the BA book, and not actually lose anything- Baal Preds are literally just Fast included as stock, what's really just spare options- IIRC they get HF sponson options, in addition to the Flamestorm cannon and twin-linked AC.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Keep in mind that I think the base predator is a bit overcosted though, considering the primary weapon on a MBT is a single, not even TL, autocannon.


Oh, I definitely agree with you that a stock Predator is pretty terrible as any kind of weapon platform. A single autocannon as an MBT weapon? I mean, LR Exterminators get around it by being both twin-linked and doubling the RoF, on top of being a tougher chassis. But the classic "dakka Pred"? Yeah... so you kill some light/medium infantry reasonably well. Very impressive for a freakin' MBT.

Poly Ranger wrote:
No opponent with any sense will even allow you to cover enough sternguard (one of the units this is optimal against, what if there are no sternguard?), with 1 flamer template to make your points back, let alone get into credit. Most won't even allow you to get near such a unit.

A pred with 2 lascannons and an autocannon costs as much as a flamestorm baal and will be killing far more meq over the course of the game, and can also kill vehicles and hurt MCs. All without endangering itself.

It shouldn't be 20pts more (let alone 40) compared to a base pred. It really really sucks. Bear in mind also I was one of the few who championed its worth last dex, whilst other BA players stated that it was poor. Now its lost scout, moved to HS and has only come down by 5pts whilst everything else came down by far more. It has lost any chance of ever being chosen - and this is coming from one of the few people who used to think they were decent. God knows what the majority of BA players think about it now if I think this!


It's also worth noting that Baal Preds probably lack the appropriate combination required to function as a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX. So there goes that option (despite not being super good; a proper DISTRACTION CARNIFEX analogue, IMO, needs to actually be at least somewhat dangerous).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
My idea for fixing the flamestorm Baal:

The Baal Predator is a Fast Attack choice in an Adepta Sororitas army.


Well... I think it might be a little silly for a SM vehicle to be showing up in a Sisters force. That said, they idea of Sisters getting a badass flame tank in FA? Yeah, I would totally support that.

Also, to the person who brought up a Heldrake comparison... as mentioned, Heldrakes get a lot of nifty stuff to go with their Torrent S6/AP3 flamer- Flyer status, AV12 side armor, 5++, S7/AP3 vector strikes (despite not being an FMC...), IWND, and relative immunity to shaken/stunned results.

Baal Preds shelling out 10 points for Torrent is perfectly reasonable.
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




No, I think you are right to go into detail with the hellhound comparison. Correct that they forfill different rolls as well, supporting an assault with BA and attempting to prevent assault with guard. It does mean the chimera doesn't have to expose itself as much though.
So we're in agreement that it should either be +10pts and have torrent or be 90pts max?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Yeah, I'd say that 90pts max for the current, with twin-linked AC being +20pts, would be a good position.

For a version with Torrent, adding +10pts to the cost would be an excellent status. Worst case scenario, I'd say start it at +15pts for Torrent, and then adjust from there. My gut says, however, that 10pts is about where Torrent should sit.

Also, it's worth mentioning Land Raider Redeemers, which suddenly become one of the most badass flame tanks in existence, with two, Torrent, S6/AP3 flamers, that it can fire simultaneously at Combat Speed, and at two different targets if it so chooses.

That being said, I'd say that it'd be a 15-20 point increase for a LR Redeemer with Torrent Flamestorms.
   
 
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