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Martel732 wrote:
"Charging SW is a bit scarier than charging BA"

They have triple the attacks. That's more than a "bit".

All this being said, though, I think the same kinds of lists fold to drop lists and the same kinds weather the storm and crush drop lists regardless of who is dropping.

By personal biggeest fear is a drop list that draws assault Orks, Nids, or Chaos Demons. There is literally zero chance I can do enough damage with a BA alpha strike to not get erased on turn two. SW, on the other hand, are right at home.

As you have clearly pointed out it depends on the army you'd vs. I'd argue I'd rather have ba vs orks and Daemons as flamers are magic vs them.

Also why fear charging sw. Last game I played I just rotated my force to get my sang guard to charge the most dangerous looking pod unit, needless to say they all died before having a chance to hit me. The others I just shot at and made sure they couldn't charge me. Just dont charge sw unless your i5 or more resilient than then.

Not all armies have I5 charge on 2+ armor units with power weapons. Change your opponent to a BA list and charge them with the sang guard; the slaughter is even worse.

The difference is that a spoiling assault from practically any unit ruins the BA's day; your opponent doesn't have to be more resilient or I5.

As for Orks and Daemons, I personally find it difficult to bring large numbers of flamers to bear that are spread across many units. At any rate, SW get flamers too, just not as many heavy flamers.

SGTPozy wrote:
Then why aren't Space Wolves winning the poll? If what you both say is true then wouldn't the poll reflect that?

Do you know what a appeal to majority fallacy is? Your entire argument hinges on it, which makes it kind of suck.

Don't worry, it's not even a real majority.

How about we agree both sw and ba are the best depending on what you are facing or what your game plan is. Combined wolf blood wins

dark_red wrote:
How about we agree both sw and ba are the best depending on what you are facing or what your game plan is. Combined wolf blood wins

Fair enough. If it were a poll option, I'd choose it.

I like the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics, with Pedro Cantor's Stenrguard jumping out of drop pods.

Crimson Fists definitely deserve a mention for super Sternies.

IH 6+ FNP helps a little, too.

If you're podding a ton of Tacs, twin linking them t1 with UM can be great. Throw in Tiggy or Calgar if you want, too.

Sallies love their Flamers and Meltas. Which are great for Pods.

Each of these can be quite nice, but I think most agree SW and BA are the two best? With disagreement therein?

(It looks like the majority would probably say BA, as they have the majority between those two, but it isn't a strong majority, and good points are being made on both sides.)

Does that concisely describe the discussion so far?

Yes, it does.

What a surprise, Blood Angels are still winning with 31% of people having the correct opinion

SGTPozy wrote:
What a surprise, Blood Angels are still winning with 31% of people having the correct opinion

Congrats on not being able to refute the points that were made by me, Martel and BlaxicanX regarding the issue of majority fallacy.

"majority fallacy
Strategy error which leads to the mistaken belief that the largest segment of a market is the most lucrative. In reality, however, it may be the least profitable one due to the intense rivalry among a large number of competitors."

It's hardly intense rivalry since BA are far more popular than the next two.

That's BlaxicanX's point addressed.

Ultras is the best. 2 rounds of full twin linked on all tactical is game changing. Reroll snap shots another turn to nape flyers. Then chose to pass or fail any moral check.

 Grimskul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Then why aren't Space Wolves winning the poll? If what you both say is true then wouldn't the poll reflect that?

Just because the "majority" thinks something is true doesn't mean it is. Just like how most people back then used to believe that the sun orbited the earth rather than the other way around and Galileo was imprisoned for saying otherwise. Also in terms of "winning" with BA only having 11% more than SW or Salamanders I think its only a marginal lead, not as much as you seem to claim it to be.

Now your point:

Just because a few 'veterans' believe something it doesn't mean that's true either. Why should I believe Martel and you over the majority of voters?

Martel seems to believe that you combine everything (so all non-BA armies) against the one that someone is arguing for. I showed how idiotic that was with my London population example.

Now on to Martel... What has he said that's relevant (not being rude but I geniunly don't know what I am supposed to address).

Xeno,
Ultras need Calgar to have fully two turns of twin linked Tacs. Worth quite a bit, sure. But it is quite a bit of points.

Pozy,
Since you love definitions:
"Majority Fallacy": See above.
"majority" fallacy: A fallacy (flawed logic) in regards to the term "majority".

The relevant fallacy was pointed out above. The definition you are using explicitly refers to a comparison between two, and only two, groups.

What good is further pushing your alternate definition of terms in the faces of those that disagree with them? Why post if you have nothing further to add?

For myself, if the other guy was bring pods, I personally would rather it be BA over pretty much anything else.

The thing is, when you know its coming, surviving that turn one alpha strike is manageable. And with BA, once the alpha hits, now, I only have to deal with small squads of guys. This can even be made easier if I have anything that has interceptor as you can make those small squads even smaller before they do anything.

However, with any of the other armies your looking at having to deal with squads of 8-10 guys. Some have a 2+ armor guy in there to tank return fire / assaults.

Its possible that BA might have the stronger inital hit, but come turns 4 - 7, I think the other drop pod armies have a much stronger chance to continue the hurt all game long.

Some of this might also be because back when I played, one of my regular opponents was BA, so I know them pretty well. And BA are just not scary when they don't charge.

 Jayden63 wrote:
For myself, if the other guy was bring pods, I personally would rather it be BA over pretty much anything else.

The thing is, when you know its coming, surviving that turn one alpha strike is manageable. And with BA, once the alpha hits, now, I only have to deal with small squads of guys. This can even be made easier if I have anything that has interceptor as you can make those small squads even smaller before they do anything.

However, with any of the other armies your looking at having to deal with squads of 8-10 guys. Some have a 2+ armor guy in there to tank return fire / assaults.

Its possible that BA might have the stronger inital hit, but come turns 4 - 7, I think the other drop pod armies have a much stronger chance to continue the hurt all game long.

This is my experience against other BA lists as well. That's why I don't do that.

Bharring wrote:
Xeno,
Ultras need Calgar to have fully two turns of twin linked Tacs. Worth quite a bit, sure. But it is quite a bit of points.

Pozy,
Since you love definitions:
"Majority Fallacy": See above.
"majority" fallacy: A fallacy (flawed logic) in regards to the term "majority".

The relevant fallacy was pointed out above. The definition you are using explicitly refers to a comparison between two, and only two, groups.

What good is further pushing your alternate definition of terms in the faces of those that disagree with them? Why post if you have nothing further to add?

I had to respond because I was asked why I hadn't.

I'm aware that certain people disagree with some definitions (eventhouh they are still correct) hence why I only responded when I was asked to as I've given up on convincing certain members since their views will never change.

SGTPozy wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Xeno,
Ultras need Calgar to have fully two turns of twin linked Tacs. Worth quite a bit, sure. But it is quite a bit of points.

Pozy,
Since you love definitions:
"Majority Fallacy": See above.
"majority" fallacy: A fallacy (flawed logic) in regards to the term "majority".

The relevant fallacy was pointed out above. The definition you are using explicitly refers to a comparison between two, and only two, groups.

What good is further pushing your alternate definition of terms in the faces of those that disagree with them? Why post if you have nothing further to add?

I had to respond because I was asked why I hadn't.

I'm aware that certain people disagree with some definitions (eventhouh they are still correct) hence why I only responded when I was asked to as I've given up on convincing certain members since their views will never change.

The main issue that me and the others are pointing out is that there isn't an argument from you that isn't based on the polls being edged towards the BA. Its all semantics on definitions rather than real input with regards to how BA are better than Space Wolves. I don't seem to recall you giving us a concrete rebuttle as to how BA are much more suspectible to being charged and countered by charging/shooting enemies after their initial drop (due to lacking the initiative and strength boost from FC since they can't charge after coming in via drop-pod) whereas the Space Wolves have counter-attack and the ability to take CCW on their Grey Hunters so they are more risky and harder to mop up with CC. Both have issues with interceptor and shooting but Space Wolves also have damage soakers that BA lack like Storm-Shield toting Dreadnoughts.

We would be much more receptive to your posts if you did more than keep pointing at the poll numbers and saying "Look I'm right!"

He's not going to give an argument.

Blood Angels because you can take ASM give them 2 meltas, a combi melta and a mb + drop pod for cheaper than any of the other Marines.

I'm going to say Space Wolves over Blood Angels, though I haven't really gamed much this edition, just glancing over the rules the Space Wolves seem much more flexible of an army to go drop podding about. BA seems more like a game of rock-paper-scissors that you'll lose against many (most?) opponents.

I'm obviously not familiar enough with Salamanders because I'm not sure why they have been voted so high?

Bharring wrote:
Xeno,
Ultras need Calgar to have fully two turns of twin linked Tacs. Worth quite a bit, sure. But it is quite a bit of points.

Pozy,
Since you love definitions:
"Majority Fallacy": See above.
"majority" fallacy: A fallacy (flawed logic) in regards to the term "majority".

The relevant fallacy was pointed out above. The definition you are using explicitly refers to a comparison between two, and only two, groups.

What good is further pushing your alternate definition of terms in the faces of those that disagree with them? Why post if you have nothing further to add?

Yeah well I was kinda assuming that calgar is included in this best drop army tactic. Calgar is expensive no doubt - but he gives you so much. In terms of brutishness his sheer CC power is right up there with some of the most beastly units in all armies - and an ap2 storm bolter lol and Relentless for his orbital bombardment. His main value comes from the double doctrine and leadership functions for your whole army. The biggest fall of marine hordes is CC squads hiding in CC with unbreakable marine squads. The ability to chose to fail is huge, if you do and they don't catch you - your whole army can now shoot them. If they catch you, so what! ATSKNF says I don't care. Finally, ATSKNF does something useful for a change. In any case I think the Ultra drop works the best because it gives you the option to TL all heavy and special weapons in your tactical s - so it's kinda like salamanders +1.

Grimskul, that's fair enough then. I haven't provided facts myself because others have done it and I see no need in repeating it. For example LValx has given a reason which I agree with.

Now you Martel, if you have nothing useful to contribute other than personally attacking me, I suggest not posting at all.

I can understand where people are coming from with the Space Wolves, however I have seen 10x man Assault Squads of BA do very well, either equipped with Melta's and Inferno Pistols or Plasma and Flamers. Both have there strengths and weaknesses but again it can boil down to a persons meta or a persons experience with a particular army.

And to Clarify: THIS WAS MADE TO SEE PEOPLES OPINIONS ON WHY THEY FEEL THIS PARTICULAR ARMY IS THE BETTER DROP POD ARMY, NOT WHICH ONE IS THE BEST.

Everyone is entitled to there opinions but I agree you can't say that is sucks without an evidence or a valid Argument so I feel thats what people need to understand. Me personally, I think Space Wolves are a good Drop Pod List, but I feel that a lot of there stuff gets wasted, as the only way to get 3x Special Weapons in a Squad of Grey Hunters is to take 10x of them and then upgrade a model to a Wolf Guad for there Sgt. The appeal of the Blood Angels is that yes, they can field 5x man suicide squads of melta with there Assault Marines, but why run them only as 5x man? 10x Man Assault Squads w/Plasma is pretty nasty and I have seen and tested this out while running the Fleash Tearers formation, as you can get 10x Squads of Scoring Units (4x Tactical, 6x Assault) and equip them however you want depending on the opponent.

Or one way to look at it is simply this: SW have the more solid Tactical Squad unit with Grey Hunters, but Blood Angels have a lot more Flexibility with there's. One big factor many people seem to forget is that the more bodies you have in a Drop Pod list, the better off you will be. And between SW and BA, BA will win that one. BA Drop Pod Armies think can have a lot of success, but people need to realize that your not limited to run just 5x man squads with them. They can be equipped for Anti-Tank and Anti-Infantry very easily and I guarantee many opponents wouldn't have enough shooting to take out all of the Assault Squads before being hit in CC.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with other Drop Pod Armies but you can't say that it's BA vs Everyone else, as each Chapter has something different to bring. Currently, most people feel that BA can be a nasty Drop Pod list, and I have tested them out and so far I have done very well with them. SW are a good Drop Pod Army, but I think BA can easily be just as good as they are, just in a different way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm going to say Space Wolves over Blood Angels, though I haven't really gamed much this edition, just glancing over the rules the Space Wolves seem much more flexible of an army to go drop podding about. BA seems more like a game of rock-paper-scissors that you'll lose against many (most?) opponents.

I'm obviously not familiar enough with Salamanders because I'm not sure why they have been voted so high?

Salamanders have Twin-Linked Flamer weapons and with Vulcan as your HQ, you get Twin-Linked Flamers and Melta's, as well as Master Crafted Weapons.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ultras is the best. 2 rounds of full twin linked on all tactical is game changing. Reroll snap shots another turn to nape flyers. Then chose to pass or fail any moral check.

It's taking unnaturally long for a comment "bolters suck, marines suck" to take place. I'm starting to worry.

Bolters do suck, but I think the UM twin link all tactical weapons right?

Correct.

And the rest of your army re-rolls ones.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm going to say Space Wolves over Blood Angels, though I haven't really gamed much this edition, just glancing over the rules the Space Wolves seem much more flexible of an army to go drop podding about. BA seems more like a game of rock-paper-scissors that you'll lose against many (most?) opponents.

I'm obviously not familiar enough with Salamanders because I'm not sure why they have been voted so high?

Salamanders have Twin-Linked Flamer weapons and with Vulcan as your HQ, you get Twin-Linked Flamers and Melta's, as well as Master Crafted Weapons.

I think you mean reroll to wound flamers and mastercrafted meltas with Vulkan? It's better than nothing but I don't really see why it's going to catapult them up to being a great drop pod army.

I think it puts them behind SW and BA by a bit, probably ahead of UM, but not by much. Because Flamers and Meltas are what pod armies care about most.

Sallies are the poster child of droppod lists in the vanilla codex. I think that's why they get votes.