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 chrisrawr wrote:

Start from the root of the problem - it ISNT that terminators aren't tanky enough. It's that they don't do enough when they get onto the field to make their points worth it.

That would mean a complete rewrite of the game. This is more of a Band aid to fix an issue with a unit caused by the new meta created by changes in the most recent rules. This will nead to be revisited every time GW decides to alter it's rules, mostly because they "fix" things with a Sledgehammer, rather than a Scalpel. Though, the new Codex rate, and micro codex releases, and the rumor that rules will be in the unit boxes, makes me think they are getting closer to using a saw.

Guys, this is a playtesting thread. It's not argue over this specific fix. It's to prove if it's broken, or not, by statistical scenarios or-on the-board testing.

Alternative takes on the "improve Terminators" question are still going on in the other thread. There's also an entirely different thread for improving Storm Bolters.

Try and direct your "try this instead" comments to the relevant thread. Seeing how they do against other Infantry in CC, or that 1W is 72x S3 shots, is what we want to learn here.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Guys, this is a playtesting thread. It's not argue over this specific fix. It's to prove if it's broken, or not, by statistical scenarios or-on the-board testing.

Alternative takes on the "improve Terminators" question are still going on in the other thread. There's also an entirely different thread for improving Storm Bolters.

Try and direct your "try this instead" comments to the relevant thread. Seeing how they do against other Infantry in CC, or that 1W is 72x S3 shots, is what we want to learn here.

I was about to say the same thing. The people bringing up the specific fixs instead of the testing are just derailing the thread.

Various Necron CC units at 200pts, versus 6x PF Terminators at 186pts. Terminators are S8 AP2, Unwieldy, 4+ FNP.

TLDR, the PF Terminators can definitely keep up, even striking at Init 1. Assault Terminators, having a 3++, or striking at Init 4 with 2x Claws, are obviously going to do even better.

8x Lychguard (200pts) - S7 AP2 Warscthye, Init 2, RP
-- 8x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(1/2) = 80/24 - 3 Terminators removed
-- 3x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(2/3) = 60/36 - 2 Lychguard removed

7x Lychguard (200pts) - S5 AP3, 3++, Sword and Shield, Init 2, RP
-- 7x2x(1/2)(4/6)(1/6)(1/2) = 56/144 - 0 Terminators removed
-- 6x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1/3)(2/3) = 120/108 - 1 Lychguard removed

7x Praetorians (196pts) - S5 AP2, Rod of Covenant, Init 2, RP
-- 7x2x(1/2)(4/6)(1)(1/2) = 56/24 - 2 Terminators removed
-- 4x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(2/3) = 80/36 - 2 Praetorians removed

7x Praetorians (196pts) - S5 AP4, Particle Caster/Voidblade, Entropic, Rending, Init 2, RP
-- 7x3x(1/2)(3/6)(1/6)(1/2) - 63/144 - 0 Terminators removed (Normal)
-- 7x3x(1/2)(1/6)(1)(1/2) - 21/23 - 1 Terminators removed (Rending)
-- 5x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(2/3) - 100/36 - 3 Praetorians removed

5x Wraiths (215pts) - S6 AP-, Init 5, Rending
-- 5x3x(1/2)(4/6)(1/6)(1/2) = 60/144 - 0 Terminators removed
-- 5x3x(1/2)(1/6)(1)(1/2) = 15/24 - 1 Terminator removed (Rending)
-- 5x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1/3) = 50/36 - ~1W, 0 Wraiths removed

Yoyoyo wrote:
Various Necron CC units at 200pts, versus 6x PF Terminators at 186pts. Terminators are S8 AP2, Unwieldy, 4+ FNP.

TLDR, the PF Terminators can definitely keep up, even striking at Init 1. Assault Terminators, having a 3++, or striking at Init 4 with 2x Claws, are obviously going to do even better.

8x Lychguard (200pts) - S7 AP2 Warscthye, Init 2, RP
-- 8x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(1/2) = 80/24 - 3 Terminators removed
-- 3x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(2/3) = 60/36 - 2 Lychguard removed

7x Lychguard (200pts) - S5 AP3, 3++, Sword and Shield, Init 2, RP
-- 7x2x(1/2)(4/6)(1/6)(1/2) = 56/144 - 0 Terminators removed
-- 6x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1/3)(2/3) = 120/108 - 1 Lychguard removed

7x Praetorians (196pts) - S5 AP2, Rod of Covenant, Init 2, RP
-- 7x2x(1/2)(4/6)(1)(1/2) = 56/24 - 2 Terminators removed
-- 4x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(2/3) = 80/36 - 2 Praetorians removed

7x Praetorians (196pts) - S5 AP4, Particle Caster/Voidblade, Entropic, Rending, Init 2, RP
-- 7x3x(1/2)(3/6)(1/6)(1/2) - 63/144 - 0 Terminators removed (Normal)
-- 7x3x(1/2)(1/6)(1)(1/2) - 21/23 - 1 Terminators removed (Rending)
-- 5x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(2/3) - 100/36 - 3 Praetorians removed

5x Wraiths (215pts) - S6 AP-, Init 5, Rending
-- 5x3x(1/2)(4/6)(1/6)(1/2) = 60/144 - 0 Terminators removed
-- 5x3x(1/2)(1/6)(1)(1/2) = 15/24 - 1 Terminator removed (Rending)
-- 5x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1/3) = 50/36 - ~1W, 0 Wraiths removed

are these necrons getting bonuses from Decurion detatchment? If not, then I would figure that in to things as well as well as some of the more probable buffs they could be getting from various things. Because THAT is what most will see. I think Necron CAD probably isn't going to be used as much this edition with decurion around.

Baseline stats. Formation bonuses need to be costed appropriately. I'm thinking long term. I don't want to bury the regular CAD.

so the obvious question re this..

what about terminator Apocatharies? a few Termy units can take em (notably GK pallies) how would that factor into the rule? increase the FNP save by +1?

That's a quirk in the system that needs to be adjusted.

If they up the FNP, they have to go up in price.

If they provide a INV save to the unit, they have to go up in price.

OR

They allow the re-roll of 1 failed FNP per turn.

OR

They allow the FNP to be boosted by +1, but for 1 game turn only, declared at the start of the turn.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
That's a quirk in the system that needs to be adjusted.

If they up the FNP, they have to go up in price.

If they provide a INV save to the unit, they have to go up in price.

OR

They allow the re-roll of 1 failed FNP per turn.

OR

They allow the FNP to be boosted by +1, but for 1 game turn only, declared at the start of the turn.

I think on a non-hq a limit of 4+FNP and apothecaries increase FNP by +1 would be fine. Or maybe apothecaries make FNP work like Reanimation Protocols in the Decurion detatchment. That is you get the FNP against things like instant death, but at -1, so a 5+ becomes a 6+.. Or maybe a combinatoin of these things. I am leaning towards the Decurion variation myself. HQs I think should be able to get to 2+ and cap there. No instant passes.

11x Incubi at 220pts versus 7x PF Terminators at 217pts. Terminators are S8 AP2, Unwieldy, 4+ FNP. Incubi still resoundingly defeat PF Terminators at points. Do keep in mind Incubi don't have ranged weapons, or grenades to avoid Init penalties assaulting into cover. If everyone strikes at Init 1, it ends up being more or less equal.

11x Incubi (220pts) - Klaive, S4 AP2, Init 5.
-- 11x2x(2/3)(1/2)(1)(1/2) = 44/12 = 3.67 Terminators removed
-- 3x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(1) = 30/12 = 2.5 Incubi removed

11x Incubi (220pts) - Klaive, S4 AP2, Init 1.
-- 11x2x(2/3)(1/2)(1)(1/2) = 44/12 = 3.67 Terminators removed
-- 7x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(1) = 70/12 = 5.83 Incubi removed

Second scenario. 11x Incubi at 220pts 5x TH/SS Termies, at 225pts. Slight advantage to TH/SS even with Incubi at Init 5. At initiative 1, with a 4+ FNP, TH/SS advantage in CC is more pronounced. TH/SS is also more survivable than Incubi against any kind of ranged fire in the game, and would hold a better FNP (4+ at T4) which isn't reflected here.

11x Incubi (220pts) - Klaive, S4 AP2, Init 5.
-- 11x2x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)1/2) = 44/36= 1.22 Terminators removed
-- 4x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(1) = 40/12 = 3.33 Incubi removed

11x Incubi (220pts) - Klaive, S4 AP2, Init 1.
-- 11x2x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)(1/2) = 44/36= 1.22 Terminators removed
-- 5x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1)(1) = 50/12 = 4.17 Incubi removed