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Why not Heralds surfing on top of Screamers?

changemod wrote:
Why not Heralds surfing on top of Screamers?

Isn't that basically what a Disc of Tzeentch is anyways ?

Fluffwise the Discs are Screamers that have been transformed by Tzeentch.
Modelwise, the Discs are more round than Ray shaped.

I figured I'd try both. May have to make a second model for the screamer as well, with the tail flopping the other direction. All of them with the tail going the same way would bug me.

 adamsouza wrote:

changemod wrote:
Why not Heralds surfing on top of Screamers?

Isn't that basically what a Disc of Tzeentch is anyways ?

Fluffwise the Discs are Screamers that have been transformed by Tzeentch.
Modelwise, the Discs are more round than Ray shaped.

I figured I'd try both. May have to make a second model for the screamer as well, with the tail flopping the other direction. All of them with the tail going the same way would bug me.

Yes, I just figure literal Manta Surfing is a cool variant on the disc concept.

changemod wrote:
Yes, I just figure literal Manta Surfing is a cool variant on the disc concept.

Hey, just for, I'll make one herald surfing on the back of a screamer

 adamsouza wrote:

changemod wrote:
Yes, I just figure literal Manta Surfing is a cool variant on the disc concept.

Hey, just for, I'll make one herald surfing on the back of a screamer

ha two of my Disc Heralds are just that. I like them just fine. The other rides the center of what was a chariot of Tzeentch and the screamers that the other two Heralds are surfing are the ones meant to pull the Chariot. What can I say? I had a chariot in 6th when they were just "god no, never use it" and I needed three Heralds. . . voila.

Any who I'm going to a small 1500 point tourney tomorrow and I've decided on this:

Be'lakor
Tz'erald: ML3, Grim
Tz'erald: ML3
Tz'erald: ML3

12x Horrors: Iridescent
12x Horrors: Iridescent

10x Hounds

Daemon Prince: Nurgle, ML3, Wings, Armor, 2x Greater, 1x Lesser

11x Horrors: Iridescent

On the docket to be summoned are: 6 Plague Drones, 10 Plaguebearers, 1 Nurgle Herald, Keeper of Secrets, 20 Daemonettes, Bloodthirster, 20 Bloodletters, 15 Hounds, Lord of Change, and 6 Screamers.

I can't believe I'm bringing this many models to a 1500 pt tourney Should be fun though!

Known oppostion includes: Tau/FE w/ MissleStar, 2 Skyrays, VT Bursttide, and MSU suits; Some sort of Decurion with wraiths; 2 IKs backed up by 3 Valks and a Vulture; Eldar w/ 4+ Serpents, and others I am not aware of at present. Wish me luck! Any last thoughts?

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Known oppostion includes: Tau/FE w/ MissleStar, 2 Skyrays, VT Bursttide, and MSU suits; Some sort of Decurion with wraiths; 2 IKs backed up by 3 Valks and a Vulture; Eldar w/ 4+ Serpents, and others I am not aware of at present. Wish me luck! Any last thoughts?

Tau: You could try 'Terrify' to scare that misslestar and/or bursttide of the table.
Necron: try to lock those wraiths with 1 unit horrors + grimoir+ cursed earth.
IK's + flyers: Try to position your FMC that you can 'vector strike' those flyers. Also use 'shrouded' to your advantage because theirs no/not a lot of anti-cover.
Eldar: Play the mission and use invisibility.

One of my friends suckered me into a "friendly" 2000 point game this weekend. I thought he was bringing Chaos Daemons as well, but then puts Grey Knights on the table and insists we play a Maelstom Mission.

Turn 5 he has Draigo with a unit of Paladins, 2 Dreadnaughts, and Techmarine all actively running away from my hordes of Daemons. If there were rounds 6 and 7 I would have tabled him.

He won 17 to 2. The Mission cards hated me, I literally could only achieve 1 during the game, because it happened to be to capture an objective I was already sitting on. By turn 2 he had something like 12 victory points, and I stopped even trying to accumulate them.

I lost 2 summoned Greater Daemons, Fateweaver, some Pink Horrors, and Daemonettes. FateWeaver was entirely my fault. I popped him out of cover to buff the Keeper of Secrets battling Draigo and the Paladins. Then proceed to fail to cast Iron Arm on himself, and Invisibility on the Keeper of secrets. The KOS rolls all 2's for his saves, dies, and frees up Draigo and the Paladins to charge Fateweaver.

If I had Screamers and Drone models to summon, I think I would have tabled him.

The highlight for me was his Dreadknight jumping 30" across the board and getting tarpitted by pnink horrors, only to be charged by 2 of my Daemon Princes and a Great Unclean One, who murdered him in a single assault phase.

You summon 6 Keeper of Secrets in a game, and your opponent starts finding all sorts of things to complain about...

They are not official models !! - No they are not, but since we are playing in my basement, I think it's okay with the owner



It's too confusing !! - The ones with 4 arms, crab claws, or breasts, and no wings are Keeper of Secrets. The ones with wings are Daemon Princes of Tzeentch.

They are unpainted !! - In the last month I put together 3000+ points of Chaos Daemons, scultping and casting some of them, painted 60+ models, and all the terrain on the table we are playing.

They are too small !! - What ? Those 4 guys standing around that Blood Thirster are "too small" to be greater Daemons ?



I'm finding Screamers of Tzeentch very useful summoned in squads of 3. Is it worth fielding them in larger numbers, as part of your starting force ?

 adamsouza wrote:
You summon 6 Keeper of Secrets in a game, and your opponent starts finding all sorts of things to complain about...

They are not official models !! - No they are not, but since we are playing in my basement, I think it's okay with the owner



It's too confusing !! - The ones with 4 arms, crab claws, or breasts, and no wings are Keeper of Secrets. The ones with wings are Daemon Princes of Tzeentch.

They are unpainted !! - In the last month I put together 3000+ points of Chaos Daemons, scultping and casting some of them, painted 60+ models, and all the terrain on the table we are playing.

They are too small !! - What ? Those 4 guys standing around that Blood Thirster are "too small" to be greater Daemons ?



I'm finding Screamers of Tzeentch very useful summoned in squads of 3. Is it worth fielding them in larger numbers, as part of your starting force ?

i would not play against a couple of mcdonalds toys ;S hopefully the terrain and table is beautifully painted

When proxying, you must remember the rule of cool.

Players are entirely within their rights to refuse to play against inappropriate proxies. This is exacerbated by summoning. More than one TO has insisted on no proxies for summoned units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But it's a fine line... I've been running my homemade battlefleet tyranid fleet as screamers.... I think they look cool... And a lot of effort went into the painting and modelling... But they aren't screamers,and anytime I put them down , I'm ready for an objection.

astroth wrote: I would not play against a couple of mcdonalds toys ;S hopefully the terrain and table is beautifully painted

It's a good thing I'm not fielding McDonlads toys.

The tables feature, felt covered, 8ftx4ft gaming surfaces a foot above 8ft x 5ft tables, which are also felt lined, with a bottom shelf 6inch above the floor. They are superior to anything I've ever encountered, or even seen in a gaming shop. They provide ample space for everything the players bring with them, off of the gaming surface. The terrain is pretty sweet as well.

Captyn_Bob wrote:When proxying, you must remember the rule of cool.

They are big, demony, and feature lots of conversion and custom sculpting. What is not cool about that ? Sure, they are unpainted at the moment, but our gaming tables have seen lots of unpainted, and base coated black miniatures hit the field as well.

Players are entirely within their rights to refuse to play against inappropriate proxies.

Players are entirely within their rights to refuse to play against anything.

The situation I'm having is people know the army I'm working on, decide they have hard counter for it, challenge me to a game, and then getting increasingly butthurt, when I start winning.

This is exacerbated by summoning. More than one TO has insisted on no proxies for summoned units.

I get that. If I were playing in a tournament, I wouldn't even bring this army. I'm playing this army with my weekly gaming group, who plays on two massive gaming tables I built in my basement. For all practical purposes, I am the TO of the gaming group, and we've never head issues with people playing with conversions, third party manufacturers products, and straight up Chinese bootlegs.

I posted the min rant because I'm annoyed that the amount of complaints is directly proportional to how badly they are losing any particular game.

The same guy who had zero complaints when he blew me out of the water with his poorly painted Grey Knights, suddenly had issues the next week when he challenged me to a rematch with his Red Talons and he figured out it was only his Librairan that got extra VPs for killing Pyskers and it was not an army wide rule.

Souza, what's the list you're running currently? Also SIX Keepers. . .that's awesome lol.

I took my 1500 summoning centric list against eldar (old eldar now I guess) Serpent Spam and had a pretty rough match of it. We were playing Scouring w/ modified Maelstrom in hammer and anvil deployment, and I just couldn't get close enough to start doing real damage. Didn't help that I played Be'Lakor too aggressively on Turn 1 and lost him Turn 2 to only two Serpents. . . I ended up making a pretty close game of it and could have even won it if only I hadn't derped and summoned a unit that wasn't necessary instead of putting all my warp charges toward flickering fire like I should have. I also failed a couple crucial FF's on 3 dice each. Ouch. I don't know, overall I was a little bummed out with the lack of initial hitting power, and went back to playing something with a few less warp charges, but a lot more immediate threats. Also I just painted two Flyrants that I've had around for ever so I've been having fun with my DaemoBugs. Leviathan cheese FTW. I still want to try to get a handle on a summoning list that can do better though.

Fate Weaver (who mostly gets used for re-rolls)
4 x Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds (for 12 shots at possession) Portalglyph
4x Pink Horrors x12 (warp charges, bodies fpr sacrifice, and additional chances at possession)

Sprinkle in additional pink horrors and Tzeentch Daemon Princes to get up to whatever points level I'm playing.

Although, this weekend I'm thinking of trying Dual CAD so I field 8 Heralds

Going to try out some varation of this at 2000 points

CAD1
HQ1 Fate Weaver
HQ2 4 x Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds (Maelific) Portalglyph
2x Pink Horrors x12

CAD2
HQ1 Blue Scribes
HQ2 4 x Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds (Maelific, 1 on Disc) Grimoire
2x Pink Horrors x12
FA Screamers (as many as points allows)

I haven't tried playing a Screamerstar yet, so this will be a first.
Possesion has 1 in 6 odds of coming up, and the list grants me 25 attempts, so average of 4 should come up.
Sacrifice to get more level 2 heralds for more possesion attempts
Blue Scribes get off a warp charge free maelific power each turn (50% odds of pink horrors, heralds, or screamers)
Portalglyph for 50% chance at more pink horrors for more warp charges

I now have a half dozen Keeper of Secrets, 70+ pink horrors, 21 screamers, and a dozen heralds, so I shouldn't run out of models

Sound good, or is there room for improvement ?

With a screamerstar in that kind of list I would definitely want a unit of 9 screamers and at least 3 heralds on discs because you never know which of your heralds is going to roll the all important cursed earth and its going to be targeted to oblivion the turn that fateys reroll lets you down and the grimoire fails. I would also consider a backup unit of at least 7 screamers for harassment and insurance should you fail the grimoire and your star get shot to pieces

More discs, more screamers. Check !

I'll have to toy with battlescribe to better see what I can jam in there.

I've been getting by with summoning Greater Daemons, and heralds, faster than they kill them. Adding the screamers was just a way to put some pressure on the opposing forces turn 1. Screamerstar was kind of an after thought to keep them alive longer. If I can make it work though, I'll do it.

Thank you for the input.

Yeah i mean considering youre bringing that many Tz'eralds anyway, its not a stretch to put a couple more on discs. You might want to think about putting either greater or lesser rewards on the 2 non grimoire disc heralds for some extra ap2 attacks on a unit that a lot of opponents are going to want to tie down as quickly as possible.

Adam, everyone, thanks for this thread.

Really, really digging the lists and the modeling ideas, too.

Kommissar Waaaghrick, It's great to hear that your enjoying the thread, and took the time to let us know.

---

CAD1
HQ1 Fate Weaver
HQ2 3 x Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds (Maelific) on discs 1 with Grimoire, 2 with greater reward
TR1 Pink Horrors x12
TR2 Pink Horrors x12
FA1 Screamers x9
FA2 Screamers x9

CAD2
HQ1 4 x Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds (Maelific)
TR1 Pink Horrors x12
TR2 Pink Horrors x12

Lost a herald and the Blue Scribes, but now have 2 full units of screamers on the board.
Still have 24 chances to draw possesion, and 33 warp charges

So, I should be able try out a screamerstar and summon Greater Daemons .

I just had a Math Hammer 40K epiphany.

The odds of rolling a specific power you want are 1 in 6, or 16%, but you can't have the same power multiple times on the same Psyker, so you re-roll duplicate powers, making the odds better.

1st power roll 16% (1 in 6)
2nd power roll 20% (1 in 5)
3rd power roll 25% (1 in 4)

So, if I did my mathhammer right, a level 3 Psyker has a 61% of getting any one power, if he rolls all his powers on the same table.

So each level 3 Herald of Tzeentch will have a 61% chance of getting possession if they generate all their powers from Maelific.

Level 2 Tzeentch Herald has only a 36% chance, but can be summoned himself via Sacrifice.

Unfortunately no, if you get the power then your 2nd and 3rd rolls can't get the power you want so:

1st roll: 1/6
second roll: 5/6*1/5=1/6 probability of not having the power times the probability to get it this roll.
3rd roll: 4/6*1/4=1/6

So the rule that prevents you from getting two the same powers hurts you just as badly as that it helps you . After you failed the first roll then the probability of the second roll to get it is indeed higher, but before you start rolling it isn't.

 adamsouza wrote:
I just had a Math Hammer 40K epiphany.

The odds of rolling a specific power you want are 1 in 6, or 16%, but you can't have the same power multiple times on the same Psyker, so you re-roll duplicate powers, making the odds better.

1st power roll 16% (1 in 6)
2nd power roll 20% (1 in 5)
3rd power roll 25% (1 in 4)

So, if I did my mathhammer right, a level 3 Psyker has a 61% of getting any one power, if he rolls all his powers on the same table.

So each level 3 Herald of Tzeentch will have a 61% chance of getting possession if they generate all their powers from Maelific.

Level 2 Tzeentch Herald has only a 36% chance, but can be summoned himself via Sacrifice.

You don't simply add them together. That's not how you do math.

Let me give you an example on how your process is flawed.

Lets assume that instead of 1 sacrifice, there is are 3 on the malefic table

So it would be 3/6 + 3/5 + 3/4

Which would equal 185%. Which is impossible because you can't have more then 100% but also there is still a chance of you picking 3 that aren't so it wouldn't even be 100%.

What you are suppose to do is multiply the chance of failure together and subtract it from 1. So it would look like 1-(5/6*4/5*3/4) which equals 0.5 so 50%

Unfortunately no, if you get the power then your 2nd and 3rd rolls can't get the power you want so:

1st roll: 1/6
second roll: 5/6*1/5=1/6 probability of not having the power times the probability to get it this roll.
3rd roll: 4/6*1/4=1/6

So the rule that prevents you from getting two the same powers hurts you just as badly as that it helps you . After you failed the first roll then the probability of the second roll to get it is indeed higher, but before you start rolling it isn't.

I did figure it that way originally. The problem with that is that way says getting a single 6 on 3 dice, re-rolling duplicate numbers, has the same probability as rolling a 6 on a single die, which can't be right.

What you are suppose to do is multiply the chance of failure together and subtract it from 1. So it would look like 1-(5/6*4/5*3/4) which equals 0.5 so 50%

Yeah, I defintely brain farted. I blame it on lack of sleep, caffeine, and public education not spending any sufficient time determining the probability of dice rolls.

In any case, my numbers of 61% and 36% may have been off, but 50% and 33% are both still pretty decent odds.

My list has 7 lvl 3 Heralds with a 50% chance each of getting Possession or Sacrifice.
Those getting Possession stand a good chance of turning into Greater Daemons, while those with sacrifice can attempt to summon lvl2 heralds each turn, who each have a 33% chance of having possession.

It is succesfull if you get it at the first, second or third attempt. So you add the individual probabilities and you get 3/6, which is 0.5, exactly what you get. You are not supposed to do it either way, it's just that sometimes it is easier to collect all the possibilities for failure rather than for succes.

e.g. if you want to get the odds of rolling anywhere between a sum of 3-17 with three dice, you can add the probabilities of 3,4,5..17 or you can calculate the probability of rolling 18 and substract that from 1.

You are right. It's the re-rolling duplicate numbers that complicates things. 6 dice would exhaust all possible options, so unlike finding to hit or damage percentages you can achieve 100%. My math was wrong becuase I didn't factor in the percentage chance of reroll to the rerolls chance of success. Which you did mention, I'm just saying it to illustrate my comprehension, Thanks for the help clarifying that.

Changed the Thread Title and Updated the original post to include the following

 adamsouza wrote:

I started this thread when I started my Chaos Daemons army, and have continued it throughout their evolution. If you have any questions or comments about Daemon Factories I'd love to ehar them. The people following this thread have been insightful and greatly helpful with this project.

Original Recipe Tried and True List

Spoiler:

Fateweaver - For Warp Storm mitigation and re-roll
Heralds of Tzeentch lvl3 x4 - All Maelific, all the time. Each Herald has a 50% chance to get each spell from Maelifc. 4 of them usually grants an excellent mix of Sacrifice, Incursion, and Possession)
Pink Horrors (12) x4 - All Maelific, all the time. Nothing is better than Pink Horrors becoming Greater Daemons, or at least summoning more Pink Horrors. Also, these are the wounds you sacrifice to sumon more lvl 2 Tzeentch Heralds.
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch x2 - Yoiur heavy hitters of the list

New and Sexy Dual CAD List

Spoiler:

Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch lvl3 (x4) - All Maelific
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc lvl3 (x3) - All Maelific, all 3 with Exalted Rewards
Pink Horrors (12) x4
Screamers of Tzeentch x9
Screamers of Tzeentch x8

Dropped the Daemon Princes for Screamers. The Screamers jet bike nature and slashing attacks allow them to a turn 1 threat to the enemy. They are ridiculously mobile and their Lamprey's bite rule makes them a threat to vehicles. If one of your heralds on a disc get's Cursed Earth (50% chance each herald) it opens up the combination with the Grimoire (Exalted Reward) for 2++ saves.

The list starts the game with 7 Psykers who each have 50% odds of drawing Possesssion, and 4 units of Horrors with a 16% chance at getting Possession, for an average of 4 Possessions turn 1 with 33+d6 warp charges to pull it off.

Those Psykers, who don't get possessed, and have Sacrifce (50% odds), can summon Lvl2 Heralds, who have a 33% chance each of having possession

I am looking for some clarification on how to build a 1000-1250 point factory (if possible). I mainly use (fluffy Nurgle) Vraks/IA13 list as a new player.and of course I would like it to be as competitive as possible, as I ran a Purge list and won my first game vs. a Harlequin/Eldar player on god like rolls with my Wyverns and Blight Drones. I am now looking to get more DS units on the field while retaining my Barrage/Blast artillery and Mutant/zombie tarpit. So of course I want to overwhelm with a factory. if I can at all. Please keep in mind I am interested in using CSM/Daemon list to do this not necessarily renegades. However when thinking on on this i ran across something I thought could be viable in accumulating WC's while still using my Vraks renegade's (CSM's)while adding in a AD of Daemons.

In the new Siege of Vraks I found I could get 12 WC dice for 470 points (2 HQ choice of one 5-man Psyker Coven, a single demagogue (as a lv2 Rogue Witch,) then one elite choice of a 5-man Psyker Coven for a total of 10 dice. Like someone already pointed out I don't have to use them to summon and the Coven still act as independent models similar to how Heralds work in the Daemon Codex. Stick them in a bastion (or whatever your fancy). This may seem expensive but they are only on the field to get the ball rolling while adding some cheap firepower (through the detachment) without sacrificing dice. What i really like is the idea of adding in Crimson Slaughter or CSM units (has to be one or other) as Battle Brothers running a CAD,or Purge detachment. Now i can get the rerolling tank buff and the rerolling DP in the same detachment.The Purge detachment gives you a stupid amount of elites options and plenty of troop slots a fortification and a Lord of War.

I know the rule of thumb is pick one thing, maximize it and be good at it, but as a new player I love the fluff of Vraks and Nurgle (All Chaos Nurgle,) and am just looking to try and make my list versatile but still fun and competitive.

I'm sorry, but I'm confused.

You want to build a Daemon Factory 1000-1200 point list out of Nurgle/vraks, with CSM or Crimson Slaughter Allies, using the Purge Detachment ?

Or do you want 1000-1200 point list Daemon Factory to ally with your existing forces ?

Adamsouza I sent you a PM. I think I might have confused myself posting so late at night. No I just want to use either a standard CAD or Purge detachment of Vraks Renegades with an allied detachments of CSM and/or Daemons. Is it possible to get some level of a factory going? I pointed out Vraks because I like Renegades and there is a contested rule in Siege of Vraks about selecting CSM and Renegades in the same Purge detachment. As it turns out there was an FAQ from FW stating the opposite, so meh. Of course I was hoping they were just expanding on how Daemonkin works currently but of course no dice it seems.

Regardless being able to generate 12 dice for so cheap has to be a good start given the possibilities of using the spare points to get more dakka and zombies!

I don't have the codex in front of me but, It's definitely possible to run a 1000-1200 point CAD of Daemon Factory. All the psykers in the Chaos Daemons codex can take Maelific, so they would all get Summon as a Primaris plus whatever they rolled. If you are dead set on sticking with Nurgle, your best option is to field 4 heralds of Nurgle. You could make them all lvl2 and give them the foci of fercundicity (?) that grants Feel No Pain to whatever unit they are part of.

Tzeentch has an easier time with Daemon Factorys in mind. Tzeentch heralds can be lvl3 pyskers, and pink horrors are all brotherhood of sorcerers. 12 Pink horrors generate 2 warp charges for only 108 points.

Again no codex in front of me, but I'm pretty sure you can grab 4 lvl3 Heralds of Tzeentch and 4 12 Daemon strong Squads of Pink Horrors for about 800 points, generating 20 WC, 8 casters, and 16 powers ( everyone also gets summon). On an average roll, 2 of your heralds would pull Possession, and you could trade them in for Great Unclean Ones. With 12 powers on the heralds, you should also get some incursion, and bring some more Plague Drones in as well.

800 for this detachment + 470 for your vraks WC coven and you would have something like 32 WC