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There you go lads, choose away.
Keep the new codex,
Change the mob rule
go back to old codex
old codex + new mob rules

Cheers gazzy

I'd keep everything exactly the same but with player allocating wounds himself and not at random. That's simply so time-consuming to emulate a d23 roll.

 koooaei wrote:
I'd keep everything exactly the same but with player allocating wounds himself and not at random. That's simply so time-consuming to emulate a d23 roll.

I agree here. Random is a little too random in this case. I would prefer something simple like - mob is 12 models or less then 1casualty chosen by the owner - mob is greater than 12 then 2 casualties. more like the execution rules for commissars. Randomness for the sake of randomness just slows the game down.

I do believe the last codex was a little too powerful with basically fearless with a big mob (although I liked it that way) but the new rule is better for small units. In the new codex in practice you only end up with 1 or 2 dead orks anyway and a lot of times none. It still takes up a lot of time though.

^

Not sure just killing 1 is alright because I think mob rule is better now, but I think D3 wounds instead of D6 would be very acceptable, because then, odds are that you probably won't even kill a boy, he will likely just be slapped a couple of times, any comments?

 rhinosaur wrote:
but the new rule is better for small units.

This gets repeated over and over, but it doesn't make it any more true. The ancillary change to Boss Poles that went along with the Mob Rule change was a sizable nerf for Orks.

old rule for small units: Ld 7 if you fail smack a boy and you get another shot to pass Ld 7. New Rule kill 1-6 boyz and your good.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
old rule for small units: Ld 7 if you fail smack a boy and you get another shot to pass Ld 7. New Rule kill 1-6 boyz and your good.

you mean kill an average of 1.45 boyz?

i think its better than killing 1 boy and HAVING to re take Ld 7 test again

Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character, which is necessary for a boss pole for everything but Flash Gitz), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

watch out titan streamdragon is becoming my favorite

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

just checking, when will you not have a character? you should always have a nob with boss pole, but otherwise, i cant argue with this fair play sir.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

Not to mention the potential chain reaction scenarios, involving pinning and 25% casualties.

For example, a unit of 12 boys loses three to a weapon which causes pinning, then fails the pinning test. They then take a casualty from mob rule and so have passed the pinning test.
End of the phase the unit has taken more casualties than 25% of their unit, so has to take a morale check. If they fail that then they will probably lose another boy.

 koooaei wrote:
I'd keep everything exactly the same but with player allocating wounds himself and not at random. That's simply so time-consuming to emulate a d23 roll.

Totally agree. The rule as it is doesn't bother me. Random wound allocation is a dumbass mechanic to begin with. It's easier on small squads, and not well thought out for the hoard armies. We honestly house rule it at my location just to let me choose, to save time and sanity.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

Not to mention the potential chain reaction scenarios, involving pinning and 25% casualties.

For example, a unit of 12 boys loses three to a weapon which causes pinning, then fails the pinning test. They then take a casualty from mob rule and so have passed the pinning test.
End of the phase the unit has taken more casualties than 25% of their unit, so has to take a morale check. If they fail that then they will probably lose another boy.

The rules do say 1 leadership test per phase for casualties so yeah that could happen.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

So what you're saying is, you'd rather not get any chance to save your dudes and just have em run away? Even if the chance is small, you have a CHANCE to keep them in play. But honestly, I can't ever think of a time I DIDN"T add a Nob to my squad with Bosspole. They are too important to not bring. Ever. EVER. It's 10 pts. Add him each and ever time. 15 with a Bosspole. A small tax to keep any unit on board. Even if the squad is super small due to hitting itself, that's more shots they have to fire to take you off an objective, or to prevent an inconvenience to a threatened unit.

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

just checking, when will you not have a character? you should always have a nob with boss pole, but otherwise, i cant argue with this fair play sir.

Well, you previously asked if I have characters "littered around everywhere"!

I tend to agree that a character of some sort should be in every unit, even just a unit upgrade character. Sadly, it can't change that Mob Rule was an overall merd. Still love my orks though.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

just checking, when will you not have a character? you should always have a nob with boss pole, but otherwise, i cant argue with this fair play sir.

Well, you previously asked if I have characters "littered around everywhere"!

I tend to agree that a character of some sort should be in every unit, even just a unit upgrade character. Sadly, it can't change that Mob Rule was an overall merd. Still love my orks though.

sorry, i meant independent

Melevolence wrote:

So what you're saying is, you'd rather not get any chance to save your dudes and just have em run away? Even if the chance is small, you have a CHANCE to keep them in play. But honestly, I can't ever think of a time I DIDN"T add a Nob to my squad with Bosspole. They are too important to not bring. Ever. EVER. It's 10 pts. Add him each and ever time. 15 with a Bosspole. A small tax to keep any unit on board. Even if the squad is super small due to hitting itself, that's more shots they have to fire to take you off an objective, or to prevent an inconvenience to a threatened unit.

Er... no? The post I link even does present corrolaries, one of which is that the new rule does allow you to pass tests you would otherwise automatically fail; my specific example is losing CC by 20 I think. The new rule would let you pass, in CC, on the roll of a '1' on the Mob Rule chart regardless of any other circumstances (e.g. a character or still having at least 10 dudes).

And as I've just said, I always want a character of some sort in a unit. Exactly for the reason you and I agree on: boss poles and character presence are super important for orks.

I am simply arguing the fallacy that the new Mob Rule helps smaller units. For the most part, it does not. The gains that small units get under the new rule are more than off set by the loss of reroll to LD that the Boss Pole change cost them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

just checking, when will you not have a character? you should always have a nob with boss pole, but otherwise, i cant argue with this fair play sir.

Well, you previously asked if I have characters "littered around everywhere"!

I tend to agree that a character of some sort should be in every unit, even just a unit upgrade character. Sadly, it can't change that Mob Rule was an overall merd. Still love my orks though.

sorry, i meant independent

Ah, fair enough. Since Mob Rule doesn't care if it's a regular character or an independent one, I didn't differentiate. Easy enough. We both agree units need an ork bigger than the rest in charge.

 streamdragon wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

So what you're saying is, you'd rather not get any chance to save your dudes and just have em run away? Even if the chance is small, you have a CHANCE to keep them in play. But honestly, I can't ever think of a time I DIDN"T add a Nob to my squad with Bosspole. They are too important to not bring. Ever. EVER. It's 10 pts. Add him each and ever time. 15 with a Bosspole. A small tax to keep any unit on board. Even if the squad is super small due to hitting itself, that's more shots they have to fire to take you off an objective, or to prevent an inconvenience to a threatened unit.

Er... no? The post I link even does present corrolaries, one of which is that the new rule does allow you to pass tests you would otherwise automatically fail; my specific example is losing CC by 20 I think. The new rule would let you pass, in CC, on the roll of a '1' on the Mob Rule chart regardless of any other circumstances (e.g. a character or still having at least 10 dudes).

And as I've just said, I always want a character of some sort in a unit. Exactly for the reason you and I agree on: boss poles and character presence are super important for orks.

I am simply arguing the fallacy that the new Mob Rule helps smaller units. For the most part, it does not. The gains that small units get under the new rule are more than off set by the loss of reroll to LD that the Boss Pole change cost them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Tiny_Titan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Yes. The end percentages of successfully passing the LD check (whether by dice or a useful result on the Mob Rule chart) are near identical in low mob number cases. The difference is that previously it was a single dude taking a hit, versus d6. In high LD cases (such as by adding a character), the reroll made the old boss pole vastly superior to the new boss pole.

agreed, but how often do you have characters littered around every unit? as i sad, i disagree with D6 and think it should be D3 or even D2

Check the chart. If you are not in close combat, and have no character (and thus no bosspole), the new rule ONLY helps if you are in close combat (adding about 7% to success chance). There is no other result on the Mob Rule chart that will help you (one requires a character, the other requires 10+ models). So the new rule does next to nothing for small units. The ancillary boss pole change actually HURT those units, instead of helping them.

just checking, when will you not have a character? you should always have a nob with boss pole, but otherwise, i cant argue with this fair play sir.

Well, you previously asked if I have characters "littered around everywhere"!

I tend to agree that a character of some sort should be in every unit, even just a unit upgrade character. Sadly, it can't change that Mob Rule was an overall merd. Still love my orks though.

sorry, i meant independent

Ah, fair enough. Since Mob Rule doesn't care if it's a regular character or an independent one, I didn't differentiate. Easy enough. We both agree units need an ork bigger than the rest in charge.

just an idea, what if the boss pole did what it used to do, and let you re roll leadership at the cost of 1 boy, but then IF you failed that, then the current mob rule then takes place as you have failed it. i feel like this would be better? best of both worlds for small units

I like situations when i loose by a lot but still stick in a fight due to mob rule whereas, previously i'd get swept having gone down to 10 or less models. Now i'm almost always there till the last nob. And the nob often remains that one man ork standing as he gets carried away killing off the rest of the squad restoring morale. It's hilarious!

I don't think I'd have a problem with that. Honestly I would almost even be okay with the "normal" d6 hits if there was no table to roll on. Just fail -> d6 S4 hits -> pass. Might be too good at that point though.

also keep in mind if you failed a leadership test in the old codex and ran away you could reroll it and if you failed that then you just lost a single turn of action with that understrength squad. it would then get 2 more chances to pass a Ld test of 7.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
also keep in mind if you failed a leadership test in the old codex and ran away you could reroll it and if you failed that then you just lost a single turn of action with that understrength squad. it would then get 2 more chances to pass a Ld test of 7.

reroll that fancy ld 3-5 (after calculating casualties) all you want - you'll just get swept with an old mob rule. While you have 3/4 to stick around after the failed morale check now.

 koooaei wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
also keep in mind if you failed a leadership test in the old codex and ran away you could reroll it and if you failed that then you just lost a single turn of action with that understrength squad. it would then get 2 more chances to pass a Ld test of 7.

reroll that fancy ld 3-5 (after calculating casualties) all you want - you'll just get swept with an old mob rule. While you have 3/4 to stick around after the failed morale check now.

^

indeed

Their are plus and minus for both, i prefered the old one because it allowed me to soak up fire without running away all the time. and for my big mobs of 30 the only time i lost them with a reroll was when they were down to under 10 models and usually by that point they were combat ineffective anyway

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Their are plus and minus for both, i prefered the old one because it allowed me to soak up fire without running away all the time. and for my big mobs of 30 the only time i lost them with a reroll was when they were down to under 10 models and usually by that point they were combat ineffective anyway

I guess if you wonna just field big mobs of 30 you may as well take the green tide instead

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Their are plus and minus for both, i prefered the old one because it allowed me to soak up fire without running away all the time.

Running away all the time?.. You have 1/36 to roll double ones on a mob rule to actually run away in the shooting phase. And that's after ld. Sure, it's gona happen from time to time in like 1 out of 10+ games but the times when you're getting saved by it in mellee or when reduced to < 11 models even it out.

If you don't like to run away on double ones with large squads, you have access to Ghaz detachments with it's +2 on the mob rule and a big bosspole. Or you could add Grotsnik or a stompa to make your guyz plain fearless again. Or you could run the named warboss (the one with shredding klaw) to reroll ld checks whatsoever. There are lots of options to minimise morale impact.

I also remember quite well how no-retreat wounds diminished our numbers before 6-th. It was clearly not a win-win mechanics like you describe. A bunch of khorne zerkers charging out of a rhino on your flank? you loose 10 boyz, than kill 2-3 zerkers in return and take additional 6-7 wounds after 6+ armor. Oh, and no fnp for you. That's how it worked.

We allready got our old WAAAGH! back and combined with 'ere we go it's a game-changing buff. New mob rule is not a plain buff - it's a mixed bag - but you can't get all buffed up without going

You also have a 1/6 chance to hit 6 boyz after needing to take a leadership test. 6 htis means on average 3 more dead boyz.

So if you like this because of small squads then 10 tankbustas lose 3 models and need a leadership check, they fail and go to mob rule and 1/6 chance to hit 6 more boyz with between 1-6 more dead orkz which averages to 3. So a 1/6 chance to kill 3more boyz meaning your squad of 10 just became 4 and probably useless for the rest of the game.