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I have heard lots of people posting on here about joining the Destroyer lord to a unit of wraiths, and being able to keep up by using the jet pack assault move.

To be clear, if the wraiths have the d-lord attached them they can't move farther than 6" in the movement phase right?

If the wraiths go farther than 6" in the movement phase, is the d-lord is no longer attached?

And characters can't join a unit in the assault phase?

Thanks for help with this.

Those types of "workings" usually have the Lord up front, with the Wraiths "jumping over" him. They stay 2" appart.

The lord then Jet packs in the assault phase, Jumping in front of the Wraiths.

Think Leapfrog

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
To be clear, if the wraiths have the d-lord attached them they can't move farther than 6" in the movement phase right?

No. Please see 'Different Movement Distances Within a Unit' in 'The Movement Phase' section of the rulebook.

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
To be clear, if the wraiths have the d-lord attached them they can't move farther than 6" in the movement phase right?

Sorry, i thought you meant "farther than 6" apart" (coherency). Which indeed cannot be done (if they are to stay as 1 Unit).

If you mean "farther than 6" movement" (Wraith movement distance), then Ghaz has your answer.

It's tricky, but can be done. You'll need to leave some Wraiths behind (still in coherency) to let the D-Lord stay in coherence as well. If you want to use him as a tank, then the group will move slower (to let it catch up).

What you cannot do is move the wraiths farther than 2" from the D-Lord and, in his assault jump, put him near them and tell your opponent he's still in that unit. If you end your Movement Phase with an IC more than 2" from a unit, he's not with it anymore. So be careful with that.

I'm pretty certain that jetpack assault moves are done by a unit not by models within the unit. As Wraiths don't have the Jetpack type the unit can not make the motive and the D Lord is stuck at the back. The following turn the Wraiths either have to slow down or leave him.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
To be clear, if the wraiths have the d-lord attached them they can't move farther than 6" in the movement phase right?

No. Please see 'Different Movement Distances Within a Unit' in 'The Movement Phase' section of the rulebook.

Thanks for this, I guess I was thinking of the 6th edition rules.

 Sautek Supreme wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
To be clear, if the wraiths have the d-lord attached them they can't move farther than 6" in the movement phase right?

No. Please see 'Different Movement Distances Within a Unit' in 'The Movement Phase' section of the rulebook.

Thanks for this, I guess I was thinking of the 6th edition rules.

See also page 66 under THRUST MOVE:

"A Jet Pack unit that is not locked ... can move up to 2d6" in the Assault phase,"

So the unit makes a Thrust Move so the D Lord can't do it whilst attached to the Wraiths.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Sautek Supreme wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
To be clear, if the wraiths have the d-lord attached them they can't move farther than 6" in the movement phase right?

No. Please see 'Different Movement Distances Within a Unit' in 'The Movement Phase' section of the rulebook.

Thanks for this, I guess I was thinking of the 6th edition rules.

See also page 66 under THRUST MOVE:

"A Jet Pack unit that is not locked ... can move up to 2d6" in the Assault phase,"

So the unit makes a Thrust Move so the D Lord can't do it whilst attached to the Wraiths.

Then you are also implying that Jump Units cannot use their Jump packs if the entire Unit is not equipped with Jump packs, correct?

Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase

Just checking you are being consistent here.

RaW that is correct. A biker joins a Jump pack unit and it can't use Jump packs ever, it goes on the say the entire unit has to make the same choice when using Jump packs further highlighting that it is the entire unit or nothing.

My personal HYWPI for jump packs is that each model moves separately so I'd allow them. But out of movement phase movement is an all or nothing, so a bike unit can't turbo boost with an attached infantry IC, nor could said IC run and thus the D Lord can't assault move with Wraiths. This appears to be a deliberate move by GW to break up the D Lord and Wraiths combo so why break RaW to try to bring it back?

 FlingitNow wrote:
RaW that is correct. A biker joins a Jump pack unit and it can't use Jump packs ever, it goes on the say the entire unit has to make the same choice when using Jump packs further highlighting that it is the entire unit or nothing.

My personal HYWPI for jump packs is that each model moves separately so I'd allow them. But out of movement phase movement is an all or nothing, so a bike unit can't turbo boost with an attached infantry IC, nor could said IC run and thus the D Lord can't assault move with Wraiths. This appears to be a deliberate move by GW to break up the D Lord and Wraiths combo so why break RaW to try to bring it back?

I disagree with your HIWPI because it brakes one of the most basic concepts of rules for me, applying rules equally. When you break a rule apart and say it applies in one instance but not the ither, when they are interconnected and the same, it leads to both a perceived bias and punishes some units much more than others. If you want to say all mixed units, of which we have no rules on how to deal with since unit types are on models, can use their specific unit rules or not is fine, but to say you can do it some of the time but not the other is wrong.

 Nilok wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
RaW that is correct. A biker joins a Jump pack unit and it can't use Jump packs ever, it goes on the say the entire unit has to make the same choice when using Jump packs further highlighting that it is the entire unit or nothing.

My personal HYWPI for jump packs is that each model moves separately so I'd allow them. But out of movement phase movement is an all or nothing, so a bike unit can't turbo boost with an attached infantry IC, nor could said IC run and thus the D Lord can't assault move with Wraiths. This appears to be a deliberate move by GW to break up the D Lord and Wraiths combo so why break RaW to try to bring it back?

I disagree with your HIWPI because it brakes one of the most basic concepts of rules for me, applying rules equally. When you break a rule apart and say it applies in one instance but not the ither, when they are interconnected and the same, it leads to both a perceived bias and punishes some units much more than others. If you want to say all mixed units, of which we have no rules on how to deal with since unit types are on models, can use their specific unit rules or not is fine, but to say you can do it some of the time but not the other is wrong.

That's cool, as I say this is based on what I think the intent is. I'm happy to play RaW too (I don't have any mixed JP & Bike units). I believe that the intent is for an extra action you need the unit to be all be able to do that action, then each model can utilise its rules to move as far as they can for said action. If the whole unit can't take an action (like run, turbo boost or Thrust Move) then you can't take that action. However the entire unit can move in the movement phase so I'm happy to let their unit type rules modify that action.

Say for instance you had an IC with a special rule that allowed him to run d6+9". In a unit of Infantry I would allow the unit to run and he gets to move the extra 9" (as long as he maintains coherency). However he would not be able to running a unit of bikes nor wound they be able to turbo boost even though conceivably he'd be able to largely keep up.

Do you understand the distinction I'm making? As I said this is not RaW but my best guess at RaI as GW is massively confused over unit level and model level rules interactions.

I must apologize as I jumped the gun with my response based on the miss-quote of the Jump rules.

The quote that was used was incomplete

Jump Units wrote:Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly...

Skyborne wrote: When using its jump pack... a model can move over...

This is also the same from Jet Pack.

Jump/Jet Pack/etc units refers to models that have those unit types, not units comprised of them. I really wish GW will fix this confusing name as we have units both referring to a model with a specific unit type and a collection of models.

EDIT:
Reading further it seems like it switches in the rule that defines how it is used to model in a very confusing way.
I need sleep before I can speak on this more...

 Nilok wrote:
I must apologize as I jumped the gun with my response based on the miss-quote of the Jump rules.

The quote that was used was incomplete

Jump Units wrote:Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly...

Skyborne wrote: When using its jump pack... a model can move over...

This is also the same from Jet Pack.

Jump/Jet Pack/etc units refers to models that have those unit types, not units comprised of them. I really wish GW will fix this confusing name as we have units both referring to a model with a specific unit type and a collection of models.

EDIT:
Reading further it seems like it switches in the rule that defines how it is used to model in a very confusing way.
I need sleep before I can speak on this more...

Indeed, my take on the RaI here would be along the lines of:
They wrote the rules for "Units" to select movement: Jump / Jet Packs, but then explain on a model per model basis what this entails to.

As such a "Unit" of Wraiths + D.Lord may select to use their jet packs in the Assault phase.
As only the D.Lord "model" has a jet pack, only he can use the actual movement rules.

Same for bikes and Jump Infantry:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/631016.page#7502450

I'm saying RaW for Jump and bikes. Will need to check if it extends to Jet-packs and the Assault move, so i'm happy to leave it as HIWPI for now.
The OP only wanted to know about the rules, and that has been done.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
See also page 66 under THRUST MOVE:

"A Jet Pack unit that is not locked ... can move up to 2d6" in the Assault phase,"

So the unit makes a Thrust Move so the D Lord can't do it whilst attached to the Wraiths.

Had a look at the Rulebook for the entire Jet Pack Section, and you are indeed correct, the "Thrust move" can not be split up in the way "Skyborne" can.
Entire Unit only.

in this case, no reason to put a D-Lord with Wraiths... unless the enemy is coming to you.

Now, with Flayed ones...

Ya, it looks like the RAW is that Jump/Jet Pack/Bikes are unit locked on being able to do their special moves. This seems to be fine for IC, who become their joined unit for all rules, the only problem is for things like Tau units like Broadsides who can be both Jet Pack and Infantry.

The core problem here is the wording. Units do not stop being Units by being in other Units. Case in point is Psykers.

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

If ICs lose their unit status when they are joined to another unit, a Librarian could never use his Psychic Powers if he is joined to another non Psyker unit.

So a DLord would still be able to Thrust move even though he is attached to another unit.

Not sure if this is on the same track as everyone, but:

--It state that models can move their max distance in the Movement phase as long as Coherency is maintained (dont have my BRB with me, just paraphrasing).

--It also stated that in the Assault phase (maybe specific to charging though) that models move at the rate of the Slowest model.

That second part (plus what has been said in this thread) is what makes me think that a Dlord would not be able to preform his Thrust move while joined to any unit other than Destroyers
---------------------------------------
A similar situation happens when a Jump Infantry IC (lets use Baron, may he rest in peace) joins a unit of Jetbikes (say a Seer council). *units* get to Run, but bikes cant, so the Baron cannot Run while joined. Eldar Jetbikes get to turboboost/assault scoot, but not while Baron is with them.

Quoting from the BRB:

"Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency"

Bearing this in mind, the implications for a unit that has different movement rules are essentially as follows:

1) The D lord can freely use his jet pack assault move, so long as he maintains coherency. It does not matter that the wraiths do not have this type of movement

2) The wraiths will be slowed (have 2" subtracted from their charge distance and fight at I1) if the D lord charges through terrain. This applies only to the D lord (and/or Orikan/other IC if one happens to be in the unit). If a wraith charges through terrain but D Lord does not, the unit will be unaffected, as they treat terrain as open ground, so they did not actually charge through terrain.


You can also think of other special rules that function on a model per model basis such as jink. You could have a tyrant join a unit of gargoyles via a formation, and since he is a FMC he is able to jink, but the gargoyles would neither be able to jink nor be subject to the snap-firing restriction since they did not jink.

Fragile wrote:
The core problem here is the wording. Units do not stop being Units by being in other Units. Case in point is Psykers.

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

If ICs lose their unit status when they are joined to another unit, a Librarian could never use his Psychic Powers if he is joined to another non Psyker unit.

So a DLord would still be able to Thrust move even though he is attached to another unit.

RaW the Libby can't use Psychic powers (nor generate Warp Charge) when in a non-Psyker unit. Don't try to use the broken Psychic phase rules to justify breaking other rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:
Quoting from the BRB:

"Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency"

Bearing this in mind, the implications for a unit that has different movement rules are essentially as follows:

1) The D lord can freely use his jet pack assault move, so long as he maintains coherency. It does not matter that the wraiths do not have this type of movement

2) The wraiths will be slowed (have 2" subtracted from their charge distance and fight at I1) if the D lord charges through terrain. This applies only to the D lord (and/or Orikan/other IC if one happens to be in the unit). If a wraith charges through terrain but D Lord does not, the unit will be unaffected, as they treat terrain as open ground, so they did not actually charge through terrain.


You can also think of other special rules that function on a model per model basis such as jink. You could have a tyrant join a unit of gargoyles via a formation, and since he is a FMC he is able to jink, but the gargoyles would neither be able to jink nor be subject to the snap-firing restriction since they did not jink.

Number 1 is only true if you ignore the Thrust Move rules. If your interpretation is based on ignoring the rule in question that means you are on shaky ground. Whilst it is true the D Lord and Wraiths move at their own speeds independently, the D Lord is only allowed to make a thrust move if the entire unit does.

Jink is worded to work if only 1 model in the unit contains the rule, Thrust Move is not. So calling out Jink as an example has as much validity asusing stealth as an example and claiming the Wraiths get to make a Thrust Move too because in stealth one model having the rule enables all models to benefit.

Just accept that Wraiths got nerfed in the new codex and move on. They are still a great unit but now are a fast tarpit rather than a mainline combat unit.

You are correct on the wording of jink - I was just using that as an example of how models can have a special rule without the unit needing to. This works also in the case of a single model unit for the jet pack rule.

So to be clear, you are saying that IC units lose their status when joined to another unit. I would love to see anyone in the world say that they are going to play their psykers like that. Part of YMDC is saying "let's make a reasonable call based on what is in the rules", not just "let's apply RAW blindly and accept whatever comes of it".

If you want to play it that way, go for it. Enjoy your games and the ensuing arguments that will result. I don't see playing wraiths with D lord thrusting as against the rules for the exact reason I quoted previously, and your argument that IC lose their unit type when joined to a different unit has gone as far as it will with me. I'll only be revisiting this if any tournament rules it differently. Won't really be holding my breath on that one.

 luke1705 wrote:
You are correct on the wording of jink - I was just using that as an example of how models can have a special rule without the unit needing to. This works also in the case of a single model unit for the jet pack rule.

So to be clear, you are saying that IC units lose their status when joined to another unit. I would love to see anyone in the world say that they are going to play their psykers like that. Part of YMDC is saying "let's make a reasonable call based on what is in the rules", not just "let's apply RAW blindly and accept whatever comes of it".

If you want to play it that way, go for it. Enjoy your games and the ensuing arguments that will result. I don't see playing wraiths with D lord thrusting as against the rules for the exact reason I quoted previously, and your argument that IC lose their unit type when joined to a different unit has gone as far as it will with me. I'll only be revisiting this if any tournament rules it differently. Won't really be holding my breath on that one.

As i explained in the linked thread about Jump infantry, you are correct:

For movement, each model should be able to choose its "flight mode" or how far it wants to go. The problem is with the Jet-pack rule itself.

Jump Units have these rules:

"When using its jump pack (...) a model can..."
"If a Jump model uses its jump pack in the Movement phase..."
Or
"If a Jump model uses its jump pack to charge into assault..."
Or
"If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type"

We can clearly see that models with jump packs can select their movement independently to the unit (with the restriction: "Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase (...) Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement.")

The rules for the Thrust move, though, are completely different:

"A Jet Pack unit that is not locked ... can move up to 2d6" in the Assault phase,"

Where in "Thrust move" are you reading "model" ?
The rule is quite clear:
If the Unit is not locked in combat it can move 2d6". There is nothing that says 'a model with Jet pack can move 2D6" as long as his unit is not locked in combat'

Or anything similar. The wording quoted above makes it sound to me like the Unit would move 2D6 (per the rules) regardless of an attached non-Jet pack IC. (Because the rules just call out the Unit, not the models).
And that is why the Trust move is limited to Jet-Pack "Units" only. Not Jet-Pack "models" only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:
So to be clear, you are saying that IC units lose their status when joined to another unit.

Actually, you are also correct with this.

And in the case you state, only the D.Lord "Unit" would be able to Jet-Pack, not the Wraith "Unit".

The very big problem with that though, is that GW has never defined a thing such as "Multi-Units" before.... We only have one definition of "THE Unit", which, in this case, is composed of a D.Lord and some Wraiths.

It is still "A Unit" in terms of the Rules, not "2 Units within 1 Unit" (as no such rules exist). We'd probably like to see things like that exists, as it would solve so many issues (Detachments, Special rules, etc) but probably also create a bunch of other new issues.

So unfortunately, while discussing the current 40K rules in YMDC, you cannot have "Units within Units". It is 1 Unit, with multiple (different) models. And the Thrust Move calls out "Unit", which must also include the Wraiths in this case.