Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
A senior Australian surgeon has stood by widely-criticised remarks suggesting women in the profession should "comply with requests" for sex from male superiors to further their careers.
Vascular surgeon Dr Gabrielle McMullin made the remarks while promoting a book she has co-authored on gender equality.
Dr McMullin said on Monday she stood by the statement, despite heavy criticism from women's rights groups.
Her comments last week concerned the 2008 case of a trainee surgeon.
Dr Caroline Tan was a surgical student at a Melbourne hospital when she won a sexual harassment suit against a superior.
But, Dr McMullin claimed, Dr Tan had been "blackballed" as a result and had not been able to get work at a hospital since.
"Her career was ruined by this one guy asking for sex on this night," Dr McMullin said in the ABC interview.
"What I tell my trainees is that, if you are approached for sex, probably the safest thing to do in terms of your career is to comply with the request.
"The worst thing you can possibly do is to complain to the supervising body because then, as in Caroline's position, you can be sure that you will never be appointed to a major public hospital."
Speaking to ABC News on Monday, Dr McMullin reiterated her remarks and claimed she had been thanked by both men and women for raising the issue.
Her comments have been widely criticised by both fellow medical professionals and women's rights groups.
'Deeply insulting'
Michael Grigg, President of the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons (RACS), said the idea female surgical trainees should "silently endure sexual harassment" was "disappointing and quite appalling".
"The College of Surgeons refutes this advice emphatically. The inference is that this is what successful female surgeons and trainees have done in the past and this is deeply insulting."
Dr Grigg said complaints about sexual harassment were "taken seriously" by the college and "investigated and acted upon at the highest level".
Kate Drummond, chair of the RASC's Women in Surgery committee, told ABC that sexual harassment "does happen", but she said the idea that speaking out is a career-ending move is "incorrect".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/10 14:25:26
Well, she's right. While it certainly is wrong morally, getting your superiors worked up on you is a safe way to disqualify yourself from further work in that field.
Yep, she is right and it's a pretty systemic practice in professions that constitute closed groups.
Also the sheer idiocy of those so called "women's rights groups" in criticizing her for bringing the issue to the light instead of going after the institutions that actively harm those women that come forward with sexual harassment cases in the workplace just shows the sorry state that women's rights institutions have fallen in more recent times.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Although I don't imagine this is a problem solely present on our little Deathworld.
Anytime you have a self regulating industry you're going to have problems.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
You know if people could simply decline or accept someone's proposal for sex a date or relationship and leave it at that we would probably be better off. When someone finds someone else attractive and drops a few "Hot Coffee" hints, they shouldn't have to be afraid of a sexual harassment case. Now if a decline is held against someone and keeps them from promotions, then yeah they should have a case. No idea how it would work though...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/10 18:23:41
The fact that this sort of gak occurs and that people have had their lives ruined for standing up for themselves is fething infuriating. That a doctor gives her female students such advice, when said advice is aimed at protecting their futures, SHOULD piss us off. However, that she gives that advice shouldn't be what pisses us the feth off. What should piss us the feth off is WHY she felt she had to in the first god damn place.
Lord Scythican wrote: You know if people could simply decline or accept someone's proposal for sex and leave it at that we would probably be better off. When someone finds someone else attractive and drops a few "Hot Coffee" hints, they shouldn't have to be afraid of a sexual harassment case. Now if a decline is held against someone and keeps them from promotions, then yeah they should have a case. No idea how it would work though...
It's hardly that simple, though, and no matter the situations, approaching a coworker with sex is entirely inappropriate. Doing so is unprofessional in the extreme and anyone who does that should be reprimanded. That being said, depending on the circumstance, labeling it as sexual harassment might be extreme. However, for a person who holds a position of power over another individual to approach said individual with sex is so mindbogglingly inappropriate that it could only ever be considered sexual harassment, and any doctor who would do something so egregiously stupid as that should have their licence revoked and have the word "jackass" tattooed onto their forehead, for good measure.
Sadly this applies to pretty much any situation in a 'closed' social/work environment,
Don't complain, if you do your career is dented or dead however good or reasonable your complaint is
Police or Army personnel can't report each other , or complain about the treatment of prisoners/civilians
If you're a banker don't let anybody know your firm is on the fiddle
etc
and it's not only women... Can you really see it being a good career move to protest about sexual harassment from a woman (and yes it certainly happens)
It's hardly that simple, though, and no matter the situations, approaching a coworker with sex is entirely inappropriate. Doing so is unprofessional in the extreme and anyone who does that should be reprimanded. That being said, depending on the circumstance, labeling it as sexual harassment might be extreme. However, for a person who holds a position of power over another individual to approach said individual with sex is so mindbogglingly inappropriate that it could only ever be considered sexual harassment, and any doctor who would do something so egregiously stupid as that should have their licence revoked and have the word "jackass" tattooed onto their forehead, for good measure.
I kind of resent that since I met my wife at the workplace (even if she was the one that approached me).
Its just another example of cultural discrepancies, but its not considered inappropriate for a co-worker to invite another for drinks or going out or whatever, because there is no pressure on anyone to accept the invitation. In fact a very large number of couples that I know of met and started their relationship in the workplace.
However, it is considered extremely inappropriate for a superior to do the same thing to one of his subordinates because in those cases there is some amount of pressure involved, either real or perceived it doesn't really matter.
Shouldn't the advice be that folks should get together to do something about this and change the system? That channels should be established to prevent someone from being inappropriately railroaded?
It's hardly that simple, though, and no matter the situations, approaching a coworker with sex is entirely inappropriate. Doing so is unprofessional in the extreme and anyone who does that should be reprimanded. That being said, depending on the circumstance, labeling it as sexual harassment might be extreme. However, for a person who holds a position of power over another individual to approach said individual with sex is so mindbogglingly inappropriate that it could only ever be considered sexual harassment, and any doctor who would do something so egregiously stupid as that should have their licence revoked and have the word "jackass" tattooed onto their forehead, for good measure.
I kind of resent that since I met my wife at the workplace (even if she was the one that approached me).
Its just another example of cultural discrepancies, but its not considered inappropriate for a co-worker to invite another for drinks or going out or whatever, because there is no pressure on anyone to accept the invitation. In fact a very large number of couples that I know of met and started their relationship in the workplace.
However, it is considered extremely inappropriate for a superior to do the same thing to one of his subordinates because in those cases there is some amount of pressure involved, either real or perceived it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, I would imagine my views on dating in the workplace are probably a bit more conservative than most people. I blame this on the fact that my high school class numbered around 30. Bad experiences with gaking in a small pond, so to speak.
Anyway, I should probably clarify that I meant that would be inappropriate to approach a coworker in a work setting with a sexual request.
EDIT: Sorry if there was any confusion. I tend to get a bit iffy on details when I get pissed off.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/10 17:56:51
EDIT: Sorry if there was any confusion. I tend to get a bit iffy on details when I get pissed off.
Sorry I should have left "sex" off of what I said. I probably should have said something along the lines of a "date proposal". I was trying to keep in line with the OP link which I think is way worse. Telling people to just have sex to get the promotion is screwed up. I don't think a relationship proposal should be considered taboo, but if some asshat asks more than once for a date he should get a harassment case brought down on him. Currently most situations are: If you like someone at work, don't even think about asking them out or you will get you butt handed to you.
The women that brought on the sexual harassment suit against her superior won the case. But the simple act of filling the charges usually means that the person that makes the complaint never works in that field again.
The women that brought on the sexual harassment suit against her superior won the case. But the simple act of filling the charges usually means that the person that makes the complaint never works in that field again.
Which is even worse than the sexual harassment cases.
The thing is, every single system out there is like this. Those who complain instead of going through with the BS slapped on them at every turn usually have something else to worry about in the long run and it is almost always worse.
Stonebeard wrote: The fact that this sort of gak occurs and that people have had their lives ruined for standing up for themselves is fething infuriating. That a doctor gives her female students such advice, when said advice is aimed at protecting their futures, SHOULD piss us off. However, that she gives that advice shouldn't be what pisses us the feth off. What should piss us the feth off is WHY she felt she had to in the first god damn place.
Yeah, this.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
The women that brought on the sexual harassment suit against her superior won the case. But the simple act of filling the charges usually means that the person that makes the complaint never works in that field again.
I know she won, but what I was getting at is that if sexual harassment were taken seriously, there would also be a component that protects against reprisal.
Stonebeard wrote: The fact that this sort of gak occurs and that people have had their lives ruined for standing up for themselves is fething infuriating. That a doctor gives her female students such advice, when said advice is aimed at protecting their futures, SHOULD piss us off. However, that she gives that advice shouldn't be what pisses us the feth off. What should piss us the feth off is WHY she felt she had to in the first god damn place.
Yeah, this.
Agreed. Of course as Dad would say, there's the way things aughta be, and the way things are.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Every day, many women make judgments about where to draw the line when it comes to sexual harassment. If the person doing the harassing is your boss or a superior, do you complain? Will it jeopardise your career if you do? The harsh reality is that in male-dominated professions, sexism can be deeply entrenched and harassment routine.
One senior Australian doctor has created a storm with her remarks about sexual harassment in the medical profession, saying giving in to it can be the easiest path for women who hope to thrive professionally. Dr Gabrielle McMullin has cited the case of one young doctor who won a harassment case, but was then blackballed from major hospitals, saying it would've been better for the woman in question if she'd simply delivered the sexual favour asked of her.
Dr McMullin is a vascular surgeon who works at St George and Sutherland hospitals in Sydney. She's also a senior lecturer at the University of New South Wales. She joined me tonight in Sydney.
Dr McMullin, thank you very much for coming in.
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN, VASCULAR SURGEON: Thank you for having me, Leigh.
LEIGH SALES: In the book Pathways to Gender Equality in Australia you write that for women who study surgery, it's a generally hostile environment. What do you mean by that?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Because it's such an overwhelmingly male environment, there's a lot of male behaviour that goes on. Now that can be quite amusing, but it can also be offensive at times and confronting.
LEIGH SALES: So what sort of behaviour are you talking about?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Oh, sexual jokes, um, um, it's a very physically demanding job, there's a lot of stress involved. There can be a lot of temper - loss of temper and it's a generally high-pressure environment.
LEIGH SALES: Does it often rise to the status of sexual harassment?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: It doesn't often get that far, but there are times when it has. And my - what I've been trying to shed light on is that it should never happen. We should never tolerate it in the workplace and certainly not - women who've studied so hard to become a surgeon should never, ever be subjected to sexual harassment.
LEIGH SALES: It's interesting that you say that because what you've previously said is that perhaps women in the medical profession have to tolerate sexual harassment in order for their careers to advance.
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Unfortunately there are cases in which women have been targeted for sex and their refusal has led to the ruining of their careers.
LEIGH SALES: And can you give me an example of a type of case like that?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Um, Dr Caroline Tan was a neurosurgical trainee in Melbourne in 2005 and she had excelled at school and at medical school. She was taken under the wing of a surgeon who assured her that he would look after her and make sure that she got the right cases and that he would make sure that she did really well. And he was true to his word and got her lots of work, but he also kept asking her to assist him in private, which often happens with trainees, and then he started asking her back to his rooms for extra tutorials. And one evening she made the mistake of doing that and he assaulted her.
LEIGH SALES: And what happened then when she complained about that?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: She was told initially that, "Boys will be boys" and that she should not worry about it. But the response from the surgeon was to try and fail her. She was threatened with the failure of her career and she'd worked all these years so hard to get there and so she then complained to the College of Surgeons. She was told that sexual harassment made no - played no part in her assessment and that she was failing. So she then took legal action.
LEIGH SALES: When you were talking about that case a couple of days ago, you said that realistically she would've been much better to have given him a blowjob on that night. Is the system really that rank or were you exaggerating to make a point?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: For her situation, she may well have been better off in that she has never been appointed to a public hospital, despite sometimes being the only surgeon to - neurosurgeon to apply for a job. She is constantly looking over her shoulder. She has established a private practice, but she is - she has no support, no peer group, she's very much alone. So her career was ruined on that night, and if she'd just given in, maybe she would've got a great job.
LEIGH SALES: There's obviously an intersection here between idealism and real life, because ideally, you want women to never have to make a decision about that.
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Of course. Absolutely.
LEIGH SALES: But real life sometimes isn't as we would wish it to be. Is the solution though to it really to go along with it rather than to fight it?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: No. Of course it is to fight it. And what we need are better processes so that Caroline and all the other women that have been put in her situation are heard and are not punished for sticking up their hands and saying, you know, "I'm being hurt." They need to be supported and they need to be even - well, advanced in their careers as a result of it. They need reassurance that that will happen.
LEIGH SALES: The Royal Australasian College of Surgeons has come out and they're quite critical of what you've said and they've said, well, that they do work actively with hospitals to ensure that there's a safe educational and working environment and that to contend that reporting will impact on one's career advancement is simply wrong and ill-informed. What's your response to that?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Well, that 12 surgeons approached Fairfax Media in the last couple of days and refused to give their names because they were afraid of the reaction or the effect on their careers.
LEIGH SALES: And what response have you personally had since you've made these remarks?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: I've had a huge amount of positive feedback from people, other surgeons, female surgeons whom I didn't know about thanking me for standing up and bringing this matter to attention. I've had suggestions as to how we might fix it. I've had positive feedback from men as well.
LEIGH SALES: These days, you write in your piece in the book that more than 50 per cent of medical students are women and a vast majority of universities in Australia. Is it the case that things are going to change fairly quickly or are the power structures so entrenched that that would not be the case?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Unfortunately, it's not the case in surgery. So in almost every other discipline, women have filtered through and there's this concept of the leaky pipeline - you know, you put in lots at the one end and they gradually filter through, but it hasn't happened in surgery and there's been some discussion that it would take 175 years for it to happen at the present rate. Numbers in surgery in some places are actually decreasing.
LEIGH SALES: As you say, you've received a lot of positive feedback from people in the medical profession. There've also been lots of - there's been lots of criticism as well, including from the University of New South Wales, where you lecture, saying that they think that harassment should never be tolerated and they want to counsel you to ensure you don't give students that message. Do you regret speaking out on this in any way and what's it been like to find yourself at the centre of a storm like this?
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Um, it was an enormous surprise. I wasn't expecting this. It was perhaps an inadvertent remark or a remark - I wouldn't take it back now, because it has opened such a can of worms and I'm hoping it will be positive. There has been - it has gone so far and shed light on so many different people's circumstances that I really hope that we can start with something fresh and have and establish some institutions that will make a difference for women.
LEIGH SALES: It certainly has put the issue out there.
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Yes, it has.
LEIGH SALES: Dr McMullin, thank you very much for coming in tonight.
GABRIELLE MCMULLIN: Thank you, Leigh.
It obviously isn't a "Women, do this!" advice. She's just realistic.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
~1.5k
