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Well, after a forceful endorsement of the Xuron 2175ET sprue cutters the other day, I had to order one in and try it I'm so sorry, but I can't recall who suggested it.

I decided to test them out, side by side with Privateer Press and Citadel clippers. Please keep in mind that the PP and Citadel clippers were picked up this last boxing day, so they are somewhat worn (the blades aren't brand-new sharp); if you compare them with my about-1-year old Citadel clippers (bought from when they were newly released), there's actually quite a noticeable difference.

I took photos of each clipper open and closed, and of a plastic sprue cut in half (from the same original sprue). As you can see on the "closed" picture, the Citadel one is actually the only pair that closes perfectly flush. The Xuron is slightly offset, and the PP set is quite badly offset. The offset causes the shearing and the rounded cuts, as well as the shearing appearance. Finally, there is an edge cut with a No. 11 blade, the gold standard.



I will let the pictures speak for themselves, but my conclusion is, the Xuron are a much better buy than the P3 cutters for almost the same price; the Citadel ones are a bit spendy, but they do give a slightly better cut. Essentially, Citadel gives me 1 edge that is great, and 1 edge that is decent; Xuron gives me 1 edge that is great and 1 that is crappy, and P3 gives me 2 crappy edges. However, really, none of them give a finish that is acceptable to me; they all need blade/file/sandpaper treatment. I don't know how the Xuron wear, but in my experience, if you like having nice sharp cuts, you pretty much have to buy a new pair every half-year or even more frequently. Since I always snip a little bit away from the model and file it down anyhow, I'm not so fussy, but I do enjoy a fresh pair every year or so (basically, at some sale where I can do better than 30% off MSRP ).

On my photos, you do need to click on the picture and zoom in to see it clearly, as the blowups are clipped at full 20 megapixel. The prices are USD, and aren't the BEST price you can find (for any of them), but a decent street price that a little shopping will net you.

It was I who suggested it, though it was hardly forceful. If you considered that forceful, then you MUST send me a drop pod model NOW.

Man, those citadel ones did do a pretty good job. How do they feel as far as snapping parts? The thing I like about the Xuron's was that they don't seem to move either half of the part being cut, it just slides right through it.

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/pliers/micro-flush-cutter-90708.html


best 4 dollars you will ever spend.

kb_lock wrote:
It was I who suggested it, though it was hardly forceful. If you considered that forceful, then you MUST send me a drop pod model NOW.

Man, those citadel ones did do a pretty good job. How do they feel as far as snapping parts? The thing I like about the Xuron's was that they don't seem to move either half of the part being cut, it just slides right through it.

Maybe forceful is the wrong word -- Enthusiastic!!

You have now programmed me into buying another drop pod the next time I go into my FLGS.... ARGH! (j/k )

What do you mean by snapping parts? Because cutting thick plastic dulls the blades pretty quickly, I use crappy dollar store cutters to separate all the parts from the sprue first, then use a nice pair to cut close. My rule of thumb in the last year has been Citadel ones for cutting plastic/resin, and PP ones for cutting metal, though recently, I haven't really done any metal models.

One thing I didn't mention is that the Citadel and Xuron cutters both *feel* substantial. They have some weight to them (the Citadel are heavier, a bit). On the other hand, the P3 cutters feel really light. I don't have a new pair, so I didn't do it on the compare, but Tamiya makes a reasonable pair of cutters too.

@Desubot - are those Harbor Freight ones tapered on the cutting edge? My biggest problem with cheapies, really, is that the other side (that's not shown) tapers inwards slightly, to allow for easier cutting into materials like metal. Sadly, that makes all the cuts taper towards the center like this -- ) ( Also, it puts the cut pretty far away from the model.

If those are flush, they will be the best deal for cutters hands down!

They are indeed flush.

exactly the same as the other "hobby" cutters.

The xuron's are off-set blades, so they never actually pinch the plastic so much that it pops off, but rather shears through it.

Think about when you are cutting bits of plastic and the smallest bit flies off at the speed of sound - that doesn't happen with xuron's because of how they cut, does it happen with the others? I would assume they are done on the same principle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can send me that drop pod whenever you like, too

This is the one I have, and it's lasted me for several years with no loss in quality since the first day I've got it. I've used it on resin, plastic, and metal.
http://xuron.com/index.php/main/industrial_products/11/10

Anyway, the Xuron blades are supposed to be offset, it is designed that way to shear through the material rather than "pinch" the material you're cutting. http://xuron.com/index.php/main/faq/2

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Anyway, the Xuron blades are supposed to be offset, it is designed that way to shear through the material rather than "pinch" the material you're cutting. http://xuron.com/index.php/main/faq/2

You know, you are right, and that makes sense, now that I think about it. I will read the faq later tonight . I do wonder why the cuts still look pinched with the shearing cutters. I wonder if a cutter would work with a blade on one side, and a solid block, on the other with a groove to allow the blade to slide in? That would essentially simulate a hobby knife cutting into an object, placed against a cutting mat. If you could achieve that level of precision, such a tool would be wonderful, and the company could continuously sell razor blades.

Anyhow, practically, I think Citadel and Xuron are equivalent cutters, as both do pretty good cuts that are decent to accurately cut close, but neither is good enough to cut flush to the model -- at least, not if you don't want to see it after.

Great stuff as usual Talys. Thanks for the post, I might pick up a Citadel cutter, though now I am curious about that harbor freight one hah.

 Talys wrote:
I do wonder why the cuts still look pinched with the shearing cutters.

Nature of the beast, I'm afraid. Whether the cutting edges are a generic wedge ( /\ ) or a flush-cutting one ( |\ ), there's still an angle involved - you need a bit of meat in the jaw to avoid flexation under pressure. On thin bits, the material can "squirt" out of the way on the angled side, leaving a flush surface, but thicker material is just too... well, thick . Before the blades can meet/pass and complete the cut, the shape of the jaws forces the material to the waste side away from the cut, causing stretching and tearing.

Even a hobby knife blade, having a wedge at the edge, is incapable of leaving a perfectly straight, clean cut. Making room for even the meager thickness of the blade means material is getting pushed around. If perfectly flush is what you need, you're looking at sawing, not slicing/chopping - there's no deformation if the material that would otherwise occupy the space where the blade goes is removed. Granted, even saws usually require cleanup, thanks to offset-tooth designs and human hand-wobbles, but you get the idea.

Another advantage of Xuron's offset blades is that they hardly ever wear, because the hardened points never contact each other. This also means you should always still cut competely, even if you managed to dull or nick the blades.

UPDATE!

I desprued everything except the heads from 4 boxes of Death Company (that's 8 sprues with parts for 20 space marines) from the Deathstorm boxes using only the Xuron 2715ET to give them a fair shot and to see how much I like them.

The TLDR -- They're great! Ok, now the long version.

Big Cuts - Where I had to cut a large piece of a plastic plastic sprue (meaning, I wouldn't be cutting close to the model), there was a clean and have a satisfying feel. Most importantly, like the Citadel cutters, the Xuron don't twist the model very much, which helps prevent delicate connection points that haven't been snipped yet from breaking or tearing. I generally do all the little, fragile points first, and then the large ones after.

Close Cuts - Cutting close to the model is actually both awesome and not-so-awesome in comparison to the Citadel cutters. First, the good: the Xuron almost never scar damage the model even when the flush edge is right against the plastic. This makes de-spruing really thought-free -- I can just zip through and cut very close fearlessly. This is not so with the Citadel cutters. On some of the larger connection points, if you cut close, you might damage the model.

Now, the bad: the cut, while always good, is pretty much never perfect, meaning there is always knife/file work, even on small connections. With the Citadel cutters, where the connection is very fine in at least one direction (like, long and narrow, or small diameter round), the cut is *perfect*, so much so that there is virtually nothing to do with a knife or file (I might brush it once with a diamond file anyways). On the Xuron, little connection points even on backpacks/jetpacks and such left me with knife work.

Sharpness - the Xuron cutters are very sharp. I'm very happy with that.

General Feel: the weight, grip and feel of the Xuron cutters are fantastic. The Citadel ones are also very good in this respect, and have the benefit of looking techno bad-ass. One difference that is noticeable is that the Xuron cutters are larger than most other cutters that I've used, so my hand was a little further from the model than I'm used to (not that this is problem).

Conclusion - They are a different beast than the Citadel cutters, I guess because they are offset. The next set of sprues I do, I think I will try Xuron cutters on the large connection points, and Citadel ones on the fine details to save myself some work. Or, perhaps desprue the piece first, but leave enough of the small connections that I can zip them off with the Citadel on a second pass.

I am glad I bought them, and would highly recommend them (surely, over the Privateer Press clippers!), though I don't like my Citadel ones any less

@oadie - I was hoping for someone to make a specialized cutter with a replaceable razor blade that looks like this on one end: |---- and like this on the other ===|. Think guillotine or cigar cutter. I have no idea if it would work, but the theory would be to do exactly what I do with a No. 11 blade, basically saving me a step, at least with some bits.

@kblock - I picked up another drop pod today. It's all your fault (I actually need at least 2 more... I don't have any Blood Angels themed pods at all, and blue drop pods with BA look stupid)

At the end of the day I haven't met a set of clippers that does the job to the point I don't need to pick up my knife and clean it up... by which point it makes little difference The only one I didn't really like was the old GW flush cutters because they would pull at the plastic, often creating a divot that needed to be filled (though sometimes there's imperfections in the sprue that need to be filled anyway, the old citadel cutters would create a divot even if there wasn't).

Beyond that, I have 3 sets of clippers I use and I just use whichever one is closest to me at the time because it seems to make little difference to the amount of cleanup work I have to do. If I had to choose, I'd probably say my favourite is an old pair of sidchrome diagonal cutters, because they intentionally leave a neat little protrusion. Unfortunately they are starting to get a bit blunt and I've heard the more recent sidchrome clippers aren't as high quality so I haven't bothered to buy another set.

The only other metric is sometimes on tight sprues I use my hobby store cutters because they are the narrowest and fit in to the smallest places.

If it's a genuinely delicate piece like I'm finding on my WW2 15mm PSC tanks, I don't even attempt to use clippers because the chance of damaging the model is too high. I just reach for my knife and cut it out, it's the only way I can be sure of a clean cut that won't damage the part. Though I am a bit of butcher, I use the rounded edge of my desk to support one side of the model while I push through with my knife.

Someone needs to create a set of clippers that are just 2 hobby knife blades that slice the part out and can be replaced when they go blunt

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
At the end of the day I haven't met a set of clippers that does the job to the point I don't need to pick up my knife and clean it up... by which point it makes little difference The only one I didn't really like was the old GW flush cutters because they would pull at the plastic, often creating a divot that needed to be filled (though sometimes there's imperfections in the sprue that need to be filled anyway, the old citadel cutters would create a divot even if there wasn't).

Yes, creating a "wound" in the plastic is sad. I'm not sure how others do it, but on infantry, I detach all the parts from the sprue right away and sort them into trays, so it's an awful lot of cutting, so I like it to be mindless. Any clippers that tear the plastic just make me mad, lol. With vehicles (or models with many parts), I have to be more careful; if I separate pieces from their numbers on something I've not built before, it could be lots of fun figuring out how it goes together

I know its incredibly sad and vane. but the only reason i bought the citadel clippers is they look kinda bad ass :( im so terrible lol.

They cut a lot better than my wire cutters in the garage though.

I figured that was your idea, Talys - actually had a response typed out, which was lost and I simply couldn't bring myself to rethink/retype it, at first.

The guillotine/cigar cutter blade part is sound, as both function like chisels - one edge is flat and the other angled, forcing waste material away in only one direction and leaving the opoosing side perfectly flat. Main issue I foresee is the other side of the jaws, in relation to actually getting the tool where you want it.

On tools like 'The Chopper', which are intended to cut strip stock, having a large anvil isn't an issue. It can even be an entire base, like a cutting mat. On plier-type tools, the anvil can be shrunk down to a size only slightly larger than the cutting head (like a rotary leather punch's little brass disk).

What happens, though, on a sprue? Parts are often three-dimensional and delicate. Gates to be cut may project from the center of parts that extend well above and below the plane of the sprue frame. A blade and anvil combination simply couldn't fit into the same sort of spaces that the tips of a clipper's tapered jaws could. Cutters with two blades work in these situations, in part, because their two jaws meet in the middle of a cut. and force is applied evenly from both sides.

On a blade and anvil setup, you're instead looking at cutting from one side with a stop on the other. If I had to cut some plastic 15mm troops out of a sprue for Flames of War, for example, I would have to mash the anvil against their faces while the blade contacted the helmet gate. The anvil would be on the edge of their little base inserts while the blade worked on the gates underneath. 'Cutting on air' can work, of course - this is effectively what we d with our knives and mats, but it would introduce torquing issues which would be harder to mitigate, in my mind, with a pair of pliers.

Your Xuron cutters are actually misaligned. They should be offset - but yours are ground incorrectly so that the offset is too far off. Send the picture to Xuron (the one you have should be fine) and they will send you a new pair (lifetime warranty and all that).

The offset is actually a great thing. Unlike the Sidchrome that Allseeingskink has, the blades never touch. This means that provided that you avoid paper clips and hardened brass (no guitar wires...) - the clippers should never dull cutting plastic, resin and pewter. I have had Xuron cutters for years, and haven't had to replace them for dull blades...though I do seem to have more than I could reasonably justify anyway...

Regarding your dream despruing tool... Cutting tweezers. It is like having two razor blades. I have a few pair, and they work great on delicate and well made sprues (i.e. - not GW plastics where they seem to think that the connection points have to be ginormous). On my various finescale and small scale models though, I can pop parts off nice and easy. The down side is that you don't have much leverage - so on those giant gates that some companies like to use, you can't generate enough pressure to actually cut through the plastic.

The ones I use are Excelta brand (model number escapes me and not at home to verify). For an extra fine cut - I have honed them so the cutting edges are perfectly in the same plane when closed. This allows me to scrape right up to the edge of something like a 1/144 aircraft propeller and pop it off the sprue without having to do any clean up at all.

Be prepared for some sticker shock though. $90 for a pair of tweezers can make most people think twice (or completely walk away). However, with the time saved on all the fiddly bits, they probably justified their cost in the first weekend of use on small scale models.

I have about half a dozen different cutters for different purposes (being a jeweller) but I found the ones that gave the best results and flushest cuts are these:
http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Swanstrom-Double-Ergo-Super-Flush-Cutters-Size-5/111713?Pos=7

Granted, the price is a bit steep if you have no other use for them then a hobby, but I expect anyone who does minis as a full time job wouldn't find it that terrible.

I'd say I need to touch up with a blade on only about 1 in 5 cuts with these, and they usually work just as well on pewter as on plastic. In the course of my jeweller work I also use them on sterling silver, brass and bronze with good results.

R.

@Sean - Thanks for the tip! I will email Xuron.

@Ranzetta - is there a jewller's drill press you might recommend? Pricey is ok -- I would like to be able to drill metal (and plastic/resin, I guess) parts, held with a vice, accurately. What I do now is align the part in a vice, mark a dot with a felt, mark the spot with an awl, and then use a pin vice hand drill. It works, but I would love to speed it up.

I also have a tamiya handy drill (which is ok, I guess) and a dremel press, which is pretty horrible for this kind of thing, at least with my limited knowledge of how to operate it.

I use these primarily... Lindström Ultra Flush 8148



They are made for electronics and are way to expensive for hobby... but since I have them and love them... why not

They are about $86

@Talys, well we have a full size electromagnetic drill press at the workshop, (not this one, but something similar to this: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/adjustable-position-electromagnetic-drill-press-with-no-3-mt-motor/985616 )

So when there's need for smaller drilling, I usually mount the foredom in the foredom drill press.

Honestly, for someone who decides to get really serious about modelling, I strongly recommend getting a foredom. It's like a dremel, but with much more power, sturdier parts, better control, gradual foot controlled speed and a flex shaft 30 times better than the dremel flex shaft...

Foredom: http://www.gesswein.com/p-11387-foredom-model-sr30sct-flex-shaft-kit.aspx?cpagenum=2&sortfield=&sortdirection=&perpage=

Foredom press drill: http://www.gesswein.com/p-10831-foredom-drill-press-dp-39.aspx?cpagenum=&sortfield=&sortdirection=&perpage=

Otherwise, I've functioned on a dremel, dremel flex shaft and dremel drill press mount my first 2 years doing my classes (didn't have access to the school equipment in the summer) and once you figure out how to set yourself up, it can work decently. I used 2 extra clamps to secure the press to the work bench. Make sure it's a thick heavy piece of furniture so it doesn't wobble every which way when you bring the press down. I also had the luxury of not having to remove the dremel from the press. When I needed it, I just screwed on the flex shaft and went from there.

Otherwise, there's this: http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Variable-Speed-Mini-Drill-Press/330012?Pos=1

but I'm not sure I'd recommended it, as I've seen two break within a year of being bought...

R.

Ranzetta, I just saw your post now. I must have missed this earlier. Thank you very much for the suggestions

I will take a look into those drill presses! The Foredom looks like exactly what I want, including the price range. I think the Milwaukee is a little spendy for me ($2000+) to help me do pinning


Automatically Appended Next Post:
UPDATE:

I got around to emailing Xuron, and here is there reply! What fantastic service.

Thank you so much for contacting us and for providing such excellent photos!

Based on the photo, I would have to agree that the overlap (off-set) of your #2175ET Pro. Sprue Cutter does look too great. It can be a fine line between tool little and too much – both will affect the cutting performance.

If agreeable to you, please reply with your mailing address and I will have a new Cutter (Pro Sprue Cutter) sent to you immediately… also, will include a postage paid return envelope so you can return the “not so good” one to us. I want our QC and Manufacturing managers to see this tool (for learning and QC purpose).

I did look (albeit quickly) at the DakkaDakka.com web forum – some good conversations going on and good quality information shared! Thank you for mentioning this.

Hope to hear from you again 

Best regards,
Abby Robey

 Talys wrote:
Ranzetta, I just saw your post now. I must have missed this earlier. Thank you very much for the suggestions

I will take a look into those drill presses! The Foredom looks like exactly what I want, including the price range. I think the Milwaukee is a little spendy for me ($2000+) to help me do pinning


Automatically Appended Next Post:
UPDATE:

I got around to emailing Xuron, and here is there reply! What fantastic service.

Thank you so much for contacting us and for providing such excellent photos!

Based on the photo, I would have to agree that the overlap (off-set) of your #2175ET Pro. Sprue Cutter does look too great. It can be a fine line between tool little and too much – both will affect the cutting performance.

If agreeable to you, please reply with your mailing address and I will have a new Cutter (Pro Sprue Cutter) sent to you immediately… also, will include a postage paid return envelope so you can return the “not so good” one to us. I want our QC and Manufacturing managers to see this tool (for learning and QC purpose).

I did look (albeit quickly) at the DakkaDakka.com web forum – some good conversations going on and good quality information shared! Thank you for mentioning this.

Hope to hear from you again 

Best regards,
Abby Robey

I actually have a smaller drill press that was designed for drilling circuit boards. Forget the brand off the top of my head, but both Micromark and Proxxon make a knock off of it (knock off probably isn't the best term - they sell theirs to consumer as opposed to industrial customers...). The hardest bit is a good clamping method. Miniatures don't generally have a flat surface to hold onto well that is in the correct plane relative to what you want to drill. Just as important as the press is a good quality ball vise that allows you to find something to grab hold of and rotate the mini so that it is facing the right way.

Regarding Xuron...yes. It is one of the reasons I always laugh when I hear people talk about how great the customer service is from GW. Most companies do what they do - few companies go above and beyond like Xuron and actually deserve to be praised for their service. Not only that, but providing a return postage package in order to get the flawed item over to their QC department to make sure it gets corrected. GW would have gone broke if they did that with Finecast or Forge World.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

I actually have a smaller drill press that was designed for drilling circuit boards. Forget the brand off the top of my head, but both Micromark and Proxxon make a knock off of it (knock off probably isn't the best term - they sell theirs to consumer as opposed to industrial customers...). The hardest bit is a good clamping method. Miniatures don't generally have a flat surface to hold onto well that is in the correct plane relative to what you want to drill. Just as important as the press is a good quality ball vise that allows you to find something to grab hold of and rotate the mini so that it is facing the right way.

Regarding Xuron...yes. It is one of the reasons I always laugh when I hear people talk about how great the customer service is from GW. Most companies do what they do - few companies go above and beyond like Xuron and actually deserve to be praised for their service. Not only that, but providing a return postage package in order to get the flawed item over to their QC department to make sure it gets corrected. GW would have gone broke if they did that with Finecast or Forge World.

Oh, Proxxon was a brand I had looked at before, but I couldn't find a setup in the sub-$500 range. Not that I looked that hard. And you're spot-on about the clamping mechanism.

I as very happy with the promptness of Abby at Xuron. However, in fairness to GW, every time I've had a problem with a GW model, however minor, I could swap it -- no questions asked -- at my FLGS for a brand new box (they say GW just sends them a replacement), or I could email GW with a brief description and photo of the part, and they'd FedEx me a new one, neatly packed in a plastic box that would be packed in a big box with foam chips. A couple of times, I've even gotten an entire frame when only one piece was broken. And, I've even emailed them on finecast stuff that I bought 5 years ago (because that's how long it sat on my shelf lol).

Thanks for the Harbor Freight clipper recommendation. Picked up a pair and they work pretty well. Will save wear and tear on the Xuron cutters.

this is crazy to me....why not just some walmart cutters? they work fine and all I need is a tiny amount of filing (sometimes)

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
this is crazy to me....why not just some walmart cutters? they work fine and all I need is a tiny amount of filing (sometimes)

Where is the fun in that? Also, the difference with good and bad cutter it quite significant if you do a lot of modelling.

Just to bring this thread back up again, did you get a new set of the Xuron 2175ET's to compare?

I was going to grab some cutters today, the GW clippers are similar price to the Xuron ones from the "local" shops, though GW is closer so I might just grab the GW ones if the Xuron ones aren't any better.

I need to check the cutters I've been using this year - I believe they are Xuron, and they are just worlds better than anything else I've used before!

Yes!

A couple of things. The new Xuron cutters were much better than the old ones. The GW cutters are ALSO slightly offset, and for the same reason (to make them last longer); they are just much less offset than the Xuron cutters.

The biggest difference between the new Xuron cutters and the GW cutters, frankly, is the feel (the GW ones have a metal grip, the Xuron ones a rubberized grip). The quality of the cut on the side that you shouldn't care about is better on the GW ones, but really... it shouldn't matter.

Which do I use? I have both on my tool rack. When I need to make a cut close to the model or when it's a more delicate, I will use the GW one. For de-spruing, where the cut is further away from the model, I'll use the Xuron cutters. But either would do the job just fine, IMO. I like both