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 CrownAxe wrote:

 Roger Dorn wrote:
6+ invul (Iron Hands) vs. 5+ invul (Red Scorpions) is a big difference.

They aren't invul saves, they're Feel No Pain. So you don't get FNP against wounds that would cause instant death (so S8 vs Smurfs).

And the big difference is that Red Scorpians only get to give FNP to their tactical marines. So all the big fancy units like bikes and centurians don't get anything from their CT.

I knew I should have brought my terminators! Power fists and storm bolters would have mulched him.

At 1000 pts it was tough. I prioritized the wrong units. I'm owning that I didn't set up my army properly.

 Roger Dorn wrote:

Feel no pain on basically EVERY unit he put on the table was ridiculous.

...don't play against decursion necrons.

 Roger Dorn wrote:
6+ invul (Iron Hands) vs. 5+ invul (Red Scorpions) is a big difference.

Severin Loth was the bigger issue. If he rolled a six for warp charges, he had 9 warp charges due to the lvl. 3 mastery, which made his 2+ invul a given. If the old rules were still in place, it would be okay to have the invul as an option because warp charges are more scarce so you'd have to pick the invul or the powers, especially the more powerful ones.

My opponent didn't have to pick and choose. He was able to get off the invul save, enfeeble, and endurance in the same turn. Ridiculous.

Wait - are you saying you could not kill a single 2++ T4 model with 2 wounds???

Bolters my friend do that. I speak from experience as a dark elder player. The 2++ save is a neat trick but hardly a big deal - you just have to change what you are shooting at the target. High volume/ROF weapons are more important than AP in this case

As a Necron player I find this 'red scorpion' chapter tactic to be completely over powered!

 Frozocrone wrote:
Their Chapter Master is also really annoying to face. D6+3 Wounds on any model or D3 Glancing hits before the game even begins - oh and your reserves come on a 4+

Even though it's not exactly YMDC thread, I'd like to make some corrections because OCD:
- it's D6+3 wounds to a unit, not model;
- it's D3 haywire hits, not glancing hits; although most of the time it's pretty close indeed.

This rule also have some issues, case in point: what is hit distribution against infantry unit? Gotta home rule that into "wound...".

 Drasius wrote:
Last time I read Severin Loth's rules wording, his 2++ came at the cost of a warp charge at the start of the movement phase. Since you don't have any then, it shouldn't still work, or has FW updated their rules and I missed it?

The issue is still there. Have to housrule in order to make it work. To be fair, FW rules are often poorly written and require agreements with other players in order for them to do something.

Poly Ranger wrote:
A cool trick or 2?
He:
-Infiltrates/outflanks 3 units and himself.
-Grants his unit shrouded.
-Grants his unit T1 stealth.
-Grants his unit scout.
-Causes d3 haywire or (can't remember exactly how many) wounds to a unit of choice before battle begins.
-Has sternguard ammo on a higher rate of fire gun.
-Acts as a comms relay for reserves.
-Influences opponents reserves rolls.

He is the most powerful SM IC imo. That is not a bad thing though.

As to raptor tactics - they are good, but not OP in the slightest.

A few corrections here too:

- T1 stealth and scout comes from CT and not IC rules;
- Special Issue Ammunition doesn't work with Malice's Salvo 2/4 as far as I understand. You are supposed to use SIA profile instead of Malice profile and it clearly states "Rapid fire", as far as I can remember. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Raptors CT itself is so-so IMO, not much better than RG CT, if at all. You play them for Issodon, not for CT.

 Glitcha wrote:
Even Loth activating his armor can be denied.

I am not sure. You just have to expend a charge, you don't even have to roll on it. There is not indication that this is the same as manifesting psychic power. But since the rule require houseruling in order for it to work at all, options do exist, depending on how your group decides to run him.

 Roger Dorn wrote:
6+ invul (Iron Hands) vs. 5+ invul (Red Scorpions) is a big difference.

I agree but it isn't applied to any units out there, just to vanilla tacs.

A few opinions on Red Scorpions:

Their other chapter tactic, while functionally "good", only really comes up against Eldar. Not a lot of other armies running mass pinning.

Having troop-wide FNP is pretty great especially on 3+ Armor units, but it has a glaring flaw: it makes Combat Squadding less attractive as an option. Doing so means 5 of your guys are going to be sitting there without it, which means combat squadding every last unit in order to mess with other people's target priorities hurts your troops now.

As has been stated several times, it's just for Tactical Squad Sgt and Vet Sgt. Meaning, it's just on your basic troops. If you wanna argue one way or the other, just shoot Forgeworld's rules guys an e-mail. They are actually super prompt. It's amazing their level of customer service compared to GW despite being owned by the same corporation.

Also it clearly states in the rule they need the Narthicium modeled on their guy. No narthicium, no FNP. Just because it's a free upgrade doesn't mean people actually have it. I'm normally not much of a stickler on WYSIWYG but I am for this specific instance.

The biggest thing they've got going for them is, as you said, Sevrin Loth. He's a beast. He's also 175 points, so at least people are paying for the beastliness. And while what he did was pretty brutal, just be glad he didn't do some of the other shenanigans you can do with him like guaranteed Invisibility, the single most broken psychic power in the whole game.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Carab Culln is pretty solid? His version of Smash attacking is it's own rule rather than the BRB version, so it didn't get nerfed alongside the change from 6th to 7th. 215 points for a terminator chapter master with S8 AP2 I5 and has Eternal Warrior is cool in my book. If only terminators could sweeping advance so his warlord trait didn't actively hurt him.

You havent seen the Pre heresy Imperial fist legion tactics......

+1 BS for shooting all bolter weaponries,meaning +2 too hit all the time for bolter wielding marines

There's no such thing as pre-heresy Chapter Tactics.

really not that bad, and it could have been way worse. Isntad of calling something over powered, think about flaws with it, I.E. anything above strength 8

Red scorpions are only broken because their chapter tactics include a mandatory special character called sevrin loth.

Other than that most of them are sub par at best.

None are even close to Ultras or White Scars chapter tactics

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There's no such thing as pre-heresy Chapter Tactics.

Did anyone say that there was?

Could I just say because 2 people have tried to correct me on this... issodon grants his unit scout and T1 stealth. Yes that is because of the chapter tactics... but he still grants his unit scout and T1 stealth. I am not incorrect. I didn't realise I had to spell out how he does it.

There was a thread recently where a person had emailed FW about whether special issue ammunition works with Malices profile and they confirmed it did. I don't know how legitimate that is, but FW will probably send the same response to the question if other people want to query it.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Could I just say because 2 people have tried to correct me on this... issodon grants his unit scout and T1 stealth. Yes that is because of the chapter tactics... but he still grants his unit scout and T1 stealth. I am not incorrect. I didn't realise I had to spell out how he does it.

There was a thread recently where a person had emailed FW about whether special issue ammunition works with Malices profile and they confirmed it did. I don't know how legitimate that is, but FW will probably send the same response to the question if other people want to query it.

Their point was, however, that it isn't Issodon being op in that case. A regular Captain would accomplish the same feat.

Yes but it is two of the many things he does. I was listing what he does.

Man lots of people hating on tactical squads. Guy at my local GW basically runs the ultramarine CT with tons of them and wrecks most guys he plays. don't discount the troops!

anyways I play raptors and issodon a lot as I like the infiltrate on my RG, and it can work and it can't. Infiltrating shrouded centurions are awesome, but they can be countered and destroyed easily. Rending on bolters are awesome, but if your like me it doesn't really matter if you can't roll a six.

Poly Ranger wrote:
There was a thread recently where a person had emailed FW about whether special issue ammunition works with Malices profile and they confirmed it did. I don't know how legitimate that is, but FW will probably send the same response to the question if other people want to query it.

Depends on what do you mean by "working with Malice". That may just mean that Malice counts as weapon you can use with SIA, which gives you access to SIA profiles. I didn't see their response obviously, so I can't comment on that. I have only ever seen them commenting on combining LM with SIA (you can), LM on Relentless units (you should stay still, but you can assault afterwards), LM on Hurricane bolters (you can't) and such.
Maybe it is indeed worth e-mailing them just to add to existing collection of FW responses because sometimes they suggest playing in a way that isn't exactly RAW, for better or worse. At very least you can expect FW to rephrase RAW in the future since it looks like they will get to Badab within 2 years or so.

Take Ilias and see what why people hate power swords.....jesus the man cant fight his way out of a wet noodle. Doesnt even have melta bombs, and his shooting profile is meh at best.

You are taking him ONLY for his special rules.

Yep his special rules are that good!

They're still just tactical squads...

 Barrogh wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Their Chapter Master is also really annoying to face. D6+3 Wounds on any model or D3 Glancing hits before the game even begins - oh and your reserves come on a 4+

Even though it's not exactly YMDC thread, I'd like to make some corrections because OCD:
- it's D6+3 wounds to a unit, not model;
- it's D3 haywire hits, not glancing hits; although most of the time it's pretty close indeed.

This rule also have some issues, case in point: what is hit distribution against infantry unit? Gotta home rule that into "wound...".

 Drasius wrote:
Last time I read Severin Loth's rules wording, his 2++ came at the cost of a warp charge at the start of the movement phase. Since you don't have any then, it shouldn't still work, or has FW updated their rules and I missed it?

The issue is still there. Have to housrule in order to make it work. To be fair, FW rules are often poorly written and require agreements with other players in order for them to do something.

Poly Ranger wrote:
A cool trick or 2?
He:
-Infiltrates/outflanks 3 units and himself.
-Grants his unit shrouded.
-Grants his unit T1 stealth.
-Grants his unit scout.
-Causes d3 haywire or (can't remember exactly how many) wounds to a unit of choice before battle begins.
-Has sternguard ammo on a higher rate of fire gun.
-Acts as a comms relay for reserves.
-Influences opponents reserves rolls.

He is the most powerful SM IC imo. That is not a bad thing though.

As to raptor tactics - they are good, but not OP in the slightest.

A few corrections here too:

- T1 stealth and scout comes from CT and not IC rules;
- Special Issue Ammunition doesn't work with Malice's Salvo 2/4 as far as I understand. You are supposed to use SIA profile instead of Malice profile and it clearly states "Rapid fire", as far as I can remember. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Raptors CT itself is so-so IMO, not much better than RG CT, if at all. You play them for Issodon, not for CT.

 Glitcha wrote:
Even Loth activating his armor can be denied.

I am not sure. You just have to expend a charge, you don't even have to roll on it. There is not indication that this is the same as manifesting psychic power. But since the rule require houseruling in order for it to work at all, options do exist, depending on how your group decides to run him.

 Roger Dorn wrote:
6+ invul (Iron Hands) vs. 5+ invul (Red Scorpions) is a big difference.

I agree but it isn't applied to any units out there, just to vanilla tacs.

Thanks for the correction - my usual Raptors opponent just targets my Flyrants with Issodon so I've just become accustomed to model

Yes, Lias is auto-include in a Raptors army. Reserve manipulation is good, hindering opponent's reserves is good, causing damage before the game begins is good, added all together = amazing

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There's no such thing as pre-heresy Chapter Tactics.

Did anyone say that there was?

Pertruabo wrote:
You havent seen the Pre heresy Imperial fist legion tactics......

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There's no such thing as pre-heresy Chapter Tactics.

Did anyone say that there was?

Pertruabo wrote:
You havent seen the Pre heresy Imperial fist legion tactics......

Legion tactics != Chapter Tactics

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Red Scorpions CT are OP? Really? All it gives them (apart from a few minor relic weapons in IA4) is apothecaries in tactical squads. Tactical squads. Kill the sergeant and it's gone. The reroll pinning tests ability is largely useless in 7th where barrages and snipers no longer have pinning. Culln is a decent beatstick character, but nothing compared to Smashbane or Smashfether. Loth is a good psyker, but not better than Tigurius. There are certainly OP things in 40K, but Red Scorpions (and FW in general) aren't among them.

Are the apothecary free? if so then I strongly disagree with you that red scorpion are not op. They get something good for the cost of nothing then that is just unfair.

 Filch wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Red Scorpions CT are OP? Really? All it gives them (apart from a few minor relic weapons in IA4) is apothecaries in tactical squads. Tactical squads. Kill the sergeant and it's gone. The reroll pinning tests ability is largely useless in 7th where barrages and snipers no longer have pinning. Culln is a decent beatstick character, but nothing compared to Smashbane or Smashfether. Loth is a good psyker, but not better than Tigurius. There are certainly OP things in 40K, but Red Scorpions (and FW in general) aren't among them.

Are the apothecary free? if so then I strongly disagree with you that red scorpion are not op. They get something good for the cost of nothing then that is just unfair.

It's called Chapter Tactics, and it's part of the rules for Codex: Space Marines armies, and they're all "free," so your argument is irrelevant. Imperial Fists pay nothing for their tactics. Ultramarines pay nothing for their tactics. White Scars pay nothing for their tactics. Iron Hands pay nothing for their tactics, and so on.

In truth, Red Scorpions actually do have to pay for their Chapter Tactics with the disadvantage of not being able to voluntarily Go to Ground.

Also their tactics make it so they cant take camo cloaks nor go to ground. Huge draw back.

 Filch wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Red Scorpions CT are OP? Really? All it gives them (apart from a few minor relic weapons in IA4) is apothecaries in tactical squads. Tactical squads. Kill the sergeant and it's gone. The reroll pinning tests ability is largely useless in 7th where barrages and snipers no longer have pinning. Culln is a decent beatstick character, but nothing compared to Smashbane or Smashfether. Loth is a good psyker, but not better than Tigurius. There are certainly OP things in 40K, but Red Scorpions (and FW in general) aren't among them.

Are the apothecary free? if so then I strongly disagree with you that red scorpion are not op. They get something good for the cost of nothing then that is just unfair.

And it is still worse than IH CT since IH is army wide, while RS is only from the Apothecaries so snipe-able.